If it's not mandatory then it's not crunch, just simple voluntary overtime.
I'm not against personal freedom, when I had a business I worked up to 80 hours per week near Christmas.
As long as it's your choice then it's okay.
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If it's not mandatory then it's not crunch, just simple voluntary overtime.
I'm not against personal freedom, when I had a business I worked up to 80 hours per week near Christmas.
As long as it's your choice then it's okay.
If she's not a romanceable npc then I'm going to get a refund.
Now THAT'S pretty much a, as you like to say, strawman fallacy
You take my argument, exaggerate my points by way of analogy to the level of criminality and then act like what I'm saying is roughly the same.
I would say comparison.
But you would take any very offensive things becoming less offensive but still offensive nonetheless you want to use for the comparison, that's just the first one that came to my mind.
From what I understand that's not strawman fallacy.
Strawman fallacy is when you create a point to your opponent which is easy to defeat, like for exemple turning a person whole arguments and exemples into "giant conspiracy and there's some sinister reason".
Haha, that's exactly what you did by using an example which involves literal criminal behaviour and theft of property - as opposed to making an analogy that was similar to the argument I was making. You know, one that doesn't involve breaking the law and stealing from people.
Perhaps a better example would be a father who only plays football with his son once a month, leaving his son to feel neglected.
He decides he should do better and so the dad tells the son he'll do his best to play once a week.
He plays every week for 5 weeks but then other commitments mean he misses the sixth week.
Yeah, I think it's a good improvement and the effort and step in the right direction should be appreciated, rather than saying, 'You're still bad, just not as bad as before'.
What purpose would that even serve? Would like your son to say that to you? Would you think that's reasonable?
Honestly though, I don't mean to sound rude but I can't take your points seriously anymore. This and the whole 'charming' debacle have done me in
Maybe it's a language barrier thing and no one is to blame!I'll follow weirdwaynes advice and bid you good day. I'm not angry or anything, just so you know.
We were talking about the PR view about something considered reprehensible, so I still prefer my example of going from evil to lesser evil.
Or maybe we just don't give the same importance to crunch: I see it as highly reprehensible when you (if I understand it well) consider it just as barely abnormal.
Heh, yeah, like we don't have the same view of the word 'charming'.
You view it as meaning you feel about something as strongly in fiction as you would in real-life...and if someone does then they're the sociopath from Misery :s
It sadly goes around in circles and then ends up with 'we interpret these words extremely differently', lol.
A fully paid 6 day week for 6 weeks is reprehensible? Agree to differ.
Thanks for the discourse.
Yep, he meant FIFA, I forgot to correct it.
Also, "talking about Marynia's ass" was translated by Google directly from Polish. "Rozmawiać o dupie Maryni" - "To talk about Marynia's ass" - is a Polish saying that means "to talk about unimportant matters", "waste time on meaningless chat"
"To talk about Marynia's ass" - is a Polish saying that means "to talk about unimportant matters", "waste time on meaningless chat"
She's not real? You've broken my heart.
Learning this has made my day!Yep, he meant FIFA, I forgot to correct it.
Also, "talking about Marynia's ass" was translated by Google directly from Polish. "Rozmawiać o dupie Maryni" - "To talk about Marynia's ass" - is a Polish saying that means "to talk about unimportant matters", "waste time on meaningless chat"
I think crunch is just another way of saying "working extra hours". At least, that's the difinition I was using for the discussion.
I'd argue that when a manager asks someone to do extra hours, that person might feel pressure to agree - so while technically voluntary, it might not feel like it to the person doing the overtime. But then of course, others might even ask to do overtime, as you said.
But either way, I don't think that'd be good enough for that amazing PR benefit you were talking about.
Strange, I happen to think Marynia's ass is a very important matter"To talk about Marynia's ass" - is a Polish saying that means "to talk about unimportant matters", "waste time on meaningless chat"
As explained in this video, Marcin Iwinski never 'promised' no crunch. What he did do is offer an honest assessment to Jason Schreier, and then Jason turned around and stabbed him in the back. I had a modicum of respect in the past for Jason given his rigorous sourcing when he published an article, but this is just slander, and if I were Marcin I'd never give him another interview with CDPR again.
Real classy.
For me that's mostly arguing semantics.
Yes, he didn't promise no crunch, he DID say they would have a "non-mandatory crunch" policy.
Now they have "mandatory crunch."
That is still going against what he said the company planned to do.
Hardly Schreier being dishonest, the bloomberg article made it clear that it was about the mandatory overtime (the FORCED overtime) and when you say you will implement a non-mandatory crunch policy and then go and do exactly that YOU ARE in fact going AGAINST YOUR WORD, whether the word promise was actually used or not.
My position is that it sucks, but I can kind of understand it, with a game already being delayed that much and with such a long production cycle, the pressure to publish it on time without even more delays must be gigantic.
Some say it's wrong to point out that the people get compensated and that we are not talking about EA or Bethesda level of crunch, but I think that is a valid point to make.
Because mandatory overtime happens at a lot of workplaces and when it is over a specified amount of time and you get adequate compensation, it is manageable. Still sucks that it came to this, I think CDPR NEEDS to do better. They have high standards for their games, they want to make fans happy, but if you want to do the right thing, you can't half-arse it and stop at how you treat your employes.
I feel a lot of us fans are giving them a lot of leeway, because we want the game and we want to think of them as the good guys. Which they are most of the time, but as this shows, not always.
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And can I just add, because I read that here and everywhere else people are discussing the topic, that just because something is common practice and expected, doesn't mean it is acceptable or right.
If you are someone who wants to know what's going on and not just play the games and say fuck all to those working to bring them to us, there are dozens of well-sourced articles about the terrible crunch and generally bad working conditions at many, many major publishers.
Don't belittle that, don't like that's all fine and good, as long as it is standard.
If the standard is ridiculously unfair and wrong, then the standard needs to be changed.
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But it's not "them" -- it's the industry. And if you go back in time 4,000+ years, you'll find that the Ancient Greeks had to "crunch", too, in order to pull off the best theatrical performances they could for the yearly competition. That's part and parcel of the Arts, whether it's on stage, on film, part of some exhibition, or a video game. If you're going to achieve the goal of the Art, it's going require the artists to pull at times.
Those interested in a 9-5 job with a set schedule and plenty of vacation time should very seriously consider another career path.
The "crunch" that created the issue with this is the outright extortion that was happening with certain studios in certain countries once video games started becoming as financially successful (then more financially successful) than Hollywood. We're not talking a month of 6-day weeks...we're talking 80+ hour workweeks as a rule. We're talking outright abuse of workers and workers' rights without the offer of compensation, and the threat of termination and blacklisting if complaints were made. We're talking those same individuals then being summarily terminated anyway and denied not only their bonuses, but often their contracted salaries and severance packages. That's the "crunch" culture that initially started gaining all the attention. (Now, I strongly feel that people are simply latching on to whatever they happen to see that's the same shade of pink and calling it all "salmon".)
But I promise you, no matter how much work is done to avoid "crunch" in the future -- that's not how creative projects work.
Could not have said it better. Totally agree that people just have only ever heard the term "crunch" in articles totally condeming it in situations where its actually a problem and just "call the same shade of pink salmon."
I think a lot of it comes from young guys as well, who have either never had a job, or just have only ever had minmum wage dead end jobs (not that there is anything wrong with that) and so when they think of crunch there mind sort of unconsciously has that image of some asshole manager forcing them to slave away to keep their only source of income.
What I really, really hate about this whole scenario though? How the against crowd is using the devs families as a *weapon* to attack both the people who dont think this is a serious problem and to make it sound as bad as possible. Tons of memes and comments about "devs who havnt seen their families in weeks and just so despretly want to go home and see their children but are being slaved by their evil corporate masters to work 80 -100 hours weeks". Its disgusting, honestly...
I think everyone can aggree on the basic point of "it sucks, and would be nice if it didnt have to happen" but in saying that, I think everyone can agree that "would be nice if everyone in the world just got along and we had eternal peace and happiness for everyone forever". Both are true, but also just not in line with reality.
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This is a very fair sentiment, too!
I certainly am not implying that only the Arts suffer from times where people need to be putting in extra hours. Talk to any teacher, any police officer, any lawyer, any doctor or nurse...talk to anyone running their own business, any farmer or rancher, any one that lays concrete for a living...any parent raising children full-time, etc. There's overtime. There's lots of overtime.
But, due to the wonders of modern, human society -- we have other options! It is totally possible for people to simply focus on getting a relatively stable job in an office, working retail, working remotely, or in the service industry that not only pays a healthy living, but also comes with relatively stable hours and scheduled vacation time. (And even those jobs will wind up having to call for overtime now and then. However, it's not going to be anything like the careers I list above. A surgeon doesn't have the luxury of saying, "No, I'm not coming in now. Ask someone else." A teacher can't decide, "Marking these 250 examinations by Thursday is taking too much of my personal time; I'm not doing it." A farmer doesn't get to decide, "You've gotta be kidding me that taking in the harvest is going to require 14 hours per day. No way. Just do half." And an artist doesn't get to say, "Yeah, the film still needs 5 pickup scenes and it hasn't gone to post yet, so just release the rough cut as is. I want my weekends." Wrong careers for certain people. Luckily, there are many other paths to pursue. We must always be true to ourselves.)
That's a good summation of the mentality surrounding a lot of the heat and upset, and I think you're largely correct about the people that tend to voice these arguments being those that are speaking vestigially about it.
Although, it's also not that they're totally wrong! The 80-100 hours per week pulling families apart is exactly what was happening with certain studios. Plus, due directly to the obscene amounts of money flowing from it and the corruption that always results from that, it went on for over a decade. Anyone who tried to challenge it would never be able to afford the litigation. They would be drowned in the army of legal teams that were being handsomely paid by the very mega-corporations that had illegally seized the money the victims had earned for them. (It's the classic story, as old as time itself.)
That abuse, however, is a totally separate thing than the nature of the Arts. Inherently and inevitably, there's going to be a release date, and that date is the make-it-or-break-it for your project, whatever it is. It comes down to this: if the final result does not really speak to people, then all of the months or years of work put into it are going to mean very little in the end. So, that date of release is approaching...what do we do? Do we leave the obvious holes in the work? Or do we all chip in and pull to ensure we fulfill our vision? (I'll repeat, personally, that I have never in my life been involved in a film or stage production that didn't keep people working until 2-3 am on the weekends for at least 2-3 weeks. And we never saw a single cent in return for that extra time. And almost everyone came back for more. [Though it would have been really nice to get some extra pay -- especially when the box office struck it big.
])
Bro if I was offered 10% of CDPRs anual income as a bonus I would work gladly a day extra in a week.
I'm not saying of course that " crunch " is right but that's part of the industry.
I also am so annoyed of people who complain about crunch but then also complain when the game is delayed. Just pick one.
I liked the video from LastKnownMeal
Why doesn't Jason report all the good things and just jumps on the gun when there is some dirt to talk about? It's because CDPR is seen as sort of an industry leader when it comes to consumer friendly practices and these so called journalists are like vultures ready to decend on a corpse. Just going for clickbait and crap like that.
He didnt even mention the compensation or polish labour laws
I'm not saying of course that " crunch " is right but that's part of the industry.
I also am so annoyed of people who complain about crunch but then also complain when the game is delayed. Just pick one.
I liked the video from LastKnownMeal
Why doesn't Jason report all the good things and just jumps on the gun when there is some dirt to talk about? It's because CDPR is seen as sort of an industry leader when it comes to consumer friendly practices and these so called journalists are like vultures ready to decend on a corpse. Just going for clickbait and crap like that.
He didnt even mention the compensation or polish labour laws
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