Does this Potential Solution from CDPR to a Performance Bug Make Sense? (PS5)

[Dr_Messor]

Hey everyone! So, in playing Patch 2.01, I've come across a rather nasty bug: After around an hour of continuous gameplay, the game's performance degrades significantly, becoming readily apparent when firing shotguns or rapid-fire weapons (where it sort of micro-stutters) as well as in higher density regions (e.g. outside of Megabuilding H10, around the City Centre, etc). Now, saving and reloading seems to mostly reset things, but this is obviously not an ideal solution. After speaking with Support and doing an uninstall of the game, clearing the cache, and reinstalling it only to still have the issue, I was given the following instructions:

You may try to completely remove Cyberpunk 2077 data from your console - this is different from simply reinstalling.

Important: Make sure to back up your saves before this process and to follow all these steps - without skipping any.

Deleting games in your library

1. Navigate to the icon of Cyberpunk 2077.

2. While highlighting the icon, press the Options button on your controller to bring up this menu.

3. Select Delete and OK*.*

Deleting the games from system storage

1. Navigate to Settings on the home screen.

2. Select Storage*.*

3. Select System Storage*.*

4. Select Applications*.*

5. Press Options on your controller, then choose Delete*.*

6. With the desired boxes checked, choose Delete*.*

7. Confirm your selections by pressing OK*.*

Clean your console's cache

1. Turn off PlayStation 5. Do not enter Rest Mode.

2. Once the indicator light on top of your PlayStation 5 is off and has stopped blinking, unplug the power cable from the back of the console.

3. Wait a minimum of 30 seconds.

4. Plug the power cable back into PlayStation 5.

Afterwards, reinstall the game and see if the issue persists.



Now, I had some obvious questions about this, the first being that the options indicated by the instructions to delete the game from system storage don't actually exist as of the current PS5 UI, but I assume they just mean to go to saved data and delete what is there. My second issue though was that if I am backing up the save data, then deleting all the Cyberpunk data from the console, only to then redownload the saved data from the Cloud after reinstalling, won't the issues just resume once I start playing from those saves? Or, when you back up saved data to the cloud, does it not include the game profile/whatever data it is that the Rep I was speaking to believed might have to do with my issues (and thus would not simply be restored when I download my saves)?

I asked the Rep these questions, but they have not gotten back to me, so I'm hoping someone here can provide some guidance as I'd like to know the Rep's suggestion actually has a chance of working before having to subscribe to PS+ so I can backup my saves and then spending hours reinstalling everything. Additionally, if anyone has any suggestions on other possible solutions or the like, I'd be very appreciative if you'd let me know!

And just in case this matters, I am on the current patch on Performance mode with all the other settings being default.

Thanks!

 

[Crimsomrider]

Apologies for the long reply;

If you're experiencing lower and lower FPS over time which then starts producing stutters as well, which go away temporarily when you reload a save... it's then an in-game bug which they have to investigate and fix.

If I was you I'd do what Support asks just for the ease of mind, but if you have to pay for PS+ to do it then absolutely not. Personally I do not think at all that the above suggestion will do a thing because this issue was present on PC as well and same suggestions were offered to me when I reported them. And if it was an issue with the console itself then the terrible FPS would persist even after reloading a save while in-game. The fact it goes away upon reload indicates it's an in-game bug.

To prove this here's my own extensive testing I've done during 1.6. You can observe the FPS in the top-left corner (terrible FPS below 60 all the time, massive drops, stutters when using scan mode etc... but sleeping in a bed or reloading a save clears the issue entirely);

I'm surprised to see this "memory leak" bug mentioned on a console of all things, but from my extensive testing during 1.6 on PC when I first took notice of this bug immediately in ACT 1, I became convinced that some quest/event in the game does not end up being flushed properly after its completion so it keeps hogging the processing power in the background and thus causing this FPS drop over time permanently in a playthrough.

It's no secret that Cyberpunk is technologically an unstable game and there are issues which do persist throughout saves even. Similarly to how now the expansion's "whatever-core object" which can be placed in V's apartment is causing massive FPS drops and even save corruption for some people, boosting even their size up to over 20MBs.

• It would be better if you first test extensively how to reliably trigger it, then ask around if other players on PS5 can reproduce it (in 1.6 this was easily tested by going to Jig Jig Street and walking around there for 10-15 minutes to load as many NPCs as you can. If low FPS and stutters persist even after leaving the area by going to the Badlands where there's nothing to render, then absolutely it is an issue).
• Or if you have the expansion then start a new game by skipping straight to Phantom Liberty and test places for a while to see if the FPS drops and stutters still persist.

Personally however I'd ask you instead how far are you into the game, which main missions have you completed and how many side quests or Gigs. I can then keep a lookout as I play through the game and see if I can maybe catch a quest or event that does not get flushed properly from memory.

So far I'm not having any performance issues with 2.0 on PC, in comparison to 1.6. Optimization is wonderful, FPS is steady, zero stutters, zero obvious persistent frame drops even after going to NPC heavy areas such as Tom's diner.

Others explaining the same issue word for word on other platforms;

FPS drops over time

Hello all, I discovered a bizarre issue, but it appears others have already taken notice of this as well. Bear in mind, I have not started playing this game until recently, after 1.6. So I can't say for sure what the difference was before 1.6. Firstly, my specs: RTX 3080, Intel 12700k, 32gb of...

forums.cdprojektred.com

 

[Dr_Messor]

Apologies for the long reply;

If you're experiencing lower and lower FPS over time which then starts producing stutters as well, which go away temporarily when you reload a save... it's then an in-game bug which they have to investigate and fix.

If I was you I'd do what Support asks just for the ease of mind, but if you have to pay for PS+ to do it then absolutely not. Personally I do not think at all that the above suggestion will do a thing because this issue was present on PC as well and same suggestions were offered to me when I reported them. And if it was an issue with the console itself then the terrible FPS would persist even after reloading a save while in-game. The fact it goes away upon reload indicates it's an in-game bug.

To prove this here's my own extensive testing I've done during 1.6. You can observe the FPS in the top-left corner (terrible FPS below 60 all the time, massive drops, stutters when using scan mode etc... but sleeping in a bed or reloading a save clears the issue entirely);

I'm surprised to see this "memory leak" bug mentioned on a console of all things, but from my extensive testing during 1.6 on PC when I first took notice of this bug immediately in ACT 1, I became convinced that some quest/event in the game does not end up being flushed properly after its completion so it keeps hogging the processing power in the background and thus causing this FPS drop over time permanently in a playthrough.

It's no secret that Cyberpunk is technologically an unstable game and there are issues which do persist throughout saves even. Similarly to how now the expansion's "whatever-core object" which can be placed in V's apartment is causing massive FPS drops and even save corruption for some people, boosting even their size up to over 20MBs.

• It would be better if you first test extensively how to reliably trigger it, then ask around if other players on PS5 can reproduce it (in 1.6 this was easily tested by going to Jig Jig Street and walking around there for 10-15 minutes to load as many NPCs as you can. If low FPS and stutters persist even after leaving the area by going to the Badlands where there's nothing to render, then absolutely it is an issue).
• Or if you have the expansion then start a new game by skipping straight to Phantom Liberty and test places for a while to see if the FPS drops and stutters still persist.

Personally however I'd ask you instead how far are you into the game, which main missions have you completed and how many side quests or Gigs. I can then keep a lookout as I play through the game and see if I can maybe catch a quest or event that does not get flushed properly from memory.

So far I'm not having any performance issues with 2.0 on PC, in comparison to 1.6. Optimization is wonderful, FPS is steady, zero stutters, zero obvious persistent frame drops even after going to NPC heavy areas such as Tom's diner.

Others explaining the same issue word for word on other platforms;

FPS drops over time

Hello all, I discovered a bizarre issue, but it appears others have already taken notice of this as well. Bear in mind, I have not started playing this game until recently, after 1.6. So I can't say for sure what the difference was before 1.6. Firstly, my specs: RTX 3080, Intel 12700k, 32gb of...

forums.cdprojektred.com

No worries about the long response, I prefer completeness to brevity! With that in mind, I also apologize for the length of the following post.

Yeah, I didn't think the problem was on the console's end. Indeed, for another bug that's emerged with 2.01 (whenever I jump forward in certain places, my camera bobs up and down violently), I was asked if my console was properly ventilated (which it is) despite it being an issue that I can trigger as soon as I load up the game from the console having been just started and occurs only in some areas (and the areas it occurs in are actually low density areas like the Badlands and Pacifica). Nevermind that my fan never runs especially hard nor is the console becoming especially warm to touch, such that (and correct me if I'm wrong) I'm fairly certain I don't have to worry about overheating being an issue (though more on this later).

A further oddity was they also asked me to confirm I was on 2.01 despite the fact I had specified that when I sent in the report. So a number of questions that seem to spring up from left field.

I should also note that the lowered FPS is variable once the bug triggers in full, with low density areas letting me run around without issue (unless, again, I'm shooting enemies with shotguns or rapid-fire weapons), while other higher density areas show lowered framerates. But yes, the second I save and reload the framerate goes right back up and there's no issues with shooting any sort of weapon.

As for your question, I'm actually playing a game from a pre-2.0 save in which I had done literally everything in the game that was available before 2.0 (EXCEPT for getting the rewards for Roach Race), including doing all the Endings and their permutations. I've actually been thus far just farming kills to max out all my Skills while waiting for answers on the issues I've been having. As such, I'm afraid I can't narrow things down much on a specific trigger, I'm afraid. I will give the suggestion of going into a high density area and hanging around there to see if that causes issues a try; though, again, my issue seems more a function of time than anything else.

I suppose I could load up another save from 1.63 where I'm at the point where I've just completed The Heist, but that would require at least an hour of running around in a game file where I'm not actually making any "real" progress as a test, which I'd rather not do.

I have yet to go into Dogtown because I'm paranoid that maybe *that* will cause overheating (now that Tech Support put that notion into my mind and also having read some other PS5 users who have suffered from overheating) and/or some other vagary of the game will result in damage to my console. But, again, unless my console starts running like a jet engine, feels quite hot, and/or starts artifacting all over the place, that's not something I have to worry about, right? It may be a good time to mention I have OCD and, as such, am given to paranoia about such matters.

I also just want to enjoy Phantom Liberty running at ~60fps, especially for the videos the console records of when you unlock the various trophies (again, an OCD thing).

As such, I'm curious: Would you say I should just go ahead and start Phantom Liberty proper or should I wait until the next patch? I've been mulling over that decision for a while now and am curious what you (or any others) think.

 

[Crimsomrider]

Unfortunately this won't sound good, but what I would recommend is not continuing using a pre-2.0 save. It is not recommended whatsoever because of how many changes, reworks and additions have been done to the game.

Every single major content update so far broke pre-existing playthroughs and 2.0 is no different. All of the 2.0 stuff dumped onto pre-existing saves will break them in some shape or form or cause incredibly weird anomalies, as the stutters you are experiencing could very well be caused by all of the 2.0 changes/reworks being dumped onto your pre-existing playthrough.

For me for example; I was using my 100% save from 1.6 just to test 2.0's reworks until the expansion drops, after which I was going to start completely fresh. The entire outfit and wardrobe system broke and became unusable, half the stuff regarding my character did not respond and I even crashed for the first time ever in the middle of a fight with just 3 Scavs... I've got over 700 hours in that playthrough and my game never crashed once.

It's simply not recommended and with complete honesty I would not hold any hope that patches will fix the issue in your existing playthrough because not all fixes are retroactive. It's just how the game is and why many people still have bugs even if they're listed as fixed in patch notes, gotta start anew for most fixes to take effect and to avoid any bugs caused by reworks.

 

[SigilFey]

I would definitely see if the issue occurs in a new game. Not sure what's required to back up your saved games first on PS, but I'd also try to do that. Be sure to save your new game in a new saved game slot.

Unfortuantely, sometimes games that have been updated from previous versions will encounter unique issues, especially if the playtime on that savegame was extensive. It's possible that there are scripts attached to, say, weapons or skills that may have been active before the patch that are now "caught" in the RAM. I'm just theorizing, but if you try it with a brand new playthrough and the issues do not occur, then it's likely that the problem exists in your old save state.

Vice versa, if you begin a brand new game and the issue is there, that will indicate that there's a problem somewhere in the game or the Playstation model itself, and the team can begin working in that direction.

 

[Dr_Messor]

Thanks guys for the potential solution; I'll give it a try later today by starting a Phantom Liberty save to test if any of my issues (with the biggest being the performance bug) clear up and let you know.

That said, even if my issues do clear up with a new save, I do intend to complete Phantom Liberty with my old save as of this moment, which is mostly an OCD thing but also because I don't want to have to 100% a new game before playing Phantom Liberty (which I would have to do, because, again, OCD); there's also the matter of the terrible attribute check scaling, which I don't want to have to deal with and am hoping will be patched out. However, the one reason I would not do this is if you guys feel that my fears of using my old save could damage my console somehow are not just paranoia but actually have a basis in reality; if that is the case, then I'd start a new playthrough (provided that my test confirms that doing so actually fixes things). So, what do you guys think? Are my fears justified or are they or, as are most of my fears, just irrational?

 

[SigilFey]

Thanks guys for the potential solution; I'll give it a try later today by starting a Phantom Liberty save to test if any of my issues (with the biggest being the performance bug) clear up and let you know.

That said, even if my issues do clear up with a new save, I do intend to complete Phantom Liberty with my old save as of this moment, which is mostly an OCD thing but also because I don't want to have to 100% a new game before playing Phantom Liberty (which I would have to do, because, again, OCD); there's also the matter of the terrible attribute check scaling, which I don't want to have to deal with and am hoping will be patched out. However, the one reason I would not do this is if you guys feel that my fears of using my old save could damage my console somehow are not just paranoia but actually have a basis in reality; if that is the case, then I'd start a new playthrough (provided that my test confirms that doing so actually fixes things). So, what do you guys think? Are my fears justified or are they or, as are most of my fears, just irrational?

No -- no worries if you want to keep playing the old save. If there is a problem with it, it will be limited to the game experience. You won't damage a console by playing a potentially corrupted save. Only the save file itself would be affected.

Even if the issue can't be tracked down, worst case scenario is that you'd likely have to put up with the performance issues if you wanted to finish on the old save. (There's always a chance that it could bork your progress, but I imagine something like that would already have happened if it was going to.)

And, of course, there's a chance that it could just be an issue with the game, OS on the console, drivers, etc. In which case, your saved games may be perfectly fine.

 

[Dr_Messor]

I guess my biggest concern is that the memory leak or whatever is going on will overtax the CPU and/or GPU and possibly result in them overheating, but if that's not realistic as you say, then I guess I will be going with my old save.

Anyways, I tested out a fresh Phantom Liberty save and there was still a degradation of performance, but it took ~3 hours to occur. The FPS drops in areas like Urmland Street and outside Megabuilding H10 still occurred, but were not as severe. I never got the stuttering with Rapid-Fire weapons, but I did get it when using the Tech Shotgun. Again, these issues vanished upon reloading a save. So I suppose the outcome of my tests is that there is still an issue which needs to be fixed, but it's not as severe with a fresh 2.01 game. The jumping bug, however, was still present without change in the new 2.01 playthrough.

 

[SigilFey]

I guess my biggest concern is that the memory leak or whatever is going on will overtax the CPU and/or GPU and possibly result in them overheating, but if that's not realistic as you say, then I guess I will be going with my old save.

Anyways, I tested out a fresh Phantom Liberty save and there was still a degradation of performance, but it took ~3 hours to occur. The FPS drops in areas like Urmland Street and outside Megabuilding H10 still occurred, but were not as severe. I never got the stuttering with Rapid-Fire weapons, but I did get it when using the Tech Shotgun. Again, these issues vanished upon reloading a save. So I suppose the outcome of my tests is that there is still an issue which needs to be fixed, but it's not as severe with a fresh 2.01 game. The jumping bug, however, was still present without change in the new 2.01 playthrough.

I doubt there's any "memory leak". A memory leak is something that happens at the code level -- meaning it would affect every single person playing the game the same way. It's much more likely a problem with the save-state, the config on the console (OS version, APIs, drivers, etc.), or a sneaky issue with the game itself.

From the sound of it, I would be willing to bet it's scripts that are not terminating correctly in your save-state. When you transition between any sort of loading area, scripts will usually refresh. But, since a borked script that can't terminate gets refreshed, then you wind up with two separate instances of that script not terminating. As you play, and more refreshes happen, you wind up with 4 instances, then 8, 16, 32, etc., each one gobbling up more resources, bogging down the game's performance over time. If it's only in certain areas, then it could be simply a script exclusive to those world zones.

It's something that has affected lots of games over time. Bethesda games especially, in my experience. (Or -- I'm just totally wrong, of course. It's only a guess.) Either way, let us know if it seems to happen on a new game. That will help a lot to determine if it's caused by the save-state or the game itself.

 

[Dr_Messor]

I doubt there's any "memory leak". A memory leak is something that happens at the code level -- meaning it would affect every single person playing the game the same way. It's much more likely a problem with the save-state, the config on the console (OS version, APIs, drivers, etc.), or a sneaky issue with the game itself.

From the sound of it, I would be willing to bet it's scripts that are not terminating correctly in your save-state. When you transition between any sort of loading area, scripts will usually refresh. But, since a borked script that can't terminate gets refreshed, then you wind up with two separate instances of that script not terminating. As you play, and more refreshes happen, you wind up with 4 instances, then 8, 16, 32, etc., each one gobbling up more resources, bogging down the game's performance over time. If it's only in certain areas, then it could be simply a script exclusive to those world zones.

It's something that has affected lots of games over time. Bethesda games especially, in my experience. (Or -- I'm just totally wrong, of course. It's only a guess.) Either way, let us know if it seems to happen on a new game. That will help a lot to determine if it's caused by the save-state or the game itself.

Thanks for the info; as I said, I did try it with a new game (one where I chose the "Skip to Phantom Liberty" option) and it performed much better, but I still had decreased performance ~3 hours (as opposed to ~1 hour). It wasn't as bad as with my old save, with stutters with the Tech Shotgun but not rapid-fire weapons and the framerate drops in areas like outside Megabuilding H10 and Urmland street not being as dramatic; once again, saving and reloading completely undid the decreased performance.

 

[SigilFey]

Thanks for the info; as I said, I did try it with a new game (one where I chose the "Skip to Phantom Liberty" option) and it performed much better, but I still had decreased performance ~3 hours (as opposed to ~1 hour). It wasn't as bad as with my old save, with stutters with the Tech Shotgun but not rapid-fire weapons and the framerate drops in areas like outside Megabuilding H10 and Urmland street not being as dramatic; once again, saving and reloading completely undid the decreased performance.

Hm. That likely rules out the save-state idea.

I wonder if it's audio-related...

Try disabling music (if that's possible on PS). See if that alters anything. Then, turn music back on and disable sound effects. Etc. Try turning each audio channel off in turn, while turning all of the others back on.

My next guess would be shaders. See if lowering graphics to medium has any impact. (Or lower it by whatever settings the PS provides.)

Also -- you have followed Support's instructions that you list in the OP, correct? Just confirming.

 

[Dr_Messor]

Hm. That likely rules out the save-state idea.

I wonder if it's audio-related...

Try disabling music (if that's possible on PS). See if that alters anything. Then, turn music back on and disable sound effects. Etc. Try turning each audio channel off in turn, while turning all of the others back on.

My next guess would be shaders. See if lowering graphics to medium has any impact. (Or lower it by whatever settings the PS provides.)

Also -- you have followed Support's instructions that you list in the OP, correct? Just confirming.

Already toyed around with the graphics settings to no avail, I'll try audio tomorrow. I've also rebuilt my database for the PS5 as Support suggested trying that so I'll see if that did anything.

I have not done the initial suggestion because I'd rather not pay 15 dollars for a solution that probably won't work (which I'd have to do if I want to back up my saves, because Sony kinda pulled a dick move when it comes to save games for the PS5). What I'll do is beat Phantom Liberty and then just delete all the Cyberpunk data from my PS5 and reinstall if the issues haven't been resolved by then.

Post automatically merged: Oct 15, 2023

Alright, I checked and I can't really do anything with audio channels on PS5 and rebuilding the database did not resolve the issue.

 

[SigilFey]

Already toyed around with the graphics settings to no avail, I'll try audio tomorrow. I've also rebuilt my database for the PS5 as Support suggested trying that so I'll see if that did anything.

I have not done the initial suggestion because I'd rather not pay 15 dollars for a solution that probably won't work (which I'd have to do if I want to back up my saves, because Sony kinda pulled a dick move when it comes to save games for the PS5). What I'll do is beat Phantom Liberty and then just delete all the Cyberpunk data from my PS5 and reinstall if the issues haven't been resolved by then.

Post automatically merged: Oct 15, 2023

Alright, I checked and I can't really do anything with audio channels on PS5 and rebuilding the database did not resolve the issue.

Right. Setting options will be limited on consoles. I'd simply keep in touch with CDPR Support. Feel free to follow up with them about the issue if you don't hear back in around a week. (Normally, they'll respond within a few days.) Also, follow up if you notice any difference in the behavior.

I wish I could offer more, but I don't own a Playstation, myself.

When I asked about the suggestions in the OP, I was referring to Support's instructions:

You may try to completely remove Cyberpunk 2077 data from your console - this is different from simply reinstalling.

Important: Make sure to back up your saves before this process and to follow all these steps - without skipping any.

Deleting games in your library

1. Navigate to the icon of Cyberpunk 2077.

2. While highlighting the icon, press the Options button on your controller to bring up this menu.

3. Select Delete and OK*.*

Deleting the games from system storage

1. Navigate to Settings on the home screen.

2. Select Storage*.*

3. Select System Storage*.*

4. Select Applications*.*

5. Press Options on your controller, then choose Delete*.*

6. With the desired boxes checked, choose Delete*.*

7. Confirm your selections by pressing OK*.*

Clean your console's cache

1. Turn off PlayStation 5. Do not enter Rest Mode.

2. Once the indicator light on top of your PlayStation 5 is off and has stopped blinking, unplug the power cable from the back of the console.

3. Wait a minimum of 30 seconds.

4. Plug the power cable back into PlayStation 5.

Afterwards, reinstall the game and see if the issue persists.

^ Nothing here should cost anything at all. Most importantly, did you follow everything, in order, without skipping any of the steps?

 

[Dr_Messor]

Right. Setting options will be limited on consoles. I'd simply keep in touch with CDPR Support. Feel free to follow up with them about the issue if you don't hear back in around a week. (Normally, they'll respond within a few days.) Also, follow up if you notice any difference in the behavior.

I wish I could offer more, but I don't own a Playstation, myself.

When I asked about the suggestions in the OP, I was referring to Support's instructions:

You may try to completely remove Cyberpunk 2077 data from your console - this is different from simply reinstalling.

^ Nothing here should cost anything at all. Most importantly, did you follow everything, in order, without skipping any of the steps?

Actually to upload save files you have to have PS Plus, which costs money. You used to be able to download individual save files and such to USB on PS4, but the best you can do is a back up and restore with USB on the PS5, which I was not clear on if it would fix the problem (because if the back up and restore simply restored whatever was causing the problem, I would just be wasting time).

Regardless, they recommended I try the nuclear option, which I have done: I not only subscribed to PS Plus and uploaded things there, but I've done a factory reset of the console. Unfortunately, I did lose all my images and videos from my Trophies, but if it fixes the problem, it's a price I'm willing to pay (I also, naturally, have to redownload all of my other games). So, right now I'm downloading Cyberpunk 2077 for the third time since this all started and will test tomorrow whether it worked. And yes, I have followed all their instructions to a T.

Post automatically merged: Oct 17, 2023

Welp, tried it out with a new save and the performance issues are still there. So much for spending 15$ to try and fix things.

 

[SigilFey]

Actually to upload save files you have to have PS Plus, which costs money. You used to be able to download individual save files and such to USB on PS4, but the best you can do is a back up and restore with USB on the PS5, which I was not clear on if it would fix the problem (because if the back up and restore simply restored whatever was causing the problem, I would just be wasting time).

Regardless, they recommended I try the nuclear option, which I have done: I not only subscribed to PS Plus and uploaded things there, but I've done a factory reset of the console. Unfortunately, I did lose all my images and videos from my Trophies, but if it fixes the problem, it's a price I'm willing to pay (I also, naturally, have to redownload all of my other games). So, right now I'm downloading Cyberpunk 2077 for the third time since this all started and will test tomorrow whether it worked. And yes, I have followed all their instructions to a T.

Post automatically merged: Oct 17, 2023

Welp, tried it out with a new save and the performance issues are still there. So much for spending 15$ to try and fix things.

Sorry -- that sounds quite annoying. Players have to pay to upload a file!? Wow...the world has...gone places.

Look at it this way: if the issues exist in new game on a fresh installation, that means that we can rule out it being caused by potentially corrupted data or a uniquely problematic save-state. The problem almost certainly exists in the game files, the console files, or both. That should help Support to narrow down what's causing it.

I'd say spend another $15 on a pizza. Frustrations are always better with cheese.