FPP/TPP Perspective Thread OPEN. Be NICE.

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Personally I like TPP.
There is no problem if fighting in a limited space like PvP.
However, in the case of a vast open-world game, FPP thinks it will not fit.
For the open world with huge amount of information, FPP gets very tired because it has to move a lot of viewpoints.

Of course, I can also understand why the development team chose FPP.
I want you to be able to switch between FPP and TPP at any time. Like Skyrim.

I get motion sickness with FPP.
So basically I would like to play with TPP,
I'd like to switch to FPP if I find an object or NPC that I care about.

Personally, I think that there are a certain number of people who are not good at FPP in Japan.
In fact, one friend gave up on buying this game, crying for reasons that FPP is not good.

I'm very excited about this game and I want to share feelings with as many people as possible.
I hope that this feeling will be visible to developers.

Thx
 
YAY double standards. And suddenly poorly made FPP in Obsidian game without animations of character at all and with a gun that sticks out in the middle of the screen without moving is okay, realistic and not immersion breaker at all. This thread is about perspective I'll remind.


Technically they didn't lie here, we have driving in FPP :p


And that's some right words. So this not game's fault that people are unable to do this.

First off obsidian game is not based on a pen and paper Cyberpunk 2077 is.
Second if the game cd projekt red is making was related to a their original IP and not in a pen and paper i had no complaint to make.
Third i were never opposed to first person i am opposed to first person only because it reduces the game to be a first person shooter that in the case of cyberpunk 2077 because is based on a pen and paper will reduce the game to be vastly different in mechanics and in spirit than the pen and paper counterpart and this was already evident in the gameplay demo. You are right in one thing i dislike both first person in cyberpunk 2077 and in the obsidian game.

Also say something like "The game is also TPP you can see your character on inventory screen you can drive in TPP!" is just an half truth and i consider half truth no different than lies.
But there is a fact here. TPP make customization pointless and customization were one of the key points both in the pen and paper and in the annuncement of cyberpunk 2077.
This direction flaw as i can see it is forcing the game to be a player driven experience instead of a character driven experience like any game based on a P&P should be. Do that and you will reduce the game to a themepark all visual style but not actually the spirit of the pen and paper game.
 
First off obsidian game is not based on a pen and paper Cyberpunk 2077 is.

PnP mechanics belong in PnP games. That's it. Outside PnP it's fair game

Third i were never opposed to first person i am opposed to first person only because it reduces the game to be a first person shooter

Wrong. FPS are a different beast entirely. Unless.. to you.. if it's first person and has guns, it's an FPS.

in the case of cyberpunk 2077 because is based on a pen and paper will reduce the game to be vastly different in mechanics and in spirit

Making it first person and real time does not "reduce" it in any way... if anything it makes the Cp 2020 world feel more alive and personal.

Do that and you will reduce the game to a themepark all visual style but not actually the spirit of the pen and paper game.

The "spirit" of cyberpunk 2020 is not rolling a dice.. it's the lore, the style, and everything that sets it apart from other PnP games
 
PnP mechanics belong in PnP games. That's it. Outside PnP it's fair game



Wrong. FPS are a different beast entirely. Unless.. to you.. if it's first person and has guns, it's an FPS.



Making it first person and real time does not "reduce" it in any way... if anything it makes the Cp 2020 world feel more alive and personal.



The "spirit" of cyberpunk 2020 is not rolling a dice.. it's the lore, the style, and everything that sets it apart from other PnP games
FPS mechanics because FPP player usually don't like too much skill and stats affecting their aim to hit things you can see that in this forum too people claiming i should hit if i aim right in fact many posters are more interested to have an open world shooter than a rpg you can also seen people around the forum calling the game FPS.
Personal experience is something in this case tied with player agency yes the pen and paper has a setting and a style but equal part of the identity is the gameplay itself that in the case of cyberpunk 2077 felt just like a generic shooter. "And you can see many pen and paper fan complaining about it in the mechanical faithfullness thread."

Outside of pen and paper is fair game well.. Look how it ended with sword coast legends there are people such as me that want to keep the identity and the continuity from then pen and paper to the videogame that is lacking in to gameplay at the point it kinda breaks it.
 
The "spirit" of cyberpunk 2020 is not rolling a dice.. it's the lore, the style, and everything that sets it apart from other PnP games

Yet, like all PnP, it have his own setting rules and so on CP2020 didn't make Cyberpunk genre, CP2020 is base on that genre that started since 1960, and when game is based on PnP, it is good to follow that rules.

Obsidian didn't follow any PnP rules for Pillars of Eternity, it was their own IP, so they did what they want and make system they think is good for there own RPG, Owlcat didn't take Pathfinder name and change system to something totaly different, they take Pathfinder PnP IP and make good game based on that PnP game follow PnP really good, Rogue Factor take Mordheim IP and make Mordheim: City of the Damned great game that follow PnP really good.

CP2077 is based on CP2020 PnP so is it wrong to expect that game will follow PnP rules and setting? CDPR say they going to make game close to PnP and will stay true to the rules and settings.

Game like VtmB was based on PnP and did good job to stay true to source material.
 
FPS mechanics because FPP player usually don't like too much skill and stats affecting their aim to hit things

What's a "FPP player"? but that is pure speculation on your part. I don't speak for other people but 2 of my latest bought games are Battlefield 5 and Pathfinder:Kingmaker and i enjoy them both.
cyberpunk 2077 felt just like a generic shooter

It felt anything but generic to me though. I'm curios if you watch a first person combat encounter in VtM:B dosen't it look generic to you?
Outside of pen and paper is fair game well.. Look how it ended with sword coast legends

I'm not really up-to-date on that, but i seem to recall :mechanical faithfulness: wasn't that high on that game's long list of problems
Game like VtmB was based on PnP and did good job to stay true to source material.

It looks pretty damn close to the source material to me but who am i? right? Then again it's not like they have someone that designed the PnP game basically working alongside them..wait..
 
What's a "FPP player"? but that is pure speculation on your part. I don't speak for other people but 2 of my latest bought games are Battlefield 5 and Pathfinder:Kingmaker and i enjoy them both.

Yes, here too. Well, not so much BF V because of many reasons, but, yes, I am the same.

There is a habit from certain users to group players into easily-labelled categories. This is neither accurate nor very useful.

Many, many people enjoy X-Com, Bloodlines and Battlefield. Skyrim and World of Warcraft and Call of Duty. Millions of us.

If your argument depends on forcing people into one or the other of these categories so as to prove the legitimacy of your view on why RPGs are one thing and not another, players like us are inconvenient, because we aren't just one thing or another.

Now, off to play some God of War and then AC Odyssey and -then- see how Kingmaker is faring bug-wise. My eldest is play PoE2 Deadfire and I want to do my DLC run on that but am waiting for a sale.
 
This is neither accurate nor very useful.

That’s why I’ve tried to push it that most people aren’t really that shallow, that they wouldn’t accept desing that defies the ordinary every-game design if it’s well done. But while some people lump FPSers into one (and I’ve done it too to underline a point), I too get usually shot down with the same reasoning.
 
Well, when they say in an interview: "All classes (or roles, I don't remember which word was used) will be there." I'm about sure what most people understand is "You'll be able to choose from every classes of the source game" not "Most of the classes will be played by NPC".

And I have an hard time convincing myself that they really though that people would really think that would means that "every classes will be there because of NPC", as it's a moot point, no one really cares about what classes non playable NPC will have.

PS: I think I finally was able to translate my example: A politician promising that no taxes will raise and who then raise duties because they are not "technically" taxes. I don't know if that example works good in english, but in french it's a good one.

I love the work you've done on that point about "politicians" -- I think I get exactly what you're saying now. ;) And yes, I can see how it may feel that way if a game happens to deliver an experience other than what I expected or wanted. But the simple fact of the matter is:

No one ever promised a single thing. Nothing was guaranteed; nothing was set in stone. Ever. In fact, CDPR went to great lengths to constantly say: "Everything is subject to change, folks! What you see here may not reflect the final game! Everything is subject to change!"

So, while the sentiment is understandable, it doesn't support the argument that, "The game 'owes' us XYZ." To clarify, the only time this would be valid is if, for example, the game releases, then lists features that don't actually appear in the game. If the "box art" (actually being sold in stores) claims that players can drive 20 vehicles, but there are only 3 in the game -- that would be a lie. If it claims that every NPC is persistent, and it actually streams them in randomly -- that would be a lie.

Planning to do something and sharing that plan is not a promise or guarantee that it will be there. Later needing to change or remove parts of that plan is not lying. This is simply a general misunderstanding of how the creative industry works. It's also why a lot of companies choose to keep everything under lock and key until a game (or film, or book, etc.) is nearing completion.

Personally, I like regular updates and being able to watch development take shape. But, I'm also a total hypocrite for saying this, as I do sometimes run people out of my theatre if they stumble into rehearsals.


This is why, while I'm certainly disappointed by what we've seen I'm not upset by it.

Then again I don't send death threats to people as has become commonplace on the net :cool:

It's good to know I can drive without fear of snipers! :p (At least...not your snipers. o_O)

And that's life at large, I'm sure you'll agree. Always a disappointment when something I'm truly looking forward to suddenly seems to take a turn in a wild direction. I remember the countless "X-COM" remakes over the years. I'd often be so excited about one project or another, only to have it cancelled and abandoned...or to finally play it and be like, ::faceplant:: Then, the XCOM: Enemy Unknown reboot came out, and I was like: :D...:oops:...:unsure:...:giggle:

It definitely wasn't "the old X-COM", but it was righteous fun in its own right. (Besides, now we have Xenonauts, too, so I'm a happy camper.)


This is part of why I hate the words "immersion" and "immersive." They're meaningless buzzwords because of the sheer range of possible interpretations. Is it immersive because I can see a character pushing a button, immersive because I can chop wood or forge a sword, or is it immersive because I can see the tank shell right before it turns my head into a fine mist? And, sadly, in game design these tend to be vastly different approaches.

Nailed it on the nose -- "buzzword." That's exactly why it keeps popping up. It's tricky to manage language like that, too. Difficult to decide when a word has lost its effect and impact and become so vestigial that it's actually frustrating and misdirecting an audience rather than engaging them. Honestly, it's a word that does far more harm than good for publications in my estimation.

I'd rather have had the devs say: "We've opted for first-person because we want to put the player right on the sun-baked pavement of Night City. We want them to experience the scale and action from a purely personal perspective, to watch the bullets come right at them. We want the player face-to-face with the world, never knowing what's around the next corner or lurking behind them. It lets us highlight the finer details in the environment. Playing in first-person allows us capture the intimacy and energy that we're going for."


That's just it: You're not talking about most people in general. You're talking about certain specific groups of people, who happen to make up a minority of the human species. You just don't get outside of those groups enough to realize they are a minority.

I argue that it's all moot. It's not possible to actually determine a "majority". I can arrange a survey or poll to give me any result I want. The only thing that matters in the end is whether the game appeals to me.

If I don't like it...10,000 people insisting it's the best thing ever won't change my mind. If I do like it, 10,000 people insisting it's rubbish won't matter, either.
 
Nailed it on the nose -- "buzzword." That's exactly why it keeps popping up. It's tricky to manage language like that, too. Difficult to decide when a word has lost its effect and impact and become so vestigial that it's actually frustrating and misdirecting an audience rather than engaging them. Honestly, it's a word that does far more harm than good for publications in my estimation.

I'd rather have had the devs say: "We've opted for first-person because we want to put the player right on the sun-baked pavement of Night City. We want them to experience the scale and action from a purely personal perspective, to watch the bullets come right at them. We want the player face-to-face with the world, never knowing what's around the next corner or lurking behind them. It lets us highlight the finer details in the environment. Playing in first-person allows us capture the intimacy and energy that we're going for."

I think, in part, buzzwords serve a purpose: They let the players know a general region of a direction has been chosen when the devs themselves honestly have no idea what they're going to do. A way of avoiding "we don't know" and all of the problems that statement would bring, while still indirectly saying "we don't know."

I argue that it's all moot. It's not possible to actually determine a "majority". I can arrange a survey or poll to give me any result I want. The only thing that matters in the end is whether the game appeals to me.

If I don't like it...10,000 people insisting it's the best thing ever won't change my mind. If I do like it, 10,000 people insisting it's rubbish won't matter, either.

I'd argue it's a moot point for an entirely different reason: It's impossible for video games to properly replicate human senses. We're arguing over which viewpoint best replicates human senses, when at the end of the day that ultimately amounts to "which one is the least horribly inaccurate."
 
Kingmaker was bugged, but since the game came out developer fixes almost all game breaking bugs and improve game a lot, also there is not game that is not bugged, point is that Pathfinder Kingmaked follow PnP rules really really good it stay true to source material .

I also think that CP2077 is generic FPS who borrow few abilitys from other FPS games, as i say many time nothing in CP2077 demo was new or interesting during combat, enemy take load of bullets to die, Slow-Motion/bullet-Time was in Fear, Max payne, Bullet storm, Vanquish...., sliding on the ground Destiny also Vanquish, Smart gun is like Soldier 76 special ability from Overwatch aim bot.

I want like all other to see new gameplay that show more of RPG how that system work do stats and skills have impact on your character and combat.
 
I'd rather have had the devs say: "We've opted for first-person because we want to put the player right on the sun-baked pavement of Night City. We want them to experience the scale and action from a purely personal perspective, to watch the bullets come right at them. We want the player face-to-face with the world, never knowing what's around the next corner or lurking behind them. It lets us highlight the finer details in the environment. Playing in first-person allows us capture the intimacy and energy that we're going for."
And: "FPP allows us more flexibility when it comes to camera control, movement and usage of augmentations/skills during action sequences."
 
What's a "FPP player"? but that is pure speculation on your part. I don't speak for other people but 2 of my latest bought games are Battlefield 5 and Pathfinder:Kingmaker and i enjoy them both.


It felt anything but generic to me though. I'm curios if you watch a first person combat encounter in VtM:B dosen't it look generic to you?


I'm not really up-to-date on that, but i seem to recall :mechanical faithfulness: wasn't that high on that game's long list of problems


It looks pretty damn close to the source material to me but who am i? right? Then again it's not like they have someone that designed the PnP game basically working alongside them..wait..

Poor wording there i written FPP players instead i meant FPS players.

And yes it felt generic and full of the FPS mechanics that are already seen dozen times in FPS all around things like "Regenerating health,Bullet sponginess,Hollywoodesque shooting,double jump magic."

Nobody is arguing the game dosn't "look" close to the source material but in the gameplay dosn't feel like it not even close to the spirit of it.

The game could had been perfectly in FPP and give a degree of feel and continuity from the pen and paper in the gameplay even if right now there is not a true not arguable reason the game could not have a toggle to make happy both parts the problem is the demo felt like your average FPS and well far from the feel of the pen and paper.

To bring up how i felt.
from Cyberpunk 2020
to Cyberpunk: Micheal bay edition.

And no maybe nothing was promised but was actually told in a tone that seemed like something we could count on "You will be able to print your character shreet from the game to use in the pen and paper" were never my words to start with it easy dodging the point telling "Hey they never promised a single thing".
 
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Poor wording there i written FPP players instead i meant FPS players.

I know what you meant. It's still speculation and seems based on the false assumption that people that like fps games don't enjoy rpg's.

Nobody is arguing the game dosn't "look" close to the source material but in the gameplay dosn't feel like it not even close to the spirit of it.

i don't understand what you're asking for here. You do know that in the PnP combat encounters are arguably faster and deadlyer than what we saw in the trailer.. to ask for something like that takes courage. It would be like Dark Souls Cyberpunk edition only in first person.

And no maybe nothing was promised but was actually told in a tone that seemed like something we could count on "You will be able to print your character shreet from the game to use in the pen and paper" were never my words to start with it easy dodging the point telling "Hey they never promised a single thing".

They said they would like to have that feature not that it will. And who knows, maybe it's still a posibility, in a future edition of the pen'n paper game
 
The way I see it, a number of people that are saying the gameplay - which for the record CP staff didn't want to release to the public to start with - is "generic FPS" and "nothing new" and not faithful to the PnP RP; want a stop start, turn based mechanics heavy game where resolving a fight could come down to "You're skills were too low or you rolled bad, now you're dead" or where resolving a fight can take a better part of their 1 hour a day play time. (Yes, I'm taking a moment to consider people who may only be able to spare one or two hours to play games)

But wait. Some of those people also want to be able to watch their character moving around and executing cool moves while seeing where all the enemies and environment objects and such are.

Now, I do get there are advantages to having a grid map during fights in DnD but generally speaking when I'm playing DnD or any other Pen and Paper RPG, I am not seeing my character, or the characters of my fellow players, or the NPC's. I might have a mental image of how my character looks and a feeling for how they act but I'm not seeing them in their latest outfit 90% of the time the game is being played.
I mention the above, because I don't see how TPP is "more valid" a visual choice for an RPG than FPP.
CP 2077 could be 100% text and still be an RPG. It wouldn't be a great video game, but that's not my point.
 
false assumption that people that like fps games don't enjoy rpg's.

That's true, or so I'd like to thinnk, but it certainly seems that way at times when discussing these things. If you start talking about RPG mechanics, you often see people bringing up their nose and starting puff about time machines and nostalgia glasses and "you just want turnbased, which is obsolete".
 
Well, you kind of do just want turnbased...right? I mean, in general, for RPGs?

Well, yeah. Basically. But in my defence, I've been thinking about real time equivalents that could potentially be satisfying in a similiar fashion.

Let's keep the context it mind here, though. Compromise is all I am able to get here, if I'm lucky.
 
Well, yeah. Basically. But in my defence, I've been thinking about real time equivalents that could potentially be satisfying in a similiar fashion.

Let's keep the context it mind here, though. Compromise is all I am able to get here, if I'm lucky.

True that.

( Sort of OT - Copper Dreams, looking good. Weird, but good. Isometric, TPP Cyberpunk game....)
 
Well now they can play with words, yes we say we going to be close to PnP, but we in fact meant just world setting, and not the game rules, and so on.

Game don't need to be turn based, Imagine better Version of VtmB, yes game was buged and had a lot of problems, but patch made all that better and it was made 14 years ago, but game is good example of PnP to PC.

Combat was fast it was brutal, skills had impact on your character in every aspect, if your lock picking skill was low you didn't unlock doors just by winning in some mini game, your shooting was tie to your firearm skill, you have few different clans to role play, Malkavian probably the most unique.

And game work great in TPP/FPP dialgoue was in FPP but from start to end you could play in TPP or FPP.
 
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