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FPP/TPP Perspective Thread OPEN. Be NICE.

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Sardukhar

Moderator
#1
Okay, we're opening this contentious topic up for discussion.

Couple things.

1. Be NICE. If you cannot be NICE, do not post. If we catch you being not-NICE, you will get Warned or worse. So, NICE. Pleasant, polite, friendly.

2. CDPR is hard-committed to First Person. We are free to discuss merits and flaws of perspectives but remember they have literally millions of dollars and thousands of hours into this. They are in pretty much every sense artists and this is their vision. Appreciate that.

Keeping those things in mind, I'll post this quote from Lilayah on the subject and let you have at it.

FPPTPP2.png




FPP/TPP showing up in other discussions is fine as well, but if they divert heavily into perspective, we'll probably merge them to here.
Have fun! Be nice!

Ponynator.png
 
#2
just as long as gameplay is done well with the RPG genre and mechanics in (heavily) mind, and the game doesn't work like your regular FPS adventure (i.e. Far Cry's, GTA V in first person, Fallout 4... etc.), I have no issues. And frankly, the issues would highly likely be pretty much the same regardless of the perspective (unless there was an option for point'n click gameplay), so there's that too.

Oh, but I lied... I have one issue related to the chosen and held on perspective. Remove the cutscenes and have all of them happen in FPP during gameplay. If there's dialog in them, let the player choose what to say or stay silent. It feels disjointed and unnecessary to "sometimes" jump outside the character, and worse yet, talk without player input.

I'd also like the overall movement to be slower than in the demo (perhaps getting faster via a governing stat/skill), but that's a mechanics discussion and less about perspective itself.

That is all.
 

Sardukhar

Moderator
#3
I'd also like the overall movement to be slower than in the demo (perhaps getting faster via a governing stat/skill), but that's a mechanics discussion and less about perspective itself.

That is all.
I'd also like a speed control - mouse wheel or something. I find in FPP that walk-run-jog speed difference really helps it feel more real to me.

And head bounce is super important. You have to get just the right amount.
 
#4
I'd also like a speed control - mouse wheel or something. I find in FPP that walk-run-jog speed difference really helps it feel more real to me.
Yeah, mousewheel speed-adjustment while moving would be really nice to have.

I think one of those Splinter Cell games had that.

Also yes. I want head bobbing while moving, so adjustment for its intesity (from zero to what ever is max) would also be a good addition.
 

Garrison72

User
#5
So I have a question. When they say they've done this for narrative reasons, I'm curious what they mean by this. Is it so that the player feels more immersed in their character in FP? As we get closer to release It'd be nice if they expounded on this a bit.
 

Hopefnn

User
#6
I for one just like to add that I really adore the FPS direction CDPR took with this game and their reasoning behind it.
Third-Person is for puppeteering a character from the couch,
First-Person is for being that character himself and much more personal in my view.
It gets my blood much more pumping and I can´t wait to play it.
 
#8
For me TPP is more immersive and alive feeling.
I've always top down or isometric. Third person allows for better use of RPG mechanics since the game isn't fooling the player to believe he is the one doing the task (and thus the design almost always being done to reflect that), but FPP can work well for that too... provided the developer has the balls to design it so.
 

gaktem

User
#9
So I have a question. When they say they've done this for narrative reasons, I'm curious what they mean by this. Is it so that the player feels more immersed in their character in FP? As we get closer to release It'd be nice if they expounded on this a bit.
They design their dialog system around ffp to make it more gameplay driven during cutscenes. Rumor is in some quests the npcs will react to what you looked at during cutscenes. This can open up more dialog choices and consequences.
 
#10
but FPP can work well for that too
I played many FPP games, i don't say FPP is bad just for me TPP is much better especially for RPG.

I always like option that let me pick, VTMB was good game good RPG many of my friends play it in FPP i try and didn't like it.

I also didn't play last Resident Evil 7 and only reason was FPP :D
Post automatically merged:

dialog system around ffp to make it more gameplay driven during cutscenes
But it didn't look much different than Witcher 3 dialog.
 
#11
I played many FPP games, i don't say FPP is bad just for me TPP is much better especially for RPG.
Yeah, that's fair. I would've preferred TPP as well. Especially with the camera drawn far back and point'n click gameplay.

Just saying that if an RPG in FPP is well designed, it doesn't work like action shooter like all those other games (VtMB works very much like that). And in the best case scenario, it might even reach out to be almost as good as the TPP variant (depending on how the mechanics, gameplay speed and pacing, and HUD's are handled).
 

BaalNergal

User
#12
*sees post open*
*writes epic rap battle of TPP vs. FPP*
*has isometric win the rap battle just to screw with people*
*reads the first post*
*throws the rap battle out the window*
*puts troll hat back in closet*

I'm curious about these narrative reasons they picked. I can think of plenty of technical reasons, but narratively it's already proven a cyberpunk story can be told in isometric and TPP. So what are the narrative reasons for this one?
 

Rawls

Moderator
#13
Is it so that the player feels more immersed in their character in FP? As we get closer to release It'd be nice if they expounded on this a bit.
Best I can understand it's a mix of immersion through (1) putting the player in the visceral experience of the character's shoes in a dense and vertical city (TPP doesn't work as well in tight spaces) plus (2) the new dialogue & "directive scene" system they use, which is contextual depending on what the character is looking at and (3) in game implementation and explanation of the HUD. These three specific things have been mentioned, and I think encompass at least a part of what they mean by "narrative reasons." There may be other things too ...

Sources:
(a) https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-it-went-with-first-person-for-cyberpunk-2077
(b) https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/0...77-cd-projekt-addresses-first-person-backlash
(c) https://www.vg247.com/2018/06/22/cy...mance-controversial-decision-go-first-person/
 
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#14
Head bobbing... the head doesn't "bob" when one runs or jogs... I guess if one prances it moves up and down with your body... and even if the head moves, the eyes adjust to the movement, so the "head bobbing" (camera movement) is totally unnatural, as unnatural as the FOV, or turning, or gun handling/perspective in 1st person view.
 

Poison19

User
#15
Well, perspective doesn't really bother me much. But from my experience in RDR2 which has both TPP and FPP i can say that i feel uncomfortable with TPP in buildings, espesically in tiny shacks. Your character literally covers whole screen and you can't really examine little details in the building. And i think Cyberpunk 2077 will contain a lot of close space in mega building or even on streets, so i think CDPR doing right by choosing FPP. Another question is quality of FPP in Cyberpunk 2077 but i have faith in CDPR.
 
#16
Pro FPP:
-Immersion, but only in VR as normal FPP is way too different that how actual natural view work (as SystemShock7 said). Also need to avoid strange body animation, the worst example being one of the most common: Close combat in FPP view making your character having it's hands/arms in it's field of view the whole time is ridiculous.

Against FPP:
-Bad character spacialisation, and view to follow the action in general because of the differences between FPP and how natural view works.
-Uninteresting close combats compared to TPP.
-Lessen the interest of taking care of how your character actually looks.
-Very often animations in FPP are utterlly ridiculous.
 
#17
uncomfortable with TPP in buildings, espesically in tiny shacks. Your character literally covers whole screen and you can't really examine little details in the building. And i think Cyberpunk 2077 will contain a lot of close space in mega building or even on streets
RDR2 is wild west, also from demo we see that CP2077 is not so small and there are a lot of room on the street and in buildings, many TPP games set in urban area Max Payne, Resident Evil 4-5-6, Mass Effect, Dead Space game that take place on big space ship and TPP work well there.

Again i think Night City is not problem it is big and have a lot of space on street and inside of the buildings.
 

Spockprime

User
#18
Two thoughts:
  1. First or third person doesn't matter to me. I've played games both ways, and loved and hated both ways. Doing things for narrative reasons is great only if the narrative adds to, rather than detracts from, the enjoyment of the game. Having a walking narrative with a filthy baron carrying a demon baby was entertaining only because it was well done and fit the context of a really good story. If their narrative reasons are like this, then I'm happy. If not, then I'm not.
  2. That's a pretty strong expression of intention by CDPR. I hope that reflects well placed confidence rather than an obstinate refusal to listen to feedback. I don't normally associate CDPR with the latter, but I guess we'll see.
 

Tree_Fox

User
#19
Love the decision to go with a FPP! It actually feels like I'm V, rather than looking at the back of V's head.

FPP is way easier to get immersed in than when your in TPP.

Not to mention the weird camera positions caused by going into smaller rooms in TPP.

CDPR made a great decision here in my book!
 

Dreadpoet

User
#20
It may sound silly, but I sometimes get frustrated with TPP. My character often gets in the way (view) of action or of scenery. As well, I prefer the theatrical nature of FPP.