How to beat poison decks?

[vancouver3]

Another way you can try to overcome poison, especially double ball, is to time your defender unit.

I meant ultimately, like many mentioned already, there just isn't much you can can do about the poison deck. You just stick with your strategy and hope for the best.

 

[ZeDango]

is there anything happening about poison? /support from people even if they run the deck (i know nobody wants their deck nerfed). There's no counter to it i have looked for card that makes another card immune and cant find one, i try to use a defender it just gets stolen by yens innovocation, i run gremist in skellige deck but he just gets killed straight away before i can refresh his ability and i had to change my whole deck to put more alchemy cards in which has basicly ruined it anyways. i have put purifies in but then all im doing is stopping my units being killed while they connstantly put out 4-6 provision units with 4+ power every turn and im not getting points on the board so it doesnt work anyways. i checked on other forums and people are saying use this deck or swarm etc, but last time i checked before a matchup you dont know what deck the opponent is playing so i try to balance my deck to face all factions, but now ive changed it to try and beat NG poison i get trashed by everyone else and still dont beat NG. I just find it all a bit mad these units which are so cheap for NG are 4-6 power and are effectively doing 50% damage to your units, i mean purify i wouldnt even call a counter as all your doing is saving some of your units whilst they rack up the points and putting all those purify in my deck has completely ruined the synergy anyways and useless against other factions. i just dont get it. someone please help with ideas or have information wether they are changing anything about poison? i love the challenge of building a deck in this game but i have been thinking about this for a week and its driving me mad, i understand these games are hard to balance and i think they do a decent job but i just don't understand this, i mean could it not at least be changed to order rather than deploy? would probably still be crazy hard to beat. This has broke the game for me and i think im very open minded and fair when it comes to game balancing, PLEASE HELP!

Revel in the damage
Go skelligah

 

[Tyr117]

Revel in the damage
Go skelligah

True, Bloodthirst Skellige is really good Vs Poisen NG.

 

[quintivarium]

I play mainly Skellige, and am about 90% vs. poison decks (by playing, replaying, and re-replaying my defender) — unless the deck contains yennefer:invocation or philipa eilhart, in which case I am 0%. But then I’m 0% against either yennefer or philipa regardless of the deck they’re in. Which suggests to me that (at least for Skellige) poison is not the problem card.

Even with other factions, I think the poison mechanism is fine — the real problem is that with NG and SY it is too prevalent. If no faction had access to no more than 5 poison applications, poison would be a good deterrent to one card wonder decks. With limited applications, there is reasonable risk of a poison card bricking with no partner, and a need to be selective in targets.

 

[Guest 4375874]

Even with other factions, I think the poison mechanism is fine — the real problem is that with NG and SY it is too prevalent. If no faction had access to no more than 5 poison applications, poison would be a good deterrent to one card wonder decks. With limited applications, there is reasonable risk of a poison card bricking with no partner, and a need to be selective in targets.

That IS the problem lol It still comes down to poison because the mechanic itself can be reworked so having numerous cards doesn't grant you too much favor. Also Yennefer's Invocation and Phillipa aren't available to any other faction. Playing SK you would be fine, that faction recently got a buff and Lippy is one of the nuisances right up there with NG's double ball. I'm also going to go out on a limb here and guess you're playing a meta deck...

Either way the fact that you're at 0% against Yennefer and Phillipa says enough because no faction should have such a wide gap in victory over another.

 

[Guest 4368268]

I play mainly Skellige, and am about 90% vs. poison decks (by playing, replaying, and re-replaying my defender) — unless the deck contains yennefer:invocation or philipa eilhart, in which case I am 0%. But then I’m 0% against either yennefer or philipa regardless of the deck they’re in. Which suggests to me that (at least for Skellige) poison is not the problem card.

Even with other factions, I think the poison mechanism is fine — the real problem is that with NG and SY it is too prevalent. If no faction had access to no more than 5 poison applications, poison would be a good deterrent to one card wonder decks. With limited applications, there is reasonable risk of a poison card bricking with no partner, and a need to be selective in targets.

Well, I'm glad poison doesn't affect you too much. Thing is though, the fact poison only impacts specific play styles doesn't make it any better. It makes it worse. Because it means the developers will turn a blind eye to it as its win rate isn't through the roof. While it is shutting down decks that like to go taller (as if there wasn't enough punishment for that as is)

If you want to be able to shut down decks/cards that go tall then fine, but players should have to pay in provisions and tempo for it. Destroying any unit, regardless of strength, used to be limited to a small group of cards and often with specific conditions. The fact 2- four provision cards can now do this shows to me how much the gameplay has sunk to be a removal fest.

If I'm putting down strong, expensive cards to push for a round and my opponent keeps up by playing his cheapest cards, I feel cheated.

 

[quintivarium]

I am not playing a net deck — in fact, I am so tech unsavvy I can’t even find net decks (not that I want to use them, but I would like to know what “Double Ball” is when I see the deck named, beyond the obvious necessary mechanism for playing Masquerade Ball twice.)

Rather, to create my deck, I looked at my small handful of gold faction cards, selected those that I thought synergised, and build a deck around them.

I don’t even own Lippy, and would not play him if I did - I don’t know whether he is broken, but he’s definitely not my style.

Finally, my deck wins nowhere near 90%, it merely does that well against what are probably poorly designed poison decks. However, this is getting off topic.

My point is that poison itself is not a bad mechanism — I think it a far better way to prevent over-reliance on one card than unlimited card grabbing like Philippe and Yennefer, or massive card reset like Yrden. At least poison is a little bit interactive. The problem is that it is too readily available.

I do agree that any mechanism that eliminates not only several archetypes, but entire styles of play is bad — even if it can be countered. And presently, poison does destroy almost all tall strategies, and any slow engines. I agree it needs adjustment.

I had not considered that it may be better to change the mechanism than to remove poison from a dozen units, but that is probably an accurate assessment. If poison is reworked, I would like to see it markedly different than existing effects like bleeding. One suggestion I liked was for each application of poison to halve a unit’s current strength. Another possibility is for poisoned units to take double damage. Still another is for poisoned units to die after 6 rounds (unless purified) with each additional application reducing the time by one round. I’m sure there a numerous other interesting possibilities.

 

[Curtiswebs]

Full disclosure: I'm a nube. Been playing a week. (lvl 42, rank 17 mosaic).

I was getting slammed with poison decks over last couple of days.

Like you, I re-tooled my deck (MO) to add in purify cards to counter the poison.

• Queen of the Night (not bad - double duty: purify (ranged) and bleeding (melee) and 5 points & 7 prov.) Useful still if not facing poison deck.
• Crows Eye (Alchemy - 4 prov.) - Nearly useless. not bad effect with purify plus boost 3, but cluttered up my deck and it seems like it showed up in every draw. I was wasting mulligans trying to get more useful cards almost every round.
• Pellar - (4 pts. & 4 prov.) I don't have this one yet, but contemplating replacing Crows Eye with it. It gives a new "random" target for the SK decks and puts 4 pts. I haven't decided for sure yet. I may continue using Crows Eye but adjust strategy to keep Beast growing when it's not needed for poison control. Boost highest unit by 3 so Beast will add 2 at end of next round or two. (just a thought) This at least makes it reasonable to keep and play Crows Eye. (in games besides poison control)

I have had some success using strategy of playing for long first/second round (I played all cards in 1st hand today in one such game to win first round. Altered my entire gameplan, but it worked)

They kept wiping out my cards and I'd build them back up. I had to adapt my strategy in game, because I decided I needed to bleed their deck of as much of those poison cards as possible before round 3. I even used cards that disrupted my favorite end round combo to win round 1. I won round one then played all my trash cards in round 2 (saved 2 cards for last round). Even though they were way ahead in the round they had to keep playing cards, because they couldn't risk a couple big cards taking the round.

I was banking on my tall cards beating out there depleted deck in round 3 and it worked out. It was still touch and go with all of the "draw from the deck" cards they seemed to come up with, but it at least worked out in this instance.

As a nube, I'm not sure if I face the level of deck that you're contending with but the strategy seems to be working for me. For now anyway.

I'm having way more trouble drawing the cards that I want to use in round three. I'm almost afraid to discard anything in rounds one and two, because they seem to be the ones that show up in round 3. I'm experimenting now with using up thos cards in rounds one and two just to make sure they're buried before I get to 3 round draw. I'd welcome suggestions from you more experienced players with regard to Mulligans.

 

[Guest 4375874]

Full disclosure: I'm a nube. Been playing a week. (lvl 42, rank 17 mosaic).

I was getting slammed with poison decks over last couple of days.

Like you, I re-tooled my deck (MO) to add in purify cards to counter the poison.

• Queen of the Night (not bad - double duty: purify (ranged) and bleeding (melee) and 5 points & 7 prov.) Useful still if not facing poison deck.
• Crows Eye (Alchemy - 4 prov.) - Nearly useless. not bad effect with purify plus boost 3, but cluttered up my deck and it seems like it showed up in every draw. I was wasting mulligans trying to get more useful cards almost every round.
• Pellar - (4 pts. & 4 prov.) I don't have this one yet, but contemplating replacing Crows Eye with it. It gives a new "random" target for the SK decks and puts 4 pts. I haven't decided for sure yet. I may continue using Crows Eye but adjust strategy to keep Beast growing when it's not needed for poison control. Boost highest unit by 3 so Beast will add 2 at end of next round or two. (just a thought) This at least makes it reasonable to keep and play Crows Eye. (in games besides poison control)

I have had some success using strategy of playing for long first/second round (I played all cards in 1st hand today in one such game to win first round. Altered my entire gameplan, but it worked)

They kept wiping out my cards and I'd build them back up. I had to adapt my strategy in game, because I decided I needed to bleed their deck of as much of those poison cards as possible before round 3. I even used cards that disrupted my favorite end round combo to win round 1. I won round one then played all my trash cards in round 2 (saved 2 cards for last round). Even though they were way ahead in the round they had to keep playing cards, because they couldn't risk a couple big cards taking the round.

I was banking on my tall cards beating out there depleted deck in round 3 and it worked out. It was still touch and go with all of the "draw from the deck" cards they seemed to come up with, but it at least worked out in this instance.

As a nube, I'm not sure if I face the level of deck that you're contending with but the strategy seems to be working for me. For now anyway.

I'm having way more trouble drawing the cards that I want to use in round three. I'm almost afraid to discard anything in rounds one and two, because they seem to be the ones that show up in round 3. I'm experimenting now with using up thos cards in rounds one and two just to make sure they're buried before I get to 3 round draw. I'd welcome suggestions from you more experienced players with regard to Mulligans.

That's good. I find that unorthodox methods work best against poison. I had some success taking a similar approach minus purify. I focused mostly on disrupting opponents using deathwish units like Miruna, Imperial Manticore, Rotfiend, Penitent or Werecat etc which if killed is a risk to them so they have to think twice. That said it's not always successful since often they gain more points than they lose especially with double ball. I'm assuming you haven't come across it much from what you've said. In addition to that NG has cheap locks and of course Yennefers Invocation which is where my approach failed to be as effective since most seasoned ranked players combine locks and poison. Keep trying new things, that's part of what makes the game fun ...that is until you encounter the inescapable meta bots

 

[bots_killer]

I guess by playing swarm strategies instead of tall units.

 

[ShadowKayn]

swarm easily beats it

 

[Archbandit]

Well I play poison from time to time: it keeps my win ration above 0%. Basically, just throwing poison around isn't especially effective and I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as some people make out. Still a relative noob at about 3 weeks (I think). Not especially tech-savvy so I have no idea to find out when I started.

 

[Guest 4404014]

I would like to know what “Double Ball” is

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Though some choices are imo debatable like no Collar, no defender, nothing to consistently pull Assire or Matta (Roderick isn't enough imo, and Tactical is used on Ball since there's no defender) or Heaver, etc. Basically the concept is to use Ball twice courtesy of Assire van Anahid.

There's a lot of fuss about this deck because it's an example of extreme control kinda deck. It removes up to a half of whatever you put on the table. It's very frustrating to play against especially for the inexperienced. In order to stand a chance against it, many decks need to heavily adjust (and some low-tier ones need to just quit). And many ppl don't like to adjust and be forced to do what they don't wanna do, so they chronically lose to Double Ball and express their butthurtedness on the forum - very heartily. That in turn results in more people playing it for easy wins.

But as is the case with all "extreme" decks, it's not as competitively strong as other more mid-ranged decks

As for how to win it depends on the deck but here's some general guidelines:

1) two must have cards - Royal Decree (or any bronze unit pull) and Bomb Heaver
2) purify card against the defender
3) some removal for the Dames (Double Ball has almost no protection for engines, and your normal point count will be halved against this deck so his engines must go)
4) don't set up until he expended at least some of his ammo or got his Ball bombed
5) make sure you can still carry out your game plan with half your units
6) don't bother purifying poison for immediate value unless special circumstances
7) know the deck, know what he may have at any moment (that's easy, what he has at any moment is poison)
8) watch out for Yennefer: Invocation (I mean you can watch out all you want but there's nothing you can do really) and for Vincent van V. (same thing)
9) pray for red coin
10) if that don't work switch to point slams.

 

[gluckstaler]

If you don't like locks and poison how about using cards with immunity?

The Syndicate "Congregate-Gord" Deck has "Sir Skewertooth" with which I've severely stalled both Nilfgaard and Skellige in the first round.

 

[LeftHookGoodNight]

If i play MO, i use consume plus caretaker against poison. Or playing swarm + boost so i wont be having tall units. If i play ST, i mostly poison his engines in first round so (s)he cant have point advantage in first round. In the third round, i use purrifier unit for defender + bomb heaver and generally keep oak to destroy the cards renews leader ability (can't remember the name). If i play NR it is mostly swarming revenants dependant, since i dont want to produce any tall units for poison. For SK, i try to control first round so i can have last card advantage in the final round. Destroyin engine in the first round and having bomb heaver in the final round is key to victory.

 

[Guest 4404014]

Yeah, caretaker is very good. Everything in the above post is spot on. I have lost with Double Ball to every single thing described above

 

[Guest 4375874]

If i play MO, i use consume plus caretaker against poison. Or playing swarm + boost so i wont be having tall units. If i play ST, i mostly poison his engines in first round so (s)he cant have point advantage in first round. In the third round, i use purrifier unit for defender + bomb heaver and generally keep oak to destroy the cards renews leader ability (can't remember the name). If i play NR it is mostly swarming revenants dependant, since i dont want to produce any tall units for poison. For SK, i try to control first round so i can have last card advantage in the final round. Destroyin engine in the first round and having bomb heaver in the final round is key to victory.

Not sure how long you've been playing MO but caretaker is not a viable option. Very expensive and NG will have locks or can just poison and remove him quite easily or Yen's invocation. Swarm and boost just barely works until you get matched with a faction that isn't NG and bludgeoned to death by Geralt Yrdn or Siege. There's a reason most Mo you see now are using thrive and dominance not swarm. And if you didn't play swarm before you shouldn't be forced to change your play style just to be able to "maybe" survive against one faction.

 

[Archbandit]

I still fail to understand why people struggle against poison so and want it degraded or nerfed. I have taken to using it as a counter to the good old 'net deck'. I still lose far more than I win; it isn't the most effective method at all in card removal (it takes 2 to take out your one) and while it might be potentially very strong with NG's scenario card - and I think these cards should only be allowed to be played once and that would make people want to use them sensibly) on its own it can do some good surgical removal and that's about it. It can be played cleverly but it's still limited. It's always limited. My ten cards can take out 5 of yours. You have such an advantage numerically. Again, I've seen some players simply ignore my massed poison attack and just do what they're going to do and adapt. If you win by one point, it's still your win, isn't it?


And no, while I do use an NG deck at times but not in this situation, I've no idea how to 'double ball'; I would probably not do it as I consider it unfair and quite childish reflecting the 'win at all costs and this makes me grate' mentality, rather than losing a game but commending someone on a clever p lay or simply being bettered and accepting it but knowing you played a good game regardless and playing by instruction isn't fun. It's my input, not someone else's that I favour.