Interesting Data Shaping Your World

[weirdwayne15]

So, in some games a lot of various statistics are tract. How many Dragons Slain, Slimes Slimed, and Beetles Bashed. Or how many thefts stopped, old ladies helped, and cats saved from trees.

So while I like these typically arbitrary statistics. I would like more to see them have an impact. In the case of Cyberpunk 2077. If you were known for helping the weak "number of old ladies you helped cross the street" you might be respected by nearly everyone as everyone has a grandmother (couldn't be here without one).

Other statistics that I would be interested in would be chivalry. What if you played V as someone who never killed women or only killed women or vice-versa? How would your reputation turn out? Clearly in this world women can be just as dangerous as men. Chivalry would be a dangerous thing to practice, but might that gain you street cred. How would it influence your "reputation" which is, as we know, everything in this world.

Does that interest anyone else?

 

[Guest 4416959]

So, in some games a lot of various statistics are tract. How many Dragons Slain, Slimes Slimed, and Beetles Bashed. Or how many thefts stopped, old ladies helped, and cats saved from trees.

So while I like these typically arbitrary statistics. I would like more to see them have an impact. In the case of Cyberpunk 2077. If you were known for helping the weak "number of old ladies you helped cross the street" you might be respected by nearly everyone as everyone has a grandmother (couldn't be here without one).

Other statistics that I would be interested in would be chivalry. What if you played V as someone who never killed women or only killed women or vice-versa? How would your reputation turn out? Clearly in this world women can be just as dangerous as men. Chivalry would be a dangerous thing to practice, but might that gain you street cred. How would it influence your "reputation" which is, as we know, everything in this world.

Does that interest anyone else?

Sounds neat. I personally like Fall Out type games where doing good or evil acts will allow you to have certain game options. The more good karma you accumulate, the better encounters you will have and it will be easier to get services. Bad karma obviously hurts your reputation, but there's a mercenary who will join you only if you have a bad reputation. So something like that in Cyberpunk 2077 would seem groovy to me, since that would allow the game to become more playable.

 

[Tree_Fox]

Nope. I don’t want to have my character get negatively affected when I get bored and go on a murder spree until I’m killed.

plus, the whole good actions/bad actions seems like a step back from what CDPR is doing in their games, where your choices are morally ambiguous.

 

[weirdwayne15]

Nope. I don’t want to have my character get negatively affected when I get bored and go on a murder spree until I’m killed.

plus, the whole good actions/bad actions seems like a step back from what CDPR is doing in their games, where your choices are morally ambiguous.

Just because killing people in Cyberpunk 2077 isn't necessarily considered "wrong" your actions do have consequences. If you go on a murder spree you've likely killed a lot of people all of whom have connections at the very least you just upset their community as a whole making them fear for the lives they're trying to live.

Moral or not people will give a damn about how you treat others. So I wouldn't call that a step back at all.

 

[Tree_Fox]

Just because killing people in Cyberpunk 2077 isn't necessarily considered "wrong" your actions do have consequences. If you go on a murder spree you've likely killed a lot of people all of whom have connections at the very least you just upset their community as a whole making them fear for the lives they're trying to live.

Moral or not people will give a damn about how you treat others. So I wouldn't call that a step back at all.

You’re missing my point. Stats track through deaths. The game resets to the last checkpoint before I died. Unless I load a manual save, those stats are still going to be affecting my game.

so even though I died, and the game went back in time before my rampage, the kill count would still remain in effect. And if npc’s are effected by my stats, then I’ve effectively locked myself into a murderer play through.

get it?

 

[Codecypher]

Yeah well there is no karma system where it accounts if you are good or evil which is too much black and white.
So its yes more of grey or simply bad and bad choice.
Sometimes you dont have the option to be good or to avoid violence but you can still influence the outcome
It's definitely on more of the side who you work with. You cant blindly trust nor can you please everyone

Thinking about that Maelstorm situation with Royce and pulling the gun on him that scene is intense and like the one with Judy is so chill so it will be really in the moment. Fuck I'm too hyped and i have zero expectations besides what has been confirmed.

I kind of understand what you are asking for but I am really undecided. I like seeing statistics like that but I agree with Tree_Fox wouldn't want that to truly affect the story unless the killing spree implies important story characters and whatnot.

There aren't ' wrong ' choices as in game over choice etc however choices do have consequences as youd imagine
Romance works on the same principle on how well you work with someone presuming the orientation matches for there to be a chance for that kinda like in real life.

 

[michaelstitcher]

I don't think that cp2077 is linear enough to do that. Yeah there are gang factions, but even within those "systems" there are factions. Royce vs. Brick in the maelstrom, evilyn vs. Dexter in the Gig job, Judy unsure about the mox's goals... This is a game unlike we have seen, it is a game of individuals, with individual wants, shifting aliances, insecurities, and power plays. Allies change, and you are a mercenary which none of the gangs or people will truly trust other than the friendships you can build one on one; and that is difficult in the world of NC. This isn't like Fable where you give a person a gift and they are in a relationship with you, or like Inquisition where you talk to somebody about a book and they fall in love with you, this is difficult, and your choices and even words have individual ramifications. So as any sociologist would say, the data you are suggesting is neither possible as a data set nor is it statistically significant enough to be pegged to a system of credit. Instead, choose the roleplaying characteristics of your character, and enjoy the game, but don't expect it to relate down to quantifiable data of good vs evil; night city is a shades of grey to black type of place, with brief hints of sunlight. It's artistic like that, nebulous, not robotic and statistical.

 

[weirdwayne15]

I don't think that cp2077 is linear enough to do that.

This isn't about if the game is Linear. The Cyberpunk work is all about reputation. Lets dive into Blackhand. He had a reputation for avoiding killing as much as possible. In particular he worked to avoid any collateral damage and civilian casualties. That is a part of his story and reputation. V is building his own story and his own reputation. To me this fits in perfectly with that.

 

[Sild]

This isn't about if the game is Linear. The Cyberpunk work is all about reputation. Lets dive into Blackhand. He had a reputation for avoiding killing as much as possible. In particular he worked to avoid any collateral damage and civilian casualties. That is a part of his story and reputation. V is building his own story and his own reputation. To me this fits in perfectly with that.

Ah. In so far as our reputation as a mercenary, then sure I could see it, even prefer it, if it were possible. How you deal with targets, what you do to get to them - sneak, kill, negotiate.. Sure. That said, I wouldn't want it in a way that future events are heavily influenced by it. Like in Dishonored or Vampyr(I get to play a vampire but the game makes me feel like a douche if I lean into it too much. Kinda defeats the purpose, dosen't it?) . Maybe I feel like letting loose for a while, maybe do some stupid stuff messing around with the gameplay. So, yea, some reactivity based on playstyle but not have it be determinant to the narrative.

 

[michaelstitcher]

This isn't about if the game is Linear. The Cyberpunk work is all about reputation. Lets dive into Blackhand. He had a reputation for avoiding killing as much as possible. In particular he worked to avoid any collateral damage and civilian casualties. That is a part of his story and reputation. V is building his own story and his own reputation. To me this fits in perfectly with that.

You miss the point, your original post and question was if there was a statistical measurement for basically a karma system. The reason cp2077 went with the streetcred is the rule of cool, not the rule of good. You can be evil as hell and still be cool, but in night city one person's badguy is another good guy. The medics, Trauma team, guns down anybody in their way to save their client who are often high paid killers (read the comics). And black hand? He wasn't a hero. He was good, but he freaking helped nuke the city and caused hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. He was a paid merc, no better, no worse. Even if he helped the people on the low levels, he still took the corpo pay and killed who it took to get the job done. There is no good in night city, just your version of good however you try to make it.

 

[Codecypher]

You miss the point, your original post and question was if there was a statistical measurement for basically a karma system. The reason cp2077 went with the streetcred is the rule of cool, not the rule of good. You can be evil as hell and still be cool, but in night city one person's badguy is another good guy. The medics, Trauma team, guns down anybody in their way to save their client who are often high paid killers (read the comics). And black hand? He wasn't a hero. He was good, but he freaking helped nuke the city and caused hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. He was a paid merc, no better, no worse. Even if he helped the people on the low levels, he still took the corpo pay and killed who it took to get the job done. There is no good in night city, just your version of good however you try to make it.

God damn well said sir.

 

[fridgeband]

So, in some games a lot of various statistics are tract. How many Dragons Slain, Slimes Slimed, and Beetles Bashed. Or how many thefts stopped, old ladies helped, and cats saved from trees.

So while I like these typically arbitrary statistics. I would like more to see them have an impact. In the case of Cyberpunk 2077. If you were known for helping the weak "number of old ladies you helped cross the street" you might be respected by nearly everyone as everyone has a grandmother (couldn't be here without one).

Other statistics that I would be interested in would be chivalry. What if you played V as someone who never killed women or only killed women or vice-versa? How would your reputation turn out? Clearly in this world women can be just as dangerous as men. Chivalry would be a dangerous thing to practice, but might that gain you street cred. How would it influence your "reputation" which is, as we know, everything in this world.

Does that interest anyone else?

I'm kind of sick of being judged and labeled and blamed for all kinds of nonsensical B*!@#$% all the time in my life, (No, not talking about politics in any way shape or form) and I feel like if that kind of petty wild rabid B@#$S!@#$ followed me into a video game, a video game that I am using to satisfy my need for enjoyment and escapism and immersion into a different kind of experience, this kind of thing would likely shatter my immersion and ruin my entire experience, for the sole reason that the idea, concept, and its style of implementation would be in active contradiction of some of my main reasons for playing video games. Simply put, it's going to get in my way of having fun. I even say this from the perspective of someone who actually intends to attempt to play as a hero or good character. I know that inevitably, should this be put into effect, I will find myself to be unfairly judged and labeled and have my fun severely ruined at least at many different points in the game. Most video games I ever played that had anything like this or anything resembling an attempted moral system have never really convinced me to respect said moral system in question. I feel like every game that tries to do that comes across as a joke, and leaves me feeling so jaded and demoralized in utter disgust and shock at how disconnected the game feels from any common sense. I'm always asking myself "Why am I being treated this way, I clearly did the right thing, and yet I am punished" These games never succeeded in changing my opinions or morals, but rather only succeeded in making me change which game I decide to play.

 

[weirdwayne15]

I'm kind of sick of being judged and labeled and blamed for all kinds of...

Yeah. If you don't want your judgment and actions to affect your gameplay. RPGs are not for you. A game that is ALLL about your reputation and the choices you make is not for you. Play Call of Duty or something that couldn't care less.

 

[KeldornOfLatria]

I think stuff like that is great. That is one of the great things to come out of Death Stranding. It's not an overall great game, but that invisible-hand-style impact was fascinating to watch, even the little paths on the grass. I'm sure more and more games will have that.
But not CP2077 – that is not what CDPR is going for.

 

[gregski]

Several posts got deleted. Please:

1. Keep real life political references out of the forums.
2. Keep hostile attitude towards other forum users out of the forums

Otherwise, moderators will be forced to keep you out of the forums.

Thanks.

 

[fridgeband]

Several posts got deleted. Please:

1. Keep real life political references out of the forums.
2. Keep hostile attitude towards other forum users out of the forums

Otherwise, moderators will be forced to keep you out of the forums.

Thanks.

I'm not offering an opinion or suggestion or discussing moderator stuff in any way, I just want to say that I would have liked to have seen those posts, (but I'm fine that I didn't, so I'm not asking for that) only for the reason that because then I would have a better idea of what not to do in my next post (right below this one in the same post). I assume that since (it appears) that none of my posts were deleted (if I'm not mistaken) that I'm doing okay, so with all due respect I will reply to weirdwayne15 (again, of course without any mentions of real life political stuff), just being cautious because I do not want to accidentally seem like I'm doing what was moderator'd for people to avoid doing by gregski. Also hi Gregski! Long time no see on the forums!

Yeah. If you don't want your judgment and actions to affect your gameplay. RPGs are not for you. A game that is ALLL about your reputation and the choices you make is not for you. Play Call of Duty or something that couldn't care less.

I'm looking forward to enjoying the world of Cyberpunk2077 and doing things and then seeing the consequences to my actions in Cyberpunk2077. If I couldn't affect the world, and the world couldn't affect my character back, it wouldn't be a game, it would be a movie (since I could only watch but not intervene). But I'm not worried about that, I look forward to the experience and having the game world being a dynamic back and forth experience, a two way street I suppose.

however, I do not consider that to be the same exact thing as a highly arbitrary and subjective set of stats tracking me and making moral judgments upon me (the player) or V (the character) and having (also) arbitrary consequences (good or bad) (even if they are rewards) that make absolutely no sense to me and just fall upon me out of nowhere, considering that I myself don't even subscribe to or agree with what happened, or even understand why it happened.

In this situation the game would technically be in the process of making the presumption of my magically automatic agreement with a very large variety of many many different things that I may actually have a highly different opinion or idea of, thus making certain kind of stats tracking me kind of useless, or perhaps even detrimental to my experience. Essentially, the game would turn into an opinion simulator, and if I agreed with the game, I would win, if I disagreed, I would lose. I really am not interested in that, so I don't really actually want that in the game, or really any game that I play.

1. Keep real life political references out of the forums.

This has very good meaning to me, because I am also interested in playing a game without real life political references, which games in the past have inevitably become as a result of having a pre-built in set of opinions and then judging the player by what they do or don't do in that style of judging, for example.

I will say that I am more than happy to experience fake, video game world politics. There's already a bunch of politicians shown running for Nigh City Mayor or something like that, and that's cool and everything. I can't wait to see what that's all about, I'm actually looking forward to it because it will be refreshing and different ( and fake, and in a video game ).

 

[weirdwayne15]

however, I do not consider that to be the same exact thing as a highly arbitrary and subjective set of stats tracking me and making moral judgments upon me (the player) or V (the character) and having (also) arbitrary consequences (good or bad) (even if they are rewards) that make absolutely no sense to me and just fall upon me out of nowhere, considering that I myself don't even subscribe to or agree with what happened, or even understand why it happened.

Yeah. Our action in the game are not arbitrary. The more you do something the more solidified your "Reputation" becomes. Especially if there is great disparity between your actions. Stats are a way of tracking what you do, not "making" you do anything. You are being judge not because of your "stats" you are being judged because of your "actions" It's not "out of no where" it is culmination of the choices you've made. If you do something that goes unseen. Of course I would not advocate for that to be reflected on your reputation. However, if what you do is witnessed, like a majority of your decisions will be, either directly or your are connected to something then that would influence your reputation.

Also like in real life if you play your cards wrong you might get a reputation because people get the wrong idea about you. It happens all the time in life.

 

[fridgeband]

Yeah. Our action in the game are not arbitrary. The more you do something the more solidified your "Reputation" becomes. Especially if there is great disparity between your actions. Stats are a way of tracking what you do, not "making" you do anything. You are being judge not because of your "stats" you are being judged because of your "actions" It's not "out of no where" it is culmination of the choices you've made. If you do something that goes unseen. Of course I would not advocate for that to be reflected on your reputation. However, if what you do is witnessed, like a majority of your decisions will be, either directly or your are connected to something then that would influence your reputation.

Also like in real life if you play your cards wrong you might get a reputation because people get the wrong idea about you. It happens all the time in life.

And I'm glad Cyberpunk2077 choices and actions are not arbitrary, but I'm not talking about Cyberpunk2077's style of doing things, I'm talking about the idea presented in the thread topic.

Also, every game I have ever played that tried to be like real life, to the exaggerated point of perfection, always ended up being worse in every way.

I feel like you're just taking the two things I just distinctly made clear were separate and tried to combine them together again.
When there is a system of tracking in place, this can often result in people subconsciously feeling forced to behave a different way simply because of the fact that someone or something is observing them. Panopticon Effect.

Panopticon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The panopticon is a type of institutional building and a system of control designed by the English philosopher and social theorist Jeremy Bentham in the 18th century. The concept of the design is to allow all prisoners of an institution to be observed by a single security guard, without the inmates being able to tell whether they are being watched.
Although it is physically impossible for the single guard to observe all the inmates' cells at once, the fact that the inmates cannot know when they are being watched means that they are motivated to act as though they are being watched at all times. Thus, the inmates are effectively compelled to regulate their own behaviour."

This is a problem because if the player can't feel like they're able to just act naturally, then they will not be able to relate to their own main character, and wont get very immersed in the first place. Kind of like that feeling that kids feel when they're inside a school, and the teachers are always looking over their shoulder ready to yell at them (even if they didn't do anything lol)

It's one thing whatever CDPR said they were going to do, and another thing for the game to track every single little truly random action the character takes and then use that to paint a very biased picture of them in the form of a judgement resulting in some kind of punishment or reward, It always goes back full circle and turns into an opinion simulator, which inevitably crosses the boundary of political related issues of some kind (which I do not want to talk about, or have included in any of the games I play ever for any reason) and then it just turns into the player either agreeing with the game and going along with it and winning, or deciding they disagree or want to simply have the freedom to play the way they decide, and then the game will punish the player or refuse to reward them.

There is a very serious big possibility that these stats in your idea will possibly shatter the immersion by not so subtly nudging the player in certain directions over and over again until they've crossed lines that they never signed up for. When the player realizes how far in any direction they've been pushed, they may instantly just lose interest from feeling betrayed or forced to do something they didn't want to do.

I'll just gladly take CDPR's way of doing it, whatever it may be. I honestly really do not like the idea presented in the thread. It sounds interesting, cool even I will admit, but the long term effects it would have on gameplay after implementation would utterly demolish the experience for me.

I want to be able to experience my character, the world, the story. Not these other things that will always be distracting me.

 

[weirdwayne15]

And I'm glad Cyberpunk2077 choices and actions are not arbitrary, but I'm not talking about Cyberpunk2077's style of doing things, I'm talking about the idea presented in the thread topic.
...
I feel like you're just taking the two things I just distinctly made clear were separate and tried to combine them together again.
When there is a system of tracking in place, this can often result in people subconsciously feeling forced to behave a different way simply because of the fact that someone or something is observing them. Panopticon Effect.

To the first "And I'm glad Cyberpunk2077 choices and actions are not arbitrary, but I'm not talking about Cyberpunk2077's style of doing things"

You do not know exactly CP2077 style is of doing things. Nor do I. I know what their goal is because they've stated as much and that's for our actions to have consequences. For our "V" to have a reputation that is built by the choices we make. This is a goal that MANY RPGs have reached for and few, if any, have done well. You keep using the word "arbitrary" and I don't believe it means what you think it means. You are saying two contradictory things "I want my choices to matter, but I don't want my choices to matter"

"I feel like you're just taking the two things I just distinctly made clear were separate and tried to combine them together again."

Yes I have made it clear that the two things you are trying to make separate "Consequences" and "consequences" or if you would prefer "reputation" and "reputation" that you are not at all talking about two separate things. If you are intending to make a clear and distinct argument you have failed to do so. That is not an insult. If you were making your point clear I would not be arguing the same thing with you a second time. We would have to make different arguments clarifying our position further until we could discern what it is we are disagreeing on at the core. You believe you are making a valid point, but to summarize. All I am reading from you is as I said You are saying two contradictory things "I want my choices to matter, but I don't want my choices to matter"

I apologize for not addressing the "Panopticon Effect " point you made in your last post. So I'm editing it in now.
You will act differently when you are watched. I have already made a distinction in a prior post. If you commit a crime that no one can connect you with there is no reason it should influence your reputation. However if you were involved in a heist and other people in the world can connect you to it that should influence your reputation. If you commit a massacre and leave no one to tell the tale you should be able to get away with it. If there was a camera that puts you at the scene of a crime it should influence your reputation. There is nothing arbitrary about it. You are being watched. The world does not revolve around your character instead your character is a part of this world and people ought to react accordingly.

 

[fridgeband]

To the first "And I'm glad Cyberpunk2077 choices and actions are not arbitrary, but I'm not talking about Cyberpunk2077's style of doing things"

You do not know exactly CP2077 style is of doing things. Nor do I. I know what their goal is because they've stated as much and that's for our actions to have consequences. For our "V" to have a reputation that is built by the choices we make. This is a goal that MANY RPGs have reached for and few, if any, have done well. You keep using the word "arbitrary" and I don't believe it means what you think it means. You are saying two contradictory things "I want my choices to matter, but I don't want my choices to matter"

"I feel like you're just taking the two things I just distinctly made clear were separate and tried to combine them together again."

Yes I have made it clear that the two things you are trying to make separate "Consequences" and "consequences" or if you would prefer "reputation" and "reputation" that you are not at all talking about two separate things. If you are intending to make a clear and distinct argument you have failed to do so. That is not an insult. If you were making your point clear I would not be arguing the same thing with you a second time. We would have to make different arguments clarifying our position further until we could discern what it is we are disagreeing on at the core. You believe you are making a valid point, but to summarize. All I am reading from you is as I said You are saying two contradictory things "I want my choices to matter, but I don't want my choices to matter"

To put it simply, I like what I heard CDPR say about how Cyberpunk2077 would be, and honestly and sincerely, I simply do not like anything that you said in your idea in any way, because I feel like it would ruin what CDPR wanted it to be like. Frankly, I think it would ruin most games, but that's just my opinion. I think what I said was well said and well articulated, and I feel no further clarification is needed. I'll gladly let everyone else have their own turn to interpret my words.