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Lessons learnt from Red Dead Redemption 2 applied to CP77

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#1
Like most of you I have played and finished RDR2 and although it's an amazing game it has some narrative issues that plague most open world games and I would like to address them here. ***This thread will not contain any major spoilers but the mildest of spoilers ahead.***

My biggest issue with the game has to be the disparity between what is going on in the main plot line and which sidemissions are available to you. For instance during the game you are being hunted by the law they know where your camp is, but there is also a new sidemission to go fishing. Now if you are like me and you roleplay all your games, you really need to get the hell out of there and you don't have time to go fishing. Several of these incidents were present during the game and it just didn't feel well planned out. What would have been more sensible is after you finished of a big bank robbery you had to retreat to the countryside and lay low. This would have been a great opportunity to have a sidemission where you go fishing. Now I assume CP77 will have heists like takedown a data server, steal info a la Neuromancer or just rob money and then retreat to the outskirts and lay low. It would be a good idea to have sidemissions that don't go against the main plot line, like go to the city and meet x and do y its like no u should lay low in the outskirts people are looking for u.

Missing out on sidequests. Yes you can miss out on sidequests that actually have a bearing on the main storyline but you wouldn't know that cause the game doesn't tell you, until its too late. and that sidemission is gone forever. Very frustrating as some sidequests are very important to the main story line but the game doesn't tell you which.

Game length. This had to be the longest Rockstar game ever. took me about 50hours easy to complete the game and i didn't even do half of the sidemissions. This is the first case where the game being too long actually hurt it. By the end of it I wanted to throw up I was so fed up with where the story went I won't spoil it but there are things that happen that could have easily been part of the sidemissions cause they have no bearing on the main story line but they part of the main story and u can't procede unless u finish them.

My advice for CP2077 is keep the story focused. Be sensible with the timing of sidemissions. And don't be too long. 25-30 hours is fine for the main quest and some sidemissions. Let the player know if a sidemission is going to be eliminated if you don't do it immediately. Also separate the sidemissions that are important and essential to the storyline versus the ones that are not that important or at all. Few tips-
 
#2
It is kind of fun how two people can agree on the issues but then have the exact opposite reaction as far as the outcome.

I actually hope that they just pay more attention to the side missions and their possible consequences, making them feel as significant as the main quest line. My hope is that just feels like "here are the 3 things I can do right now" instead of "I can do this 1 main or these 2 side missions". I feel like the weariness comes from the realization that I just want to see what the main story is, but I've got to waste my time on these busy-work side missions. If they weren't denoted as being side quests & didn't feel like busy work it would probably just seem like more stuff for V, so you could keep the game engaging without trying to give it a shorter time to completion.
 

Snowflakez

User
#4
Focus on engrossing gameplay, stories, and features - less on simulations. Shrinking horse testicles and foal birthing mini-games are novel ideas, but don't contribute much, if at all, to gameplay or story.
That's just, like, your opinion, man.

It's funny to bring up shrinking horse testicles, but that's maybe 1% of what RDR2 offers.

I loved all the simulation aspects in that game. I know others here did too.

Thing is, RDR2 wasn't an RPG. I don't want the same stuff (not all of it, anyway) to transfer over for that reason.

But some elements, certainly, would be welcome additions.
 

Tree_Fox

User
#5
RDR2 was a great cinematic experience. It was, however, a piss-poor game. The controls were clunky and the 'fun factor' quickly diminished after the story was over. Managing your characters physique, like hair, weight, cleanliness, etc. also gets old quickly. Chores aren't fun. I hope CDPR doesn't follow R*'s footsteps and try to emulate RDR2 in Cyberpunk.
 
#6
I've got some sticking points with RDR2, it isn't perfect by any means, but even so it is clearly well crafted with a lot of care, intention, and effort. I don't think everyone should like or enjoy it, but I can't imagine a world where I'd call it bad.

There were brief points where it felt that more effort was put into some of these fine details than the world as a whole and that level of effort almost worked against the game, but for the most part they helped ground me into the world and made the world seem more dynamic and tangible.

As far as managing the character goes, my only real complaint is in line with my take on side quests being that having this content doesn't add much unless it is more significant. As it stands now Arthur is only gaining or losing a little weight with minor bumps to his stats as a consequence, same goes for hygiene, so it is briefly fun but ultimately kind of superficial. Now if I could have a gaunt cancer patient Arthur who puts some people off and crumples in a heap from a drunkard's first punch or absolute unit Arthur who is an immovable object but risks a stroke every time he gets on/off his horse, it would feel more substantial and have more reason to exist.

To tie these ideas to the original thread, I'd say the main thing CP2077 could learn from RDR2 is make things have consequence. If you are going to add a feature make it substantial, pretty much apply Checkov's gun to game design.
 

BaalNergal

User
#7
Like most of you I have played and finished RDR2 and although it's an amazing game it has some narrative issues that plague most open world games and I would like to address them here.
*looks at my lack of a PS4*
*looks at the lack of an RDR2 PC release*
*grabs Mephistopheles' Grimoire of Exciting Curses*
*flips to the section on exploding boils*
*jots down notes on one that explodes lactose inside the intestines*
*flips to the section on food allergies and intolerances*
*starts casting a lactose intolerance curse on animalfather*
 

Garrison72

User
#9
If making the campaign slightly shorter helps them tell a better story, then I say go for it. 35 to 40 hrs would be fine for me. I'm of the opinion their shorter games, ie; TW2 and TW3 expansions are their best work. As for what else to garner from Red Dead - the randomly generated events and activities that make the world feel alive. And with side content, I'd only say have a bit more variety than TW3 had.
 

Snowflakez

User
#10
RDR2 was a great cinematic experience. It was, however, a piss-poor game. The controls were clunky and the 'fun factor' quickly diminished after the story was over. Managing your characters physique, like hair, weight, cleanliness, etc. also gets old quickly. Chores aren't fun. I hope CDPR doesn't follow R*'s footsteps and try to emulate RDR2 in Cyberpunk.
I found the chores fun.

Boom.
 
#13
another issue I had with RDR2 was how some missions felt nonsensical and didn't have any bearing on the story. I want every mission in cp77 to be meaningful and advance the story.
 

helios969

User
#14
I want the side content to be side content and not tied to progression of the main story. Nothing I hate more than being forced to engage in secondary and tertiary stuff in order to have the requisite level or equipment to continue. Now how well side content is crafted (interesting and/or fun) will determine how much I engage in. I usually like to focus on the main story with a little side stuff mixed in on my initial playthrough...then really dig into the other stuff on subsequent playthroughs.
 
#15
My advice for CP2077 is keep the story focused. Be sensible with the timing of sidemissions. And don't be too long. 25-30 hours is fine for the main quest and some sidemissions.
I strongly disagree.
Yes 25-30 hours can be enough to tell an interesting storyline, but as far as roleplay goes it's way to short to have the possibility to turn V into "your V", so if making V yours is one of the point of the game then it being too short would be a big failure.
 

helios969

User
#16
I strongly disagree.
Yes 25-30 hours can be enough to tell an interesting storyline, but as far as roleplay goes it's way to short to have the possibility to turn V into "your V", so if making V yours is one of the point of the game then it being too short would be a big failure.
Depends if that 25-30 hours in main story specific or includes secondary stuff, but in my experience with games that have well crafted dialogue options it rarely takes me more than a few hours...though I usually have a good idea of the psychology of the character I'm RPing before I even start.
 
#17
Depends if that 25-30 hours in main story specific or includes secondary stuff, but in my experience with games that have well crafted dialogue options it rarely takes me more than a few hours...though I usually have a good idea of the psychology of the character I'm RPing before I even start.
You may know what you wants to do with your character, that doesn't means you'll have access to that from start, and if that takes too short it may hinder any satisfaction from it.

To speak about C2077 we know that V is a mercenary and that it is set in stone, but we also know that V have other interest depending on his childhood hero. What that means is that I'll propably spend more of my game time trying to pursue my childhood dream career than actually taking mercenary jobs which are only there for daily expenses.
 
#19
Yeah, no. I don't know about Red Dead 2, and don't really care since it's not on PC, but I'm kinda allergic to the idea of looking at a game (very recent mainstream blockbuster to boot) from a completely other genre and/or setting and setting out to fix here what it tried to do there with its own faculties and design decisions.

Kinda like if there was a suggestion that Forza had great driving, but {deficiency X], [weakness Y], [clumsiness Z], here's how to fix those things here with this RPG. (There's a rhyme there....)

Just an opinion.
 

Rawls

Moderator
#20
I loved all the simulation aspects in that game. I know others here did too.
Raises hand. I liked my cowboy simulator.

Also in regards to the OP, I actually thought the quest pacing was pretty good. The fishing trip quest being referred to occurred immediately after escaping from the law in a moment of peace IIRC. In open world games there are always a few quests that you want to do as the player, that one probably wouldn't do as the character. Does that create a sort of cognitive dissonance? Yes. But several of my favorite RPGs suffer from the same thing.

I do think a lesson to be learned here, is creating slow paced points every so often in the story where the next step in the main quest doesn't feel urgent. This allows for some dissonance free side-questing. Brothers in Arms was a moment in TW3 that kinda felt like that (despite Avallach's encouragement to hurry).