If it meant V was no longer terminal, then it could have been interesting, especially if there were moments where Johnny's mannerisms poked through, like in how he talks or something. But it would probably make things really awkward for a V who's with Kerry. lol
Not sure that Johnny would agreed with that
Not really
What Hellman suggest it's what it happen. At some point V will start doing things that were once unthinkable, at least to her old self. But at the end, the engram will "win" and only Johnny will remain, no matter what.
My thoughts exactly. During my very first playthrough after completing Delamain quest by merging all of his personalities, I saw this situation as some sort of foreshadowing. I thought there would be at least an option of something similar for V and Johnny. And I was so disappointed that this was not the case. Feels like a missed opportunity to me. It'd be so interesting to see the result of such a transformation and how this would affect V and Johnny's friends and loved ones.
It could also be the way to please most players, as some want V to remain the protagonist in the sequel, some want it to be Johnny, some want a new character. The Johnny/V hybrid is like all of this combined - V, Johnny and a new character.
Why should he be against it? Johnny himself tells V that they are literally already one person in the Devil ending.
(shared links to two versions of this conversation, because both of them, in my opinion, are very informative and interesting)
In other endings V can say this: “I’m about to shred a comrade and a chunk of my own soul in one fucking go.”
So when they reach Mikoshi, none of them really think of themselves as truly separate individual beings. I don't see any of them would be against the full and complete merge of their personalities at this point, if there was such an option.
It could also be the way to please most players, as some want V to remain the protagonist in the sequel, some want it to be Johnny, some want a new character. The Johnny/V hybrid is like all of this combined - V, Johnny and a new character.
Post automatically merged:
Not sure that Johnny would agreed with that
Why should he be against it? Johnny himself tells V that they are literally already one person in the Devil ending.
In other endings V can say this: “I’m about to shred a comrade and a chunk of my own soul in one fucking go.”
So when they reach Mikoshi, none of them really think of themselves as truly separate individual beings. I don't see any of them would be against the full and complete merge of their personalities at this point, if there was such an option.
Last edited:
The difference in my opinion, it's personnalities with which Delamain is "merged", come originaly, well... from Delamain (so they were already an unique entity at first and then were separated). It's different with Johnny and V.
What exactly being "merged" mean ?
- Being V with some Johnny memories & thoughts (so Johnny is gone).
- Being Johnny with V's memories & thoughts (so V is gone).
- Being both like it was with the Relic (not a fantastic mix).
- Being a "brand new" personnality (so V & Johnny are gone).
- Another way that I didn't think about ?
They are one person in sense Johnny is already a part of V... Like V is a part of Johnny now. (V learned to never stop fighting and Johnny learned to let it go). Just my opinion, but I don't see Johnny nor V spend the rest of their life in the head of someone else.
Edit :
And in the Devil ending, they're not really "one person", because if it was the case, V would never called Hanako, no chance (so they still different and separate personnalities, but influenced at some point by each other).
Last edited:
I've talked about this a lot since release, but yes it does seem like a missed opportunity (and a fairly used trope in Cyberpunk genre fiction like Ghost in the Shell and Neuromancer and games like the original Deus Ex for example).
In Act 2 there's numerous dialogue to suggest V is evolving or becoming something new (talk with the doll at Clouds, Johnny's line if you choose to merge the Delamains, etc).
It could've been an interesting game mechanic if the way V dealt with Johnny throughout the game like conversation options or even using the blockers a great deal contributes to V's final state (A: Johnny takes over, B: V is free of Johnny but is "terminal" or C: a merge of consciousness with V as the dominant personality but retaining pieces of Johnny's memories and traits...)
Ah, well.
In Act 2 there's numerous dialogue to suggest V is evolving or becoming something new (talk with the doll at Clouds, Johnny's line if you choose to merge the Delamains, etc).
It could've been an interesting game mechanic if the way V dealt with Johnny throughout the game like conversation options or even using the blockers a great deal contributes to V's final state (A: Johnny takes over, B: V is free of Johnny but is "terminal" or C: a merge of consciousness with V as the dominant personality but retaining pieces of Johnny's memories and traits...)
Ah, well.
The game does clearly establish that Johnny's engram will consume V. It is not a merger; V will cease to exist.
In terms of story tension I think there are good reasons for that since the themes of loss etc can't really work if the player can just choose everyone lived happily ever after. Story wise, that would be truly yuck. It betrays everything the game's narrative is trying to say.
And besides the game does give you an option that allows both characters to reach their conclusion with agency. Just it's not Disney. Because the story is not supposed to be Disney.
In terms of story tension I think there are good reasons for that since the themes of loss etc can't really work if the player can just choose everyone lived happily ever after. Story wise, that would be truly yuck. It betrays everything the game's narrative is trying to say.
And besides the game does give you an option that allows both characters to reach their conclusion with agency. Just it's not Disney. Because the story is not supposed to be Disney.
This "kinda" happens in the Arasaka (the Devil) epilogue because V takes too long to get to MIkoshi, so the Relic claims them in the elevator and progresses too far, causing that distinct line between V and Johnny brain engrams to vanish. This is why Johnny is completely aware that they merged and why V can no longer tell which memories are theirs or Johnny's.
The Relic is V's entire other half of identity at that point, so once Prof Kusama takes out the chip it leaves V's mind shattered with half of their memories permanently lost.
This is why they do not recognize Jackie during the nightmare and why Jackie is seen trying to insert the relic back into V. He is trying to give them the other half of their soul back.
And naturally Johnny remains a part of V subconsciously, which is why he is still trying to save V through the nightmares from Arasaka. And if V decides to go back to Earth, they'll get to show the doctors a middle finger while they sing Never Fade Away. That's because it's actually Johnny's personality being a part of V.
The Relic is V's entire other half of identity at that point, so once Prof Kusama takes out the chip it leaves V's mind shattered with half of their memories permanently lost.
This is why they do not recognize Jackie during the nightmare and why Jackie is seen trying to insert the relic back into V. He is trying to give them the other half of their soul back.
And naturally Johnny remains a part of V subconsciously, which is why he is still trying to save V through the nightmares from Arasaka. And if V decides to go back to Earth, they'll get to show the doctors a middle finger while they sing Never Fade Away. That's because it's actually Johnny's personality being a part of V.
This.
It's made very clear the moment you wake up in Vic's clinic that the chip will erase V. Either the chip goes or V goes and Vic can't do it. The "lack" of merger should not have been a surprise to anyone. From the moment it all begins to the end, they maintained that the chip will erase V. Suddenly adding a merging option, whatever that would result in, would have been a very cheap way to flip flop only to please people.
What do you think about the boxer who used to be twins who decided to merge into one person then? They were originally two different people, just like V and Johnny.
I see the whole situation with V as an artificially created dissociative identity disorder.
So, "being merged" means to integrate all memories, skills, knowledge, personality traits, habits, life experiences, traumas, responsibilities into one personality. Just like what a therapist is trying to achieve in real life when treating a patient suffering from DID. So it absolutely doesn't mean that V and Johnny are both gone or that they're stuck in someone else's head.
And because of how different V and Johnny originally were, the result could be really intriguing. For example, Johnny is not a fan of Judy or River, but V could potentially fall in love with them. Kerry is Johnny's best friend, but V can start a relationship with him. Johnny loves Rogue, but to V, she is the Queen of fixers, his/her boss, he/she has no personal attachment to her. And so on. How would the Johnny/V hybrid feel about all these people? How would his general behavior change? What about ideals, principles, values? It could be a way to create a great and dramatic story.
Johnny's himself directly and clearly saying that they’re one person in this very ending.
There is also V and Helmann convo about the chip:
- What exactly is going on in my head?
- You tell me. What’s it like to have two personalities? Because it’s not like you’re hearing voices. You’re both yourself and Silverhand, simultaneously.
- I can see him and talk to him.
- You’re not “talking”, but yes, I understand what you mean.
I thought about them and I'm sure they would "come" into the discussion
But again, not the same, theu have two separate & distinct bodies, two separate and distinct minds and consciousnesses too. They simply synched their minds. But they would become them again, if you shut down the synching tech.
And as you can see in the game, it doesn't work very well, because they still able to think and to speak independantly (one of them say to the other to stop speaking alone^^).
Yeah, but Johnny is not a personnality that V "created". He's the engram on the chip which erase V's mind. So there is no merge possible according to the dialogue. The more Johnny takes "the place" (is installed by the Relic), the more V's mind (memories/consciousness/whatever) disappears. "having" both personnalities is just a "step" until the Relic finish its job.
(Oh yes, I know how it will end. I saw the relic devouring your brain... The relic is programmed to instal the construct at all cost and your helpless little meatbrain can't do anything against.)
Last edited:
Still doesn't mean that the engram can't be modified and the relic adjusted so that the new engram overwrites V. The merged personality would (following what happened in Ghost in the Shell) basically be a "child" of V and Johnny, having attributes of both, yet not really be either, so while both would essentially die (is there another Johnny still in Mikoshi?), they'd still generally follow along with what life V had established yet would sidestep the impending doom. Needless to say, that'd take a pretty powerful AI (like Alt) that would want to help them.
let's see after PL dropped - not speaking about a merging ending but about rumored impact on current endings or even a completely new ending path. time will tell how cheap theses will feel...
And V found a way out, plus bought Arasaka to ruins. At least in one storyline. That is what the toughest of the mighty are made of.
A surprisingly deterministic conclusion for a man of science
A quote from a woman who don't know or don't care about the Relic nor V... A quote about Hellman, who "invented" and "tested" the Relic himself and been involved in the whole process of the Relic creation/developpement from the very beginning.A surprisingly deterministic conclusion for a man of science
In theory, if a man of science come to a deterministic conclusion based on his experience and observations, good chance he's right. And probably not the "woman" who say what you want to hear to get your help
To resume :
- On one side, a scientific who created the technology, follow the whole developpement of it and also examined V himself. A guy who have no real reason/interest to lie (even less reason to lie while a gun is pointed on him^^).
- On the other side, a woman who know nothing about this technology, know nothing about V's state and more importantly, desesperatly need V's help to retrieve Arasaka's control from Yorinobu's hands.
Last edited:
Actually Hellman dont know a shit about the Relic in Vs head, he himself said its a experimental prototype which was in trial phase when he left Arasaka. So all your claims hes the man who knows it best is just your assumption and not fact. So in the end Hellman does not know whats happening nor if anyone can help. Its pure speculation and assumption on his side based on the things he knows up until a certain point - the point he left during the mentioned trial phase. So please dont tell everybody otherwise. Neither Hellman nor we as player know if Arasaka made any adjustments after or during their testphase on the prototype.
Hellmanns words cant be and arent proofed by the game in any way. Easy like that. If you trust him its on you but its by no means a „fact“. Stop using him as an argument, if its clearly not the case.
same counts for soulkiller. Alt said the version she developed in the first place was different than the one Arasaka uses nowadays. so there might be components on the relic and/or soulkiller which either Hellman nor Alt are aware of.
Assumption? Kinda. Fact? Noone knows not me, not you. PL might tell - we will see.
Last edited:
Going back through the game again and wrapping up the 100% Very Hard playthrough (and the last time until PL releases), the Delemain quests, along with the general attitude of Johnny and V at least learning to live together, makes me wonder if it isn't possible with help from Alt and Delemain to help figure out the missing bits to bridge the gap and make it happen, especially if they can work with the schematic that Hellman gave them. I mean, we helped Delemain pull himself together, and Alt merged with everyone in Mikoshi (at least, that's how I understood what Alt did), so there's some precedence of different personas merging together.
In a sense, it's also letting Johnny flip Arasaka the bird one last time because he gets to subvert the very technology that is trying to control him and force something upon him that he doesn't want - and do so by creating what's basically a child of V and Johnny with the merged personality.
From what I understand of how the relic functions, in theory, if the engram on the relic was altered enough to be a merged V/Johnny and it was still compatible with the chip, then in theory the V/Johnny should be stable while being an entirely new person.
In a sense, it's also letting Johnny flip Arasaka the bird one last time because he gets to subvert the very technology that is trying to control him and force something upon him that he doesn't want - and do so by creating what's basically a child of V and Johnny with the merged personality.
From what I understand of how the relic functions, in theory, if the engram on the relic was altered enough to be a merged V/Johnny and it was still compatible with the chip, then in theory the V/Johnny should be stable while being an entirely new person.
Shard > Relic 2.0 Prototype Specification (the 20% readable of the whole documentation that Hellman stole to Arasaka when he flee).
Ok, so it "was" the supervisor of the whole project Relic 2.0 until he left Arasaka which is when Saburo dies... So pretty much at the same time that V inserted the Relic in her head...
The Relic 2.0 is experimental, sure... But the Relic 2.0 is the chip which Yorinobu stole to Arasaka, which contain Johnny and which V inserted in her head. And as far as I know, no one know "better" the Relic 2.0 than Hellman (at least not Hanako, who probably didn't even know about the project before V talked to her about it with Goro in the building...)
But hey, I "assume"
One of the point of the story, it's the body have to "match" with the consciousness which is installed.
That's why V will die under 6 months if shes stay in her body, why Johnny will live if he take the body, why Arasaka is unable to provide a suitable body to V soon enough and why Saburo can take Yorinobu's body (his son).
So I "assume", an "entire new person" (consciousness) won't probably "fit" in V's body too, so this new person will die under 6 months too if installed in V's body.
Last edited: