Negotiating with terrorist Johnny Silverhand

[Rensarvik]

Johnny actually as a character is very defensive, and secretive, we only know as much as we do because the relic forced some of our memories to be shared. There are only a few moments where you can see his character. The most telling thing is he doesn't force control of V, and helps v retain control/survive. Regardless to how your relationship goes. That and you can see how they choose to live if they get the body.

and you really don't have to be his friend, you can treat him like an enemy.

Yeah, Johnny can be secretive, but that shouldn't limit player from raising the topic himself. It would be actually quite telling if you could question him about nuclear attack, and in response he simply went silent to avoid talking about it. But that never happens, all you can do is call him vaguely "terrorist" occasionally and end conversations early, which is extremely limited as far as interactions go.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

The only problem with Takemura is he's literally a dog who follows order. He doesn't care about the morality of anything, So to get on his good side you have to help Hanako or Saburo.

It sucks that a lot of story elements got cut. Because it would be nice if you could romance Takemura or Meredith Stout.

 

[Tofujunky]

Hanako knowingly brings back saburo, who according to his diary, told hanako he would wipe everyone in night city if he felt like it, right before seeing Yorinobu. Siding with takamura means being a big part of bringing saburo back to the world/power.

Its interesting to focus more on the personal, but saburo in power is a big price to pay

In the diary he said that he didn't want innocent lives lost which is why he didn't do it. Yorinobu on the other hand started global conflict attempting to escalate to war just to get back at daddy and he doesn't care about the lives lost. Now we are doing the "Yorinobu good Arasaka bad" debate, something completely different. This isn't star wars where there is a childish portrayal of good and evil. Plenty of Shogun did horrible things in feudal Japan. That does not make their daimyo evil for serving them.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Yeah, Johnny can be secretive, but that shouldn't limit player from raising the topic himself. It would be actually quite telling if you could question him about nuclear attack, and in response he simply went silent to avoid talking about it. But that never happens, all you can do is call him vaguely "terrorist" occasionally and end conversations early, which is extremely limited as far as interactions go.

you can bring up him blowing up the tower a number of times, he just doesn't really take the bait. I remember one response somewhere was like, blowing up people doesn't really change them.

Ah, I see, some of the more questioning dialogs only happen if you don't take the pills, but instead listen to him, and call him out. So maybe you can miss a lot of these opportunities. As far as I be seen though he will never come out and talk about that. But it is interesting and telling that you only get maximum relationship with him if you challenge him, and he admits to being an ahole. Suggests he doesn't really see himself as a great dude

 

[Tofujunky]

The only problem with Takemura is he's literally a dog who follows order. He doesn't care about the morality of anything, So to get on his good side you have to help Hanako or Saburo.

It sucks that a lot of story elements got cut. Because it would be nice if you could romance Takemura or Meredith Stout.

I mean he is exactly like any Samurai in feudal Japan so if you think Samurai are dogs, well I guess I can't argue. If you think Takemura doesn't care about innocent lives, doesn't care about V, is simply manipulative, you really don't understand this game at all. Johnny killed thousands of lives blowing up Arasaka tower, did Takemura go rogue and do some terrorist attack? I would say by the devil's ending he cares about V more than the Arasakas, and you can't go by what he says and does at face value. You have to read between the lines.

My biggest disappointment in this game was lack of Takemura romance, but really it is there, there is just no completion because he cannot have a relationship without being in good graces with the Arasakas. That goes back to traditional Japanese culture. In fact in feudal Japan, Saburo would likely arrange a wife for Takemura.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

In the diary he said that he didn't want innocent lives lost which is why he didn't do it. Yorinobu on the other hand started global conflict attempting to escalate to war just to get back at daddy and he doesn't care about the lives lost. Now we are doing the "Yorinobu good Arasaka bad" debate, something completely different. This isn't star wars where there is a childish portrayal of good and evil. Plenty of Shogun did horrible things in feudal Japan. That does not make their daimyo evil for serving them.

the diary at no point mentions innocent lives, he just says hanako asked me not to, so I didnt decide yet.

And its not about takamura is evil, for me, its about do I want to be part of ressurecting a dude who started like two wars, kidnaps people and forces their ghosts to do his bidding, using their memories on his enemies, and contemplates killing everyone in night city rather than let anyone use the tech he created and will later exploit.

takamura might be great guy, but helping Arasaka isnt about him, he is already back in. For me the question isn't Johnny or takamura, its Help status quo arasaka or don't.

now, I will say the player doesn't know this at the time, not completely anyway, but in hindsight, helping arasaka is a pretty bad look.

 

[CS554]

Mike Pondsmith said in some interview that Saburo and his Militech counterparts are really relics who cannot let go. Yoburo saw through all that bullshit, all the excuses made and was really sick of it. That doesn't make him good or evil, it's all in the shades of gray with his character, while Saburo is something else all together.

Takemura is among other things honor bound and conversation with him before sneaking into Arasaka facility reveals a lot about that. Good or bad is sort of beside the point but he has certain integrity very few other NPC's has.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I mean he is exactly like any Samurai in feudal Japan so if you think Samurai are dogs, well I guess I can't argue. If you think Takemura doesn't care about innocent lives, doesn't care about V, is simply manipulative, you really don't understand this game at all. Johnny killed thousands of lives blowing up Arasaka tower, did Takemura go rogue and do some terrorist attack? I would say by the devil's ending he cares about V more than the Arasakas, and you can't go by what he says and does at face value. You have to read between the lines.

My biggest disappointment in this game was lack of Takemura romance, but really it is there, there is just no completion because he cannot have a relationship without being in good graces with the Arasakas. That goes back to traditional Japanese culture. In fact in feudal Japan, Saburo would likely arrange a wife for Takemura.

in the devil ending he says tells V you can't judge Arasaka's by human standards, they are beyond us. So I'm not sure he has had a revelation, but he does appear to be a little more open. Maybe if they continue the path he will help V survive or align with a different Arasaka. Buut as it is at the end, Vampire Lord Arasaka selling immortality to the chosen few, pretty scary world

 

[Tofujunky]

Hanako knowingly brings back saburo, who according to his diary, told hanako he would wipe everyone in night city if he felt like it, right before seeing Yorinobu. Siding with takamura means being a big part of bringing saburo back to the world/power.

Its interesting to focus more on the personal, but saburo in power is a big price to pay

He says right here he doesn't want innocent lives lost of people working at the port.


He also said the reason he wanted to nuke the place is basically the same as why Johnny wanted to nuke Arasaka. Didn't want Militech getting the relic

In the devil ending he says tells V you can't judge Arasaka's by human standards, they are beyond us. So I'm not sure he has had a revelation, but he does appear to be a little more open. Maybe if they continue the path he will help V survive or align with a different Arasaka. Buut as it is at the end, Vampire Lord Arasaka selling immortality to the chosen few, pretty scary world

1. If you believe Arasaka is to be blamed for everything and simply destroying them will bring justice and balance to the world, then I understand why you would not go with Takemura. However, the tech for Soul Killer and the mikoshi-type "prisons" were not invented under the supervision of Saburo. If you read the lore, Alt developed the tech with ITS and Saburo intercepted her to keep his enemies from getting it. Of course, he wants to use it against his own enemies so he is no better than them. But this is why blowing up Arasaka and treating them as the only problem in the world is foolish in my opinion. With Arasaka gone Militech would just take over and do the exact same as them, or worse. Yorinobu is also causing world war just to get back at daddy and he even brags about it in the end. Saburo coming back ends the conflict, but on the other hand it's only because he has figured out how to make everyone scared shitless out of him.


2. What Takmura is actually saying is that he and V literally have no right to judge them, saying the wrong shit will just get you both killed. Everything he says in the ending is worded in a way to keep both of you from looking disloyal to Arasaka. When you say "Saburo should still be dead", he says "Many try to kill him, but he will survive them all". Which makes what you said look like it was an expression of wonder and amazement for his success, rather than idiotically blurting out that he literally should be dead. If you say "I feel bad for Yorinobu" he says "you mean you regret his fate" because he doesn't want you to look like you are loyal to Yorinobu or wished him to succeed. If you say that "Arasakas are one fucked up family" he just outright tells you to watch what you say.

If the Arasakas are suspicious of your loyalty then they would mess with your engram if not kill both of you. The conversation is being monitored by Arasaka. This is something corpo V mentions in an earlier mission. You have to be careful what you say and do because they are listening in 24/7.

Like how Tiger Claws listen in to Maiko so she acts the same way when Judy confronted her.

Also: see below for Saburo's diary.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

He says right here he doesn't want innocent lives lost of people working at the port.


He also said the reason he wanted to nuke the place is basically the same as why Johnny wanted to nuke Arasaka. Didn't want Militech getting the relic

What he is actually saying is that V and Takemura literally have no right to judge them, saying the wrong shit will just get them both killed. Everything he says in the ending is worded in a way to keep both of you from looking disloyal to Arasaka. When you say "Saburo should still be dead", he says "Many try to kill him, but he will survive them all". Which makes what you said look like it was an expression of wonder and amazement for his success, rather than idiotically blurting out that he literally should be dead. If you say "I feel bad for Yorinobu" he says "you mean you regret his fate" because he doesn't want you to look like you are loyal to Yorinobu or wished him to succeed.

If they are suspicious of that then they would mess with your engram if not kill both of you. Their conversation is being monitored by Arasaka. This is something corpo V mentions in an earlier mission. You have to be careful what you say and do because they are listening in 24/7.

Like when Tiger Claws listen in to Maiko making her act the same way when Judy confronted her.

Also: see below for Saburo's diary.

my interpretation of the first part is he spared them from being shot 5 times for every one person who died, but instead gave them a quick death with missiles. but maybe the grammar is incorrect and they mean I spare you from missiles instead of I spare you with missiles.

The difference is Johnny tried to destroy relic so no one would have it, and people accidently got blown up, and saburo wants only himself to have the relic, and the people he sells it to, and intentionally plans to blow people up. Also, you aren't choosing between ressurecting Johnny or Saburo, you can ressurect neither.

 

[Tofujunky]

my interpretation of the first part is he spared them from being shot 5 times for every one person who died, but instead gave them a quick death with missiles. but maybe the grammar is incorrect and they mean I spare you from missiles instead of I spare you with missiles.

The difference is Johnny tried to destroy relic so no one would have it, and people accidently got blown up, and saburo wants only himself to have the relic, and the people he sells it to, and intentionally plans to blow people up. Also, you aren't choosing between ressurecting Johnny or Saburo, you can ressurect neither.

Johnny thinks he is destroying it so no one would have it, but that's just not the result of what would happen. Based on the lore, Militech provided Johnny with the bomb and everything because they wanted to take out Arasaka and keep the tech for themselves.


Yorinobu and Johnny are noble idiots. They have a couple principles but they do things so careless, impulsive, and wreckless that it doesn't matter. Everything they do just makes things worse. And their their principles do not extend to caring about the people they kill along the way.


You are choosing between being loyalty to Johnny vs Takemura by your decision to rescue him. Your choice depends on whether you want a V that has let Johnny take over to decide things or a V that resists him and continues to make the decisions herself/himself.

Post automatically merged: Feb 15, 2021

Mike Pondsmith said in some interview that Saburo and his Militech counterparts are really relics who cannot let go. Yoburo saw through all that bullshit, all the excuses made and was really sick of it. That doesn't make him good or evil, it's all in the shades of gray with his character, while Saburo is something else all together.

Takemura is among other things honor bound and conversation with him before sneaking into Arasaka facility reveals a lot about that. Good or bad is sort of beside the point but he has certain integrity very few other NPC's has.

Couldn't have said that better

 

[Guest 4553918]

Thanks to everyone for commenting on my post. Very interesting perspectives reflecting the passion people feel for the game and source material.
Difficult to embrace Johnny's redemption story arc when my choices are to work with Hanako (whom I'm sure only has my best interests in mind - I'd come out of this, if at all, as a version of Adam Smasher or Alt) or to rampage through Arasaka Tower again. How many more people must "Johnny V" kill to redeem him or to prove he was right or wrong?
And regardless of the ending, after The Heist the game inevitably becomes Johnny Silverhand OverWrite. After reaching an ending I am not sure there is going to be much impetus to replay, even with a different background and skill set. The game only gives us one thing to do.
Perhaps if we had the opportunity to play in a world with, for example, Johnny, Rogue, Santiago, Morgan and Spider or learn more about them outside of Johnny's fragmented memories and be a character who could approach an ascendant Arasaka and other megacorps with an independent viewpoint. The game could have numerous endings, some of which would cause many players to restart immediately to fix the mess they created in the last playthrough.
Looks like I will be leaving with Panam. I hope there's an animation showing I brought the cat with me. If I wasn't involved with her I'd probably stay in cyberspace with Alt and let Johnny have the husk that's left.

Post automatically merged: Feb 16, 2021

Mike Pondsmith said in some interview that Saburo and his Militech counterparts are really relics who cannot let go. Yoburo saw through all that bullshit, all the excuses made and was really sick of it. That doesn't make him good or evil, it's all in the shades of gray with his character, while Saburo is something else all together.

Takemura is among other things honor bound and conversation with him before sneaking into Arasaka facility reveals a lot about that. Good or bad is sort of beside the point but he has certain integrity very few other NPC's has.

Saburo and the rest of the corporate heads are not very different from the old members of Congress or House of Commons who won't retire and relinquish the power they've grown accustomed to. Not good or evil, just relics increasingly distanced from their constituents.
Takemura is trying to redeem his honor because he knows he was set up. HIs is real redemption story.

 

[Cheylus]

(I've got dreadful flashbacks of "Anders did nothing wrong" in Dragon Age 2)

 

[Tofujunky]

Thanks to everyone for commenting on my post. Very interesting perspectives reflecting the passion people feel for the game and source material.
Difficult to embrace Johnny's redemption story arc when my choices are to work with Hanako (whom I'm sure only has my best interests in mind - I'd come out of this, if at all, as a version of Adam Smasher or Alt) or to rampage through Arasaka Tower again. How many more people must "Johnny V" kill to redeem him or to prove he was right or wrong?
And regardless of the ending, after The Heist the game inevitably becomes Johnny Silverhand OverWrite. After reaching an ending I am not sure there is going to be much impetus to replay, even with a different background and skill set. The game only gives us one thing to do.
Perhaps if we had the opportunity to play in a world with, for example, Johnny, Rogue, Santiago, Morgan and Spider or learn more about them outside of Johnny's fragmented memories and be a character who could approach an ascendant Arasaka and other megacorps with an independent viewpoint. The game could have numerous endings, some of which would cause many players to restart immediately to fix the mess they created in the last playthrough.
Looks like I will be leaving with Panam. I hope there's an animation showing I brought the cat with me. If I wasn't involved with her I'd probably stay in cyberspace with Alt and let Johnny have the husk that's left.

Post automatically merged: Feb 16, 2021

Saburo and the rest of the corporate heads are not very different from the old members of Congress or House of Commons who won't retire and relinquish the power they've grown accustomed to. Not good or evil, just relics increasingly distanced from their constituents.
Takemura is trying to redeem his honor because he knows he was set up. HIs is real redemption story.

Exactly how I read into it. I've been involved in politics for a few years. Things being black and white would be so much more simple. Wish we could go in and make our demands, change things overnight and not have to work within a system run by self-serving fossils, but that just isn't the reality. Unless you get a massive revolution of millions of people behind you, you cannot make changes from the outside to these systems. You have to work from the inside, by replacing those people one by one or using leverage and negotiate. Deals with the devil is what you have to do in politics to get anything done. I felt like getting on the Arasaka's good side had more potential for V to change things in the world than simply blowing up their building again, although the communist in me would really really enjoy burning it all down right then and there. I guess this is why I love Takemura so much, I don't believe a lot of people understand him but I do.

 

[CyberDiligence]

Also: see below for Saburo's diary.

Oh, so it was about saving the world after all?

 

[Tofujunky]

Oh, so it was about saving the world after all?

What do you mean, specifically? Everyone thinks they are saving the world.

 

[AikoHayashi]

Johnny is a U.S. Army veteran, rockstar, and a terrorist as much as he helps Militech with planting the bomb, although his goal is to help Alt to escape and to destroy the Soul killer. If you spend some time with him he turns out to be not that bad and quite supportive for V and shows compassion for things that happen on the side quests. I personally hated Arasaka from the moment I started as a corpo and saw how they fried the ESC members, so I didn't need him to hate them Just had some quality time with Johhny on the roller coaster

 

[lyin321]

It is possible he just learn how to best manipulate you
Silverhand might not be a nice guy, but he is charming if he wants to....

...and wasn't that pretty far into the game and needing high levels of understanding between V and Johny (tho I might be wrong)....at this point V's 'brain' might be replaced enough that you begin liking him simply because you are becoming him

....and I didn't know Jenkins' last name was Arasaka
....joking ofcourse....

 

[Hammerstein]

afaik you arent forced to do anything johnny tells you
you can ignore his requests and shut him up with pills
most of the time you can do the exact opposite of what he wants

i dont see what the problem is here

The problem is that the game actively punishes you for not liking Johnny and antagonizing him.

Both playstyles, working with him, or seeing him as a threat and working against him, should be equally viable. Instead rejecting him whenever possible puts you on the road towards the Arasaka ending and we know how that plays out.

The real Johnny Silverhand died in 2023 and trying to save your life, while not listening to the digital malware that came out of Mikoshi, should have led to a better ending. Instead V gets painted as a coward and corporate sellout.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

The problem is that the game actively punishes you for not liking Johnny and antagonizing him.

Both playstyles, working with him, or seeing him as a threat and working against him, should be equally viable. Instead rejecting him whenever possible puts you on the road towards the Arasaka ending and we know how that plays out.

The real Johnny Silverhand died in 2023 and trying to save your life, while not listening to the digital malware that came out of Mikoshi, should have led to a better ending. Instead V gets painted as a coward and corporate sellout.

you can still get the nomad ending while crapping on Johnny.