Overpowered silvers that need to be gold

[Wonderboy8700]

Overpowered silvers that need to be gold

There are a few silvers that are so powerful that an opponent can win the match by playing them, (especially when you are running a synergy deck.) These cards need to be made gold so that they cannot be spawned by runes, or decoyed and played again, or returned to the hand/board.

1. Sweers. This card can single handedly defeat consumption decks and henslet decks with no way to counter. What's even worse is that because this card works on revealed units, opponents don't even need to time it correctly to use it.

2. Odrin. It was fine when it was a one of kind you lock or kill. But this card in a henslet deck or cursed deck is more powerful than several golds including the triss butterfly spell, the yennefer conjurer spell, and the ale of ancestor cards. It boosts a whole row per turn, moves around, copied by runestone and revived. Any card with a base of 8 that can give that many points per turn should be gold (or its gold counterparts should be made silver.) p.s the same applies to blueboy lugos, even though it less commonly used.

3. Harald houndsnout. This unit has a base of 6 but is capable of 20 or 25 without much effort. Wilfred gives +3, Wilmar plus 11, and Wilhelm damages an entire row, but being generous and assuming it only has 3 units on it, that is still a bonus 3 damage. So using this math that is 23 points from a silver which can be revived, runestoned, and decoyed. If people build whole decks to use ciri at 25 and Tibor gives the opponent another draw if it buffs to 25, then why does this card get to be silver. Worse, there is very little defense that can be played against it, because unlike the previously mentioned golds, the points are so spread out you cannot scorch or reset. This card is just way too powerful for a silver.

 

[Pruny]

Silver spyes and restore should be gold.
no more runestone spy, no more aguara restore.

 

[W12]

1. Nenneke can counter Sweers. And Nenneke can be replayed or played from deck.

2. Odrin can be Muzzled, banished, copied, compressed, stealed from graveyard and simply killed twice. Neutralized by removal of other units or effect of golden weather. Dwarf pyrotechnics also can use row spreading.

 

[MaroonJack]

Sweers is fine. It's a good disruption card, but it’s not oppressive. It doesn't single handedly defeat consume, as there are ways to play around it. Don’t rely on the Nekker chain so heavily in this matchup. Don't be greedy with it. Utilize Slyzards, keep Nekkers in hand or withhold them until R3, use Nekker Warrior on different units if you have to (like Arachas Drones). As you'll climb the ladder you won't see much Sweers. With Henselt it’s a non issue. I'm a predominantly NR machines player, and never lost because of Sweers. So you’re denied one machine type and that's IF the opponent guesses correctly which one you want to Henselt. Also there is Nenneke. No big deal at all in my opinion.

I couldn't be bothered to run Odrin in my Henselt deck. It just isn't as reliable as my other silvers and easy to counter. I don't play Skellige at all, but I find Harald easy to disrupt or play around.

The only real issue at the moment are silver spies. They could be gold OR excluded from the "create" cards (like Runestones, IO, Hym) OR Reds could give us more tools for building card advantage, in which case silver spies would somewhat lose their impact. Right now they are the only option for building CA, which is why they are so powerful.

 

[Wonderboy8700]

There are 3 ways to look at this, since stating method types does not work (especially since I modify the methods like consume and henslet machine,) I will point them out in more detail. Btw, I agree about silver spies but there are so many threads on the subject (some of which I have posted in, so we can ignore that for now.)

1. Numbers. The most powerful golds are usually worth between 35 and 40 when played correctly. They can be worth even more, but these high numbers are all situational. Sweers card taking away 2 base neckers plus 2 enhanced neckers is a base of 16, Plus his initial 9. If you use a winch approach with henslet, 3 towers sent to graveyard is a minimum of 30, plus his initial 9. The lowest quality siege weapon is a 6 multiplied by 2 is 12 plus a base 9 is 21. So the card has a minimum of 21 with a maximum of 39. But wait, this number can get higher still. When you use nenneke to counter (a NR exclusive which only brings back 3, not the 4 you can use doing a double winch approach,) the opponent can replay the card and double the value. Also when you don't have nenneke in hand the opponent can move on and take out a second siege unit or fresh crew reinforcement which disrupts the entire deck. I am not arguing for the removal of the card from the game, simply that it be treated as a gold (and given that it is more powerful than 2/3 of all NG golds, is not unreasonable.) No one responded to my math argument above for the other 2 golds so I will not repeat it here.

2. Defense. Some cards can be defended against every card on my list is almost impossible to defend against long term. If a unit has a base of 7 or above it cannot be destroyed by any faction other than NR with a single card (NR has vandergrift's blade which does 9 and banishes.) Given that a runestoned can make a second copy of these cards and they can be returned, decoyed, resurrected, etc... artifact compression is the only spell that can actually destroy them consistently. Also in the case of lugos and snout the points are decentralized so this doesn't even work. Also in the case of sweers the damage is done on deployment and thus cannot be countered with defense. If you want to play cards this difficult to defend against it should cost a gold slot with another good to revive.

3. If you don't care about the power argument or the defense argument then look at the fun aspect. At present you cannot ban factions or choose what faction you play against. With lugos, and odrin it is not that bad because people don't often abuse them, and even when they do, it does not guarantee victory (though I stand by the argument that they are too powerful to be silver if other equivalent cards are gold.) But sweers is frequently abused and does ruin the game for the above mentioned strategies as well as others like the NG multiplier, or the foltest boost. As for snout, how many threads do we have complaining about how overpowered the bear deck is giving it a cursed card which can be created 3 or 4 times that is more powerful than olaf (and maybe ciri nova) on top of an already stacked deck is just silly.

 

[W12]

Sometimes Sweers played at card that I have zero copies in my deck. Also with winch you are usually run Shani and spare machinery type. Yes it is annoyning card sometimes, but so are scorch, AC, summoning circle, Aelirenn and Operator

SK Harald maybe should be gold. It is spammed often.

 

[W12]

According to meta report nobody play Odrin and rarely someone use Harald.

 

[Wonderboy8700]

W12, it is not simply annoying, it can be a deck killer. I emphasis the word can. Name 5 other cards (or even 3) that can disrupt an entire synergy better than sweers.

As for the cards you listed, these are annoying and powerful when used correctly, but also serve to keep the player honest. You can avoid scorch by trying to keep 1 cards power higher than the rest to minimize the damage. Operator has a base power of 5 and gives your opponent a card which can still be useful. Summoning circle I agree is very annoying and now that it works on silver spies can be game breaking but for the most part is consistent with the power level of a silver.

Regarding your last point about sweers only being worth 9 if you have all copies of the card in your hand, the same is true of igni if there is no row above 24, doesn't mean igni shouldn't be a gold.

 

[4RM3D]

There are a few silvers that are so powerful that an opponent can win the match by playing them, (especially when you are running a synergy deck.) These cards need to be made gold so that they cannot be spawned by runes, or decoyed and played again, or returned to the hand/board.

First of all, saying turn silvers into gold really limit the premise. Instead, you should look for ways to tweak the silvers while keeping them -well- silver. Secondly, while gold cards cannot be recreated or replayed, doesn't mean you should use this as a solution to prevent silver spam. Next, none of the cards you've mentioned are gold-worthy. Harald houndsnout could theoretically be made gold, if he was buffed a little, but that's not something you would want.

Also, your calculations on Sweers are way off, besides that he is a dead card more often than not. I am not going into specifics here because it goes beyond the scope of this thread. But, I'll at least give an easier example why you cannot simply add all numbers together. Hawker Support is a 7 + 3 strength unit, right? Not really, when the 3 strength is used as a carry-over mechanic, then it could be counted double. Calculating his true value is already complex, never mind Sweers.

Lastly, Odrin is rarely even used. The "but left uncountered" argument applies to all cards with continuous effects. Even Ocvist becomes threatening because he gives card advantage.

EDIT:

Regarding your last point about sweers only being worth 9 if you have all copies of the card in your hand, the same is true of igni if there is no row above 24, doesn't mean igni shouldn't be a gold.

Nor does it mean that Sweers shouldn't remain silver.

Also, speaking of Sweers and Henselt, both could be tweaked to only allow a max of two units to be removed/pulled.

 

[Wonderboy8700]

4RM3D before I respond I have a question, how do I edit my posts. Every so often I find a typo and cannot fix it.

Back to the topic at hand. Your use of hawker support is an excellent example of how synergy effects math. If the +3 boosts an elven swordmaster then it really becomes a possible +6 because the 3 extra points increase damage by that much as well. Synergy is the basis for all strategy in gwent. Some players could take the highest point value cards, throw them in a deck and just try to overpower opponents but they will have trouble doing so. That said, the fun in gwent is building synergy decks, taking them into battle and trying to figure out how to make your deck work will preventing your opponent from doing so. It may be true that sweers can be a dead card, but most times I play against it that's not the case. You commented that my solution is the problem more than the card itself and that is where I disagree. You are right you can modify the card, but I actually see the value of the cards as they are now. Harald is a high point card, lugos and odrin provide continuing full row point changes, and sweers is a disruptor. All of these cards have merit by themselves (and I want it absolutely clear I am not advocating there removal or nerfing them,) and should be acknowledged for that value. That said, silver cards should not be significantly more powerful than similar gold cards. I gave three examples of golds that have continuing effects, all of them are less powerful than the other 2 I mentioned. Butterfly is disrupted by damaging a unit so that instead of multiple bonuses the buff is focused on one, ale is an easy boon to dispel with a hazard, and yen can be blocked with a single card several points higher than the other cards on board. Whole row effects are likely to effect more targets, so why not treat them the same (or in the alternative make the golds I mentioned silver.)

Harald's math is straight forward. The only variable is the number of enemies on the row when Wilmar is killed. If you want to boost him even more than he would become more powerful than ciri nova, (who should probably be buffed by another 5 or 10 if she is going to be an effective closer,) olaf, and hjalmar. To your point you could make him doomed, remove the clan tag so he cannot be revived, or nerfed in some other way to keep him silver, I just don't see the point in having silvers that are so overpowered, especially in a faction which is already swimming in cards more powerful than any other faction. Between beastmasters, light long ships, clan axemen, berserker marauders, and all the other synergy friendly cards, it just seems to be too much.

I want to draw special attention to the comment you made at the end of your post when you said "Nor does it mean that Sweers shouldn't remain silver." I love the way you addressed this and I see the false equivalence you were trying to point out. My point (which I made poorly and for that I apologise,) was that plenty of great gold cards can be useless or close to it by virtue of when you get them and what is going on. A short list of golds that can be worth 20+ or less than 10 include igni, schirru, iorveth, ithlinne, Philippa, dijkstra, letho, cahir, succubus, and the list goes on and on. The value of these cards is more than numbers, but rather how they impact the game when played. Sweers can be worth as little as 9 points, but he can also be a total deck killer. His overall impact is why he should be gold.

 

[partci]

... Sweers can be worth as little as 9 points, but he can also be a total deck killer. His overall impact is why he should be gold.

If Sweers is so overpowered I would've seen him a lot more on the ladder or in casual. Making him Gold will just make him even more unplayable, as he is absolutely situational and you have to pray to hit something good (or some really greedy Nekkers), that will not brick him as a mere 9.

 

[Wonderboy8700]

partci Runestone can make him. I have never played on pro ladder so I cannot speak to that. As for casual and ranked, it is very common when playing rank 18-20 opponents. A great example is just yesterday when I was playing a NG deck in casual for the daily quest, any queen deck would auto forfit as soon as they saw NG.

 

[partci]

partci Runestone can make him....

Err... I'll leave it like that.

 

[Wonderboy8700]

partci. I don't get it but I am new to the forum and if I made some kind of error in tagging you please let me know.

 

[partci]

Wonderboy8700

My point is the fact that you see him pulled from Runestone, than actually included in the deck you are playing against. Just like Fake Ciri (now Empress).

 

[4RM3D]

4RM3D before I respond I have a question, how do I edit my posts. Every so often I find a typo and cannot fix it.

Like this:


I guess you are browsing on your phone/tablet, right? Try to flip it.

Back to the topic at hand. more than numbers, but rather how they impact the game when played. Sweers can be worth as little as 9 points, but he can also be a total deck killer. His overall impact is why he should be gold.

First off, some silver cards can be better than gold cards. You could nerf the silver cards or buff the gold cards. However, you actually have to look at the utility the card offers before doing so. And when you start comparing cards, things become very tricky, real quick. To give an example, let's talk about movies. Ladybird (mid-budget => silver) is one of last year's best movies, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (blockbuster => gold) pales compared to that. Does that mean Ladybird is better than GotG? That depends on what you are looking for in a movie. Plenty of people will find Ladybird boring. The same logic also applies to Gwent. You can say that individual cards are good or bad, but you cannot just compare them based on strength. Like you've said, you also need to look at how it impacts the game, but even that doesn't give a full picture.

Back to Sweers. If Sweers can destroy your deck, then something there is wrong with your deck. Don't play a one-trick-pony deck. But even then things are getting out of hand with other cards and no easy solution to fix the problem. When you look at Viper Witchers, for example, they can easily become a 10 point snipe on a stick. Are they problematic? Not on their own. However, if you are playing Axemen and every one of those is getting sniped there is nothing you can do. Nerfing Viper Witchers destroys their archetype and buffing Axemen will wreak havoc on everyone not running Thunder-like cards. This meta is rock-paper-scissors gone out of hand.

So, how do you solve this? Making Sweers gold (i.e. removing him from the game), doesn't solve anything. You'll have to take a step back and look at archetypes as a whole. Trying to balance this is an arduous task. I would go on more about this, but I am running out of time. I'll leave it as this, for now.

 

[Wonderboy8700]

partci, I meant that in addition to being in every deck, they can also pull him out of the Runestone.

 

[Wonderboy8700]

4RM3D. I agree that there are times when a silver or even bronze is worth more to a strategy then a gold. Where I disagree is that there are instances where the base impact of a silver (not often the case with bronze) is by itself superior to that of a gold. Why limit gold to 4 if they are not the top tier cards. Why limit silver to 6 and not 4 if they are supposed to be equally as dangerous. I also disagree that making a valuable silver card a gold is removing it from the game, (though I guess this comes down to a disagreement about the base value in terms of power and in game impact.) As for your last point about one trick pony decks, some of the ones I use are more diverse SK and ST especially, but there is nothing wrong with building a deck around consumption and nekkers, or towers and siege damage. I don't look at gwent as a career or a sport to make real world currency, I look at it as a game. With that in mind I make suggestions on how to improve the quality for the casual player as well as the hardcore player. I stand by my suggestion that those 4 cards all are capable of producing as much or more impact than most of the neutral golds and some the faction specific golds and thus should be changed to gold.

 

[hydra66]

Effect wise, silver spies and scorch are far more powerful than vanilla Geralt or Triss. You could argue about restore- it helps faction identity but it feels pushed for its rarity. In certain contexts, wardancer should be silver given the card advantage it generates.

But be wary of just snap changing this stuff- you don't know what the developer has on the drawing board for cards about to be released that also needs to be taken into context balance wise. Magic designs cards 18 months in advance, HS designs cards 2-3 expansions in advance. CDPR's under pressure re: new cards but hasn't established a balance re: its old ones yet.

 

[MaroonJack]

I think the math on Sweers is wrong. Sweers is a 9 points play. You can't call cards moved from your deck to graveyard a "point swing", because it's not a value removed or added to the board. It messes up the opponent's game plan, sure, but it doesn't produce a swing. You say that "3 towers sent to graveyard is a minimum of 30". It's not. I can typically win a game with Henselt without towers. The deck runs 3 types of machines, or 2 types of machines plus Siege Masters. So Sweers only denies me access to one machine type or Siege Masters and that's IF the opponent guesses correctly which unit he should try to deny. But it also thins my deck a bit, which is good. I can still run four Reinforced Trebuchets for 4 points per turn or four Battering Rams for huge removal chains. I can adapt my strategy.

I stand by my suggestion that those 4 cards all are capable of producing as much or more impact than most of the neutral golds and some the faction specific golds and thus should be changed to gold.

I disagree. Scorch is capable of wiping four strength 13 units at once, or even nine strength 6 units at once, or three powerful 17+ units. It's capable of swings exceeding 50 points! Clearly it should be gold. Not. Just because a card is capable of producing a huge swing doesn't mean that it does so consistently and those cards in my opinion do no such thing. If you believe they are, run them. Make a deck utilizing them and I think you'll see it's not the case.