[Patch 1.1 Bug] Item randomisation broken (hotfixed in patch 1.11)

[thE_29]

Just done an Aldecaldos ending run on my level 26, the Aldecaldo Jacket had four sockets when I got it, when I restarted from PoNR save point, the version in my backpack only had 2 sockets

That was also in 1.06.. The jacket you get after the ending, is not the same you have during the mission. If you add mods to it, they are also gone after the ending.

And before you flee with Panam, you can pick up 2-3 legendary clothing pieces next to tank. Which makes no sense at all.. The game is about to end and you dont keep them?!

Post automatically merged: Jan 27, 2021

We do not believe it is seeded by xyz coordinates because the container never moves - it doesn't make any sense. Or maybe it is and this is a mistake, which may explain why item type in static containers is not randomising. But we don't have enough data to say for sure if it is or isn't right now.

Well, the one test with the loot from a person kinda indicated a loot-system with xyz coordinates.

And EXACTLY, a BUG makes NO SENSE. XYZ for loot system makes perfect sense for loot droped by people. Not for static containers, which would be the bug.

 

[Hayte]

The Pacifica Ripperdoc guard certainly implies it. I think it also matches with my experience of save scumming the balls off Matilda K. Rose since she has a patrol route and stands still periodically. I did notice I could roll certain types of tank top or boots by killing her in different positions on the map. She can drop the purple biker pants which are like my favourite pants in the game so I was trying to get them off her with 3 sockets.

I think this method of rng loot generation is fine for highly mobile enemies since it is very unlikely the player will kill the same enemy in exactly the same coordinates enough times in quick succession to generate repeat items. Its not true randomness and never is with these things but in this scenario its "good enough". In Cyberpunk's case, enemies often have a habit of just standing around (even when alerted to your presence), so together with save/load game state, its easier to expose the mechanics of loot generation.

Divinity: Original Sin 2 does RNG loot similar to Cyberpunk although the seed method for static containers is different. If you walk into a room with 2 vases, a bookshelf and a chest, then open these containers in different sequences, you can generate different items in the final container. If you reload game state and open containers in a precise order, you can generate repeat item types and rarity allowing you to target farm a particular item. Then you can save scum this container sequence to reroll the stats.

I tried rolling back to 1.06 to hit up H6 containers but I'm having a lot of problems. All of my savegames blackscreen so I had to re-install 1.1, which broke Cyber Engine Tweaks. Now I have all that fixed, I can do some more testing. So Guilmonxk looted Boostknit Neotac Pants which is what I did in 1.06! I was going to pick those up as legendary before patch 1.1 landed.

What we kind of want to know is this: are the contents of this container procedurally generated or were they static prior to 1.1? Is it possible to loot anything other than Boostknit Neotac pants in 1.06 or Trendy Sazan Lily Square Glasses in 1.1? If yes, what are the mechanics of loot generation? Is it seeded? If we suspect it is, how do we find the seed input? Well, we can try waiting x minutes/hours in real time and then trying to loot the container again to see if it is time based. Or we could try passing x hours in-game time. Or moving a certain distance away, passing time and returning to see if it is proximity based.

We definitely know mods are bugged. But does it seem normal to you that non descript containters always have the same item types for all players with no variability? That seems strange to me but perhaps it always worked this way and we just never noticed. But if they were static, why did this container go from only generating Boostknit Neotac Pants in 1.06 to only generating Trendy Sazan Lily Square Glasses in 1.1?

 

[Dagobert666]

So, I am sure that we will not get any further at this point. We have more than enough DATA to submit a meaningful bug report.

1) We KNOW that everyone gets the same LOOT right now. The QA Guys at CDPR can easily reprod this. This is always the most important thing when troubleshooting software, reproducibility.

2) We KNOW that a large part of the LOOT from the "Loot Boxes" RARE, EPIC and Legendary Clothing is WITHOUT (or with too few) Mod SLOTS. Which is completely fatal for reasons of gamplay mechanics:

A) For clothes, only the MOD slots count. Because it has no other stats. Ordinary clothing with 0 slots is worth just as much as legendary clothing with 0 slots.
B) Because all the containers in the game only drop LOOT once. They don't respawn and they don't change their content. Therefore everything in the static containers that is currently (since 1.1) useless, is for everyone and forever useless and garbage

We even have a reason for it, Mod: "Unknown_4C882AC5: 19". Only the programmers know what this is all about.
For us, that's not important at all. QA knows where to look, that is the main thing.

Conclusion: As long as we don't know whether all of this is wanted and what triggered it, it is completely pointless to continue working on the problem. This is a QA thing.
If anyone enjoys reverse engineering the entire CODE of CP2077 ,OK. I enjoy that too but I don't think that helps either CDPR: Development or CDPR: QA with the loot problem.

@Hayte Have you already forwarded the information? I think I remember you mentioning that.

 

[Hayte]

Yes they have save games in front of the legendary media ocuset from a level 31 and level 50 character for comparison. I submitted the working theory we have on Unknown_4C882AC5:19, although I did mention that this is an item ID returned by Cybercat Save Editor and may not be an ID used internally by the game - it could be an identifier used by the Save Editor to reference an item it doesn't recognize or cannot resolve to a valid item ID.

I still think static container loot is a perplexing puzzle but if there is nothing else to discover, I will probably move on to testing bugged perks, because there are a lot of them and to date none of the hotfixes have addressed them.

 

[thE_29]

We even have a reason for it, Mod: "Unknown_4C882AC5: 19". Only the programmers know what this is all about.

What you forgot: This unknown item isnt something new. The game kinda always worked like that. This Unknown mod gives +7armor, but REMOVES the mod-slot ingame.

Thats why the armor value was higher, if it had lesser open mod slots.

But thats not new with 1.1

 

[Hayte]

Correct. The theory goes that clothing always had the maximum number of sockets allowable by its rarity. When you were save scumming legendary torsos in 1.06 you were not rolling the sockets and won if you got 4. You were rolling the mods and you won if you got zero "Me-Thrills". Which is why mods not randomizing properly in 1.1 has serious consequences. It results in permanently disabled sockets for everyone, on all platforms, forever.

 

[Valconir]

It's not so much that Armadillo mods are "nice" it's that they're near essential.

At lev 1 with junk gear your character is a two-hit-wonder.
At lev 50 with anything less then 4-slotted legendary gear you're still a two-hit-wonder.

Your character is no more durable at lev 50 then they were at lev 1.
Why bother with levels at all then?

Enemy NPC are also capable doing headshots either normal or critical, so just know that when you got hit with big damage, it is because of this reason. I think it is realistic in a way and make the game not boring.

Post automatically merged: Jan 27, 2021

A lot of people like to put together outfits on their characters too, for example, if I cant equip but one thing to the Corpo set then it's useless to actually wear the armor even if they fix this by letting you add slots to the armor with crafting you then have to pick crafting and waste points which limit what build you can do. Some people actually replay to try out different specs. The whole game was supposed to be about choosing what you wanted to play how you wanted to play what they have done is limit us to a build with 20 points in crafting to get legendary iconic, and now your legendary gear is random but only rolls once. At this point, I don't know if I even want to do another playthrough. It's a shame I was really enjoying the game.

It appears to be not random, Fixed legendary locations all have same fixed stats, same amount of slot/slots, and same mod inside the slot/s for everyone.

Post automatically merged: Jan 27, 2021

Just done an Aldecaldos ending run on my level 26, the Aldecaldo Jacket had four sockets when I got it, when I restarted from PoNR save point, the version in my backpack only had 2 sockets

You have to make the save just before you talk to Mitch and Panam and go in into the tank. I had to run the ending scene of driving into the border tunnel about 5 times, once the ending scroll finished, you can check the jacket in inventory until you get the 4 slots, it was randomised. Now after 1.1, I'm not sure

 

[AndreiCC]

Interestingly, for weapons, lack of mod slots is not as bad as for armor, since the weapon equivalent for Unknown_4C882AC5:19 seems to give some (about 4-6 from what I can tell) damage, and since Crush has not a large numerical boost (range 4-8 vs up to 240ish for Armadillo) a good weapon with fewer than max slots is still perfectly usable since you'd put a few Crushes in anyway.

 

[Dagobert666]

OK, according to the text they have fixed the situation. However, the wording in the last sentence says that they really wanted to fix save scumming, without understanding that the are ruining half the games Loot by doing it ... by the way, I will immediately test whether NPC have always given loot to XYZ.


@CDPR. If you want to fix it, you have to completely revise the ENTIRE LOOT system. Not a half-baked crap that breaks more than it repairs. Thanks. Please proceed correctly and carefully and not quickly and catastrophically. And remember that you can get many Legendary Weapons only once in the game. E.g. the Legendary Arasaka JKE-X2 Kenshin can only be obtained from a loot box at one point in the game. If you fix loot then you have to consider that!
>>>The players need a way to get the clothes and weapons they want to play! Either via "Grinding" or via Shops and Cranfting.<<<




Hotfix 1.11 is available on PC, consoles and Stadia!

This update addresses two issues that appeared after Patch 1.1:

• Item randomization has been restored to the previous state.

The save/load loot exploit will be investigated further.

 

[thE_29]

OK, according to the text they have fixed the situation. However, the wording in the last sentence says that they really wanted to fix save scumming, without understanding that the are ruining half the games Loot by doing it ... by the way, I will immediately test whether NCS have always given loot to XYZ.


@CDPR. If you want to fix it, you have to completely revise the ENTIRE LOOT system. Not a half-baked crap that breaks more than it repairs. Thanks. Please proceed correctly and carefully and not quickly and catastrophically. And remember that you can get many Legendary Weapons only once in the game. E.g. the Legendary Arasaka JKE-X2 Kenshin can only be obtained from a loot box at one point in the game. If you fix loot then you have to consider that!
>>>The players need a way to get the clothes and weapons they want to play! Either via "Grainding" or via Shops and Cranfting.<<<




Hotfix 1.11 is available on PC, consoles and Stadia!

This update addresses two issues that appeared after Patch 1.1:

• Item randomization has been restored to the previous state.

The save/load loot exploit will be investigated further.

What is the save/load exploit now? Save-scumming?

 

[Draedark]

Came

What is the save/load exploit now? Save-scumming?

Came here to say the same. Save scumming is perhaps an exploit and was perhaps a factor in the bloated save files/crashing/loading issues folks were having previously? Interesting...

Cheers Chooms.

 

[Dagobert666]

What is the save/load exploit now? Save-scumming?

That seems to be the business term for it.


On the subject of NPC and LOOT:
So, the way it Looks:
The Type( What weapon or item of clothing) of LOOT is random according to XYZ.
BUT the Quality (Rare, Epic Legendary, etc.) and the Slots (the content) are randomly based on a different seed method. Probably Time (ingame or system)

 

[Hayte]

Yes. Any game that randomizes loot is going to face a design challenge if players can roll back the game (and therefore all the random number generator outputs) to a previous state by saving/reloading.

In Divinity: Original Sin 2, the only reason players know that certain item attributes are randomized by different container opening permutations, is because you can use save/load to roll back to an earlier game state, repeat a specific container opening sequence and get the same loot type and rarity.

In multiplayer games with random loot and no save/load game state, its harder to expose simple loot randomization mechanics. These tend to be instanced anyway, so you never encounter a situation like in Cyberpunk with themed legendaries where you have exactly 1 chance to loot an item and then its gone forever, unless you start a new character. In multiplayer games you can usually just re-instance and farm the same containers again, hoping to get the same loot (but with better stats).

Loot randomization is fine and can work in single player games to create excitement whenever you open a container or kill a bad guy. For this to work, 2 things need to be true:

1) you must be able to try again if you fail to get the item and the stats you want, if not from the same container then from another container somewhere in the game world.

If you hand place unique, one of a kind loot, it is not appropriate to randomize its attributes. This is tricky with themed legendaries because players can exploit static loot by beelining to all the known locations where themed legendaries are placed and get a full set of max sockets at level 2. Iconics are different because many of them are gated behind quest progression. You can't get Junchu Maru without defeating Oda, which happens very late into the game.

2) the method used to randomize items must be sufficiently complex that players can't easily expose mechanics simply by saving/loading game state and comparing before and after.

We saw how seeding loot by xyz coordinates can work just fine, as long as the enemies in your game are constantly moving. It becomes a problem when the enemies in your game stand still a lot because then your loot generation mechanics become predictable. Dagobert made a good point earlier in the thread that perhaps it would be better to go xyz + realtime = seed state for enemy corpse loot. This way you can kill an enemy in exactly the same place and save scum, but because real time passes in the interval between killing and reloading, you can't generate repeat items.

But then you need to have a similar degree of complexity for seeding static container loot.

 

[TheFonger]

For non-iconic clothing, I disagree, otherwise crafting clothing would be a bit pointless.
Add to the list that there is not enough crafting schematics for clothing and there should be a way to upgrade the quality of clothes (needs it's own menu though, otherwise the crafting menu would be way too big).
Iconic clothing is different though, those should always drop with the maximum number of slots.

There's two ways to go about this. They either need to make schematics for every piece of clothing in the game, and fix the crafting buttons so they operate instantly. Or they can make the upgrade menu in the crafting tree upgrade items beyond their level, we need to be able to upgrade items to higher rarities and have the slots on that item increase accordingly. There's no reason to have randomized slots on clothing. Implementing the latter of the two possible changes would make upgrading items worthwhile and enable people to customize their character's clothes the way they want without loading the crafting menu full of clothing schematics.

 

[Draedark]

Yes. Any game that randomizes loot is going to face a design challenge if players can roll back the game (and therefore all the random number generator outputs) to a previous state by saving/reloading.

In Divinity: Original Sin 2, the only reason players know that certain item attributes are randomized by different container opening permutations, is because you can use save/load to roll back to an earlier game state, repeat a specific container opening sequence and get the same loot type and rarity.

In multiplayer games with random loot and no save/load game state, its harder to expose simple loot randomization mechanics. These tend to be instanced anyway, so you never encounter a situation like in Cyberpunk with themed legendaries where you have exactly 1 chance to loot an item and then its gone forever, unless you start a new character. In multiplayer games you can usually just re-instance and farm the same containers again, hoping to get the same loot (but with better stats).

Loot randomization is fine and can work in single player games to create excitement whenever you open a container or kill a bad guy. For this to work, 2 things need to be true:

1) you must be able to try again if you fail to get the item and the stats you want, if not from the same container then from another container somewhere in the game world.

If you hand place unique, one of a kind loot. It is not appropriate to randomize its attributes. This is tricky with themed legendaries because players can exploit static loot by beelining to all the known locations where themed legendaries are placed and get a full set of max sockets at level 2. Iconics are different because many of them are gated behind quest progression. You can't get Junchu Maru without defeating Oda, which happens very late into the game.

2) the method used to randomize items must be sufficiently complex that players can't easily expose mechanics simply by saving/loading game state and comparing before and after.

We saw how seeding loot by xyz coordinates can work just fine, as long as the enemies in your game are constantly moving. It becomes a problem when the enemies in your game stand still a lot because then your loot generation mechanics become predictable. Dagobert made a good point earlier in the thread that perhaps it would be better to go xyz + realtime = seed state. This way you can kill an enemy in exactly the same place and save scum, but because real time passes in the interval between killing and reloading, you can't generate repeat items.

1. What is the point in randomness at all if you can try again until you get what you want? Also, wasn't the last patch (pre 1.10) effectively providing "hand placed unique loot"?

2. Cancelled out by #1.

 

[Dagobert666]

1. What is the point in randomness at all if you can try again until you get what you want? Also, wasn't the last patch (pre 1.10) effectively providing "hand placed unique loot"?

2. Cancelled out by #1.

Your argument sounds good and logical.
Unfortunately only if you haven't read anything that has been discussed on the last 6-7 pages.
The gamplay mechanics of CP2077 cancel your argument.
I don't feel like explaining this to you, be so nice and read it for yourself.

 

[Hayte]

1. What is the point in randomness at all if you can try again until you get what you want? Also, wasn't the last patch (pre 1.10) effectively providing "hand placed unique loot"?

2. Cancelled out by #1.

Because the point of randomization in games is to create uncertainty, not remove agency. Players behave differently when the outcome of an event is not certain and you experience a broader spectrum of emotional responses. This is all good.

You can have too much randomness and too little randomness. Too little means the outcomes are very certain. I can already tell you what its like to have static loot in Cyberpunk and its shit. I can predict exactly what you are going to get, before you get it. You just tell me what your character level is and what building you want to loot and I can tell you every thing you are going to pick up, what container is going to drop them and how many of them you will get. I will be able to tell you what the armour on all the pieces will be, what mods they will have. Everything. Playing a game like that is just going through the motions without any feeling. No excitement. No disappointment even. Its just predictable.

Too much randomness and you also diminish player agency. The game becomes like a lottery. Nothing you really do can affect the outcome so are no longer really playing the game anymore. The game just happens to you. Drop rates in Diablo 2 for high runewords prior to 1.12 were so low, they were lottery odds. Don't even bother manual farming them. This is the reason why everyone I knew botted in Diablo 2. I had 3x DTNT Hammerdins myself and 2x on Anya because to hell with the 250,000:1 odds of shopping a 2/3 lightning sentry claw and then the 50% chance Larzuk will completely fuck you by giving it 1 socket instead of 2.

Hand placed loot doesn't mean all of it should be hand placed. Most of it should be randomized to some degree but every once in a while you fight a tough bad guy or kill a boss and you loot a hand placed item. Like Carsomyr in Baldur's Gate 2. Getting a +5 sword after killing a red dragon felt really good.

 

[Witcherlake]

whelp, patch 1.11 says it fixed it. Can't redo my 72 hour gameplay with the collected legendary items with no sockets at all can I? and some I already disassembled. haha. good luck to me on my next playthrough.

Maybe allow common items to be upgradable through the ranks up to legendary items? so we don't look like hobos at level 50? Just a thought.

 

[Hayte]

whelp, patch 1.11 says it fixed it. Can't redo my 72 hour gameplay with the collected legendary items with no sockets at all can I? and some I already disassembled. haha. good luck to me on my next playthrough.

Maybe allow common items to be upgradable through the ranks up to legendary items? so we don't look like hobos at level 50? Just a thought.

If you are on PC you can use a save editor to open the sockets back up if you have already picked up a themed legendary during patch 1.1.

The way it works is they always have max sockets. If you picked up a legendary themed torso with 1 socket, it really has 4 sockets but 3 of them have a mod called "Me-Thrill". This mod disables the socket. It is likely some quick n' dirty method of faking socket randomization and is not intended to be found or acquired by the player.

With a save editor you can replace "Me-Thrill" with any throwaway mod (like a white armadillo). This will re-enable the socket and you can then replace the junk mod with whatever you have in your inventory.

 

[wittynewt]

OK, according to the text they have fixed the situation. However, the wording in the last sentence says that they really wanted to fix save scumming, without understanding that the are ruining half the games Loot by doing it ... by the way, I will immediately test whether NPC have always given loot to XYZ.


@CDPR. If you want to fix it, you have to completely revise the ENTIRE LOOT system. Not a half-baked crap that breaks more than it repairs. Thanks. Please proceed correctly and carefully and not quickly and catastrophically. And remember that you can get many Legendary Weapons only once in the game. E.g. the Legendary Arasaka JKE-X2 Kenshin can only be obtained from a loot box at one point in the game. If you fix loot then you have to consider that!
>>>The players need a way to get the clothes and weapons they want to play! Either via "Grinding" or via Shops and Cranfting.<<<




Hotfix 1.11 is available on PC, consoles and Stadia!

This update addresses two issues that appeared after Patch 1.1:

• Item randomization has been restored to the previous state.

The save/load loot exploit will be investigated further.

Thanks for the update. I totally agree with your comments in red.

I do not even understand why CDPR decided to go after save/reloading for rerolling loot anyway if that is what they mean by a save/reload exploit. There are enough basic bugs and poor implementations in the game including in loot itemisation and crafting that they should be addressing without them focussing on a save/reload reroll loot feature in a single player game. Its like they want to squeeze even further enjoyment out of their playerbase who are trying to enjoy the game despite all the bugs.