Dullest definition ever. If in boundries of one class we can have 47 and John Matrix I don't really see the point.
Help me (understand)
Dullest definition ever. If in boundries of one class we can have 47 and John Matrix I don't really see the point.
Help me (understand)
The point? What do you mean? As in what separates the Solo-types from each other in a mechanical sense? Their skill selections, cybernetics and attitude.
Part of the problem is you are thinking class and not Role. Cyberpunk doesn't uses classes - it's much more open than that. Solo is the only pure killer role in the (base) game and so anyone that kills or destroys for a living tends to fall under that Role. Within that Role, though, you have as many variations as you do in real life.
47 and Matrix both perform a Role - that of the killer.
They are this more than any other Role, but because 2020 lets you pick and choose your skills, you could have a Solo that focussed on Human Perception, Stealth, Shadowing, Disguise, Pistols and Personal Grooming as well as a Solo who had -none- of those skills but instead focussed on Heavy Weapons, Martial Arts, Drive, Rifle, Wilderness Survival, Expert: Improvised Munitions, etc.
The error, and it's going to come up a lot, is that Roles are not character classes. They aren't. They are loose categories in which people are defined by their primary job and that, in turn, gives them an advantage over other people who may have the same skills, but do not use them the same way as a professional would.
A Cop, for example, might have the same skills as 47, from the list I posted. Stealth, Disguise, etc. Even some or many at higher levels than 47. The difference is that the Cop uses them in conjunction with his Authority Special Ability to search, seize, arrest and interrogate people. The Solo uses those skills in conjunction with Combat Sense to kill, maim, wreak havoc and destroy better than the Cop can.
So Roles help define your character, but they are only a start point. The rest is stats, skills, gear and attitude/style.
This is also why Wisdom, myself and quite a lot of other people want the Roles even -more- open, so that Agent 47 could have a Solo's Combat Sense as well as, say, a Medtech's ability to patch up wounded or, ( future 47 for example) a Netrunner's ability to hack.
The idea isn't to create distinct character classes, it's to create distinct characters.
This.
That was what I had in mind.
Would be cool if CDPR could give us some news about this, I don't want gameplay necessary, just knowing what to expect about how they will handle the game.
It seems to wide for me, to roomy, to even call it a role. "The killer for hire", accommodates just too many archetypes (for me). Just get rid of roles completly and let me choose my selection of cybernetics and skills, and make my ninja hacker or rockerboy who sells drugs and weapons on black market, or a newsman, who know a guy, who know a guy, or a cop who came from wastelands and is using his family, to help him get rid of some gangs, a rich bored biznesman, who likes to go on streets and kill some homeless as a hobby, or...
Well, getting rid of Roles is not such a bad idea, but there are strong differences between your serial-killing businessman and Agent 47, more than just high points in Disguise. 47 has had years of training and practice, pretty much to the exclusion of anything else. He is a professional and like all professionals, he's better than any amateur of a similar skill level.
That professionalism is the Special Ability Combat Sense. The killer-for-hire role is more exclusive than inclusive. Your examples might be people-who-kill, but they aren't people-who-kill-for-a-living, which is what a Solo does.
Same as for a Rockerboy. Anyone can write and perform, but a Rockerboy has such power of performance, thanks to practice, practice, practice and natural talent, that they have the Special ability Charismatic Leadership. A Solo who plays guitar sometimes might be a very good musician, but he is not a professional.
A Rockerboy can be a singer, a comedian, a writer, and actor, you name it. Anyone who performs with passion and skill and does it well enough to convince others to follow him
It might please you to know, however, that other books than the core book do address some of this, with Solos that have Special Abilities that focus on Stealth, or piloting Power Armour or what-have-you.
That professionalism is the Special Ability Combat Sense. The killer-for-hire role is more exclusive than inclusive. Your examples might be people-who-kill, but they aren't people-who-kill-for-a-living, which is what a Solo does.
Same as for a Rockerboy. Anyone can write and perform, but a Rockerboy has such power of performance, thanks to practice, practice, practice and natural talent, that they have the Special ability Charismatic Leadership. A Solo who plays guitar sometimes might be a very good musician, but he is not a professional.
A Rockerboy can be a singer, a comedian, a writer, and actor, you name it. Anyone who performs with passion and skill and does it well enough to convince others to follow him
It might please you to know, however, that other books than the core book do address some of this, with Solos that have Special Abilities that focus on Stealth, or piloting Power Armour or what-have-you.
The more I think about ti, the more I think roles are stupid.
What do you make of Audy Murphy for example?
What do you make of Audy Murphy for example?
They are, in many ways. They are. People are hard to pigeonhole. BUT. In R. Tal's defense, we'd all been raised on DnD. Classes were how you did things. Also dice. Roles were already pretty brave, in a world where you pick a race and class and stick to it. \
Also, people really do one thing really well, mostly. Doctors doctor. Fighters, Fight. Cooks, cook. You do other things, but you mostly do one thing well. Where CP2020 departs strongly from reality is that you can't transition, at all.
Soldiers become cops. Computer geeks join the army. And for a period, you learn something new.
So, allow multiple Roles. One primary, one secondary at up to 1/2 the main and one tertiary at up to 1/4 the main. Or just a main and two secondaries. Whatever.
Makes balance easier too.
Hoho! That is a great idea you have here!
I too find Roles quite restrictive. Less than DnD classes for example, but then, you could multiclass, which you can't do in CP2020, I think...
That's why I like Ocelot's character system http://cyberpunk.asia/creation2.php?lng=us (originally on datafortress, but, the website hasn't been working for a while now...), no roles, you can really create a character how you see it, eventhough you loose your special skill
But I find your idea of that kind of degressive special skill if you "multirole" really cool
Balancing Roles does not concern me as much as them ample opportunities in game play. How will a Rockerboy be played vs a Media? How will a Corp be played rather than a Fixer? 2020 has 10 classes (well, 9 if you mix the Techie and the Ripper doc together) and each will have to have different game mechanics to be relevant.
From Cops responding to crimes in progress, to Techies/Medics working the meat wagon, to Nomads smuggling stuff from point to point, to Rockerboys setting up block parties which turn into riots, to Fixers trying to grease the next deal, to the Netrunners who run the digital city, to the Media who reports on it all, and to the Corp who is pulling all the strings.
Even if "hard classes" give way to skill based "classes", the issue is still there and thus needs a game play element. After all, Who wants to play a Rockerboy if there are no crowds to entertain?
From Cops responding to crimes in progress, to Techies/Medics working the meat wagon, to Nomads smuggling stuff from point to point, to Rockerboys setting up block parties which turn into riots, to Fixers trying to grease the next deal, to the Netrunners who run the digital city, to the Media who reports on it all, and to the Corp who is pulling all the strings.
Even if "hard classes" give way to skill based "classes", the issue is still there and thus needs a game play element. After all, Who wants to play a Rockerboy if there are no crowds to entertain?
yah, DX 1 did it really well.
ARMA do it very well as well.
I truly think you have to approach it more from the paradigm of " players in a living world" or "cyberpunk simulation' rather then the traditional western RPG.
ARMA do it very well as well.
I truly think you have to approach it more from the paradigm of " players in a living world" or "cyberpunk simulation' rather then the traditional western RPG.
Last edited: