Single Open World or Partitioned?

[Geralt_of_bsas]

Definitely separated medium to large zones, with some special small maps for some occasions.

Performance wise there is no problem with one insanely big map, that can be done. The reason I don't prefer that instead is:

1 - They are completely limited in what parts of the planet they can offer to us in the game, since its all got to be connected seamlessly or at least to have real playable space in between, and I myself want to see more than just one country, or one city.

2 - It would require a ton of extra development work to take into account how each zone/environment interacts with their neighbors, you need to start thinking what happens at the borders of each area and producing realistic results for their co-existence and the experience of transitioning from one to the other. It's a big waste of time compared to other far more important priorities.

With separated zones its cheaper, more focused, simpler to develop and design, and it allows a lot more creative freedom, specifically to be able to show the world of the future from different perspectives.

 

[sv3672]

As far as 2020 goes, not everyone uses Aerodynes, but whos to say 2077 will be the same. If information from Ciri holds any weight, Everyone does.

It does not necessarily mean that literally everyone has a flying car, it could rather be that for everyone who has a vehicle, it is a flying car instead of a horse ("And there were no horses, everyone had their own flying ship instead." - this is what she says exactly). Perhaps the player's character would not actually own a vehicle, especially if it is very expensive, it may be provided temporarily as a part of the story, and in the case of a multi-region world, possibly also limited to only some of the regions. But a simple non-flying car may also be owned permanently as a kind of Roach replacement.

1.) They work like Beth games, with extremely detailed environments, choc-full of NPCs (4 enemies / quest-givers per square meter). The game starts to feel like it takes place in a "theme park", not a vast, expansive, natural world. Everything is a football field away from everything else, and once you see the use of forced perspective for what it is, it's hard to un-see it. In Skyrim, the entire "Hold of Whiterun" is roughly the size of 6 city blocks. Seriously, it takes ~15 minutes to walk from one end of it to the other. And the Throat of the World Mountain is only about 20 stories up. That's a medium-sized office building, not Mount Frickin' Everest. This system definitely works, no arguments there, but it leaves the world feeling very contrived and convenient.

The maps are actually also "compressed" in TW3, it is a common practice in open world games, just like it is to make a game day only an hour or two of real time. Although it is done to an extreme extent in Skyrim, a few minutes of running can even result in climate change. Should CP2077 be implemented as a single open world (if there are no distant locations), I think the map would be both compressed and rely on the Rockstar/Ubi approach, but in actual gameplay the city could still end up being more impressive than in other titles so far.

I would remove the GTA rampage effect (of starting to mow down pedestrians out of boredom because that's all they're good for in GTA, and possibly in CP2077 too) which would remove an infantile element from the game

Running over pedestrians could also be a crime, which would encourage use of the vehicle mainly in the areas with lower density of content. Or, like Roach in TW3, it could simply be forced to a low speed and NPCs would move out of the way with some complaints, rather than getting killed.

 

[Snowflakez]

Running over pedestrians could also be a crime, which would encourage use of the vehicle mainly in the areas with lower density of content. Or, like Roach in TW3, it could simply be forced to a low speed and NPCs would move out of the way with some complaints, rather than getting killed.

Yes, this. I see no need to outright remove the ability to drive/fly/whatever anywhere in the world, there are so many other ways around it. A tremendous bounty on your head for killing innocent civilians (Especially if $ is harder to come by in this world) would be a pretty nice deterrent from doing it, not to mention the constant police attention you'd get. Or, as you said, just have a forced slow speed or forced altitude (for flying vehicles) and have people just move out of the way automatically.

 

[Snowflakez]

What I suggested wouldn't limit that, all of the games areas and features would be usable by the player from the get go as far I'd be concerned. Provided the player character knows how to do that stuff.

Fair enough.

I guess, ultimately, it really does come down to personal preferences here. For instance, a highway system is a negligible change for you, whereas for me, the thought of not having full control (a la the Witcher 3 and Skyrim) over where I drive in an open world RPG is unthinkable. Let's even put GTA aside, because I don't care much about the rampage aspect. I just like the roleplay potential, and the immersion factor. For me, being stuck on a highway would be immersion breaking, whereas driving right up to the building I'm supposed to enter (or nearby, if I need to sneak in) is super immersive and engaging. I feel like I'm in the world, just like everyone else, running into the same street gang jerks and other annoyances that everyone else does.

My comparisons to other games were just to show that issues like the "rampage" thing can be dealt with easily without measures like a highway system being implemented, I didn't mean to say that CP2077 should emulate everything they do, or that their method of doing it is the best - rather, just that it isn't a problem, so why fix it? Some people like their rampages, and there's no need to limit that, especially not if they get royally f***** for doing so.

But this is just my opinion, and yours makes sense too. I especially agree that CDPR shouldn't be afraid to try completely new things - who knows, maybe some of the wacky stuff they will inevitably come up with will become the new norm in the industry (at which point every other company will claim it's their "revolutionary, innovative" idea).

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

I'm also not really sure what "seriousness" has to do with this. But then... with what I suggest (separating it as it's own feature), I would remove the GTA rampage effect (of starting to mow down pedestrians out of boredom because that's all they're good for in GTA, and possibly in CP2077 too) which would remove an infantile element from the game, and make driving (and flying) a more conscious and more comprehensive effort. Not a commonplace event nobody really cares about because it's all taken for granted and you do it all the time to even notice, but a more unique gameplay challenge (what all it might include is a story of it's own).

You know what would be cool? If there was no 5 stars limit police crime rate like GTA, and instead we got a police rate with something like 10 stars, where if you reached a 10 star crime rate the goddamn army would start hunting you down.

(it would be very tough to get 10 stars in order to not make the game too hard for casuals)

 

[SigilFey]

The maps are actually also "compressed" in TW3, it is a common practice in open world games, just like it is to make a game day only an hour or two of real time. Although it is done to an extreme extent in Skyrim, a few minutes of running can even result in climate change. Should CP2077 be implemented as a single open world (if there are no distant locations), I think the map would be both compressed and rely on the Rockstar/Ubi approach, but in actual gameplay the city could still end up being more impressive than in other titles so far.

True. Although TW3 had lots of open wilderness, which I loved. The reason I like the Bioware-ish approach is because it can create 1:1 scale areas. But still compress the gameplay enough that players would not need to travel for 45 actual minutes to get from one district to the next. However, something that looked like it was across town would literally be across town. (This is still a form of illusion, but one that I think would be extremely immersive and well within hardware capabilities.)

I feel that as long as the action of a particular area is seamless, the entire world need not be seamless.

Running over pedestrians could also be a crime...

A crime!? Let's not get carried away...

Some people like their rampages, and there's no need to limit that, especially not if they get royally f***** for doing so.

You know what would be cool? If there was no 5 stars limit police crime rate like GTA, and instead we got a police rate with something like 10 stars, where if you reached a 10 star crime rate the goddamn army would start hunting you down.

This will be a hard call. Let me be the first to admit: if you give me a flying car...I am eventually going to pilot it straight through a crowded mini-mall. And I do hope that the results of my venture create a satisfying result.

However, having the game react with a simple star system would immediately destroy the immersion for me. GTA works because it's over-the-top to such a ridiculous level that it's impossible to take it seriously. I imagine that CP will be decidedly more down to earth.

Perhaps a nice trade-off would be a "video game" within the Night City world. Sky Racer Rampage or something, that plays out like a GTA free-for-all. If I try that in the "real life" Night City, though, the results should probably be extremely scary.

 

[Guest 4149880]

All of this. Plus, I hope there's something in place to stop people from just "stealing" vehicles, or at least makes it very, very difficult...with severe in-game consequences if the player is caught. I don't think it would upset the balance of the game too much to introduce it about halfway through. (I'd want a flying car. [Ya, I want the Cheesy-Poofs.])

I'd assume flying cars will surely be a part of the world flying above, as well as cars and other vehicles driving on ground.

Vehicles will probably exist all over Night City, but it will be part of the economy system. The player should still have to earn their vehicle mid-late to end game so the player should experience the struggle of public transportation etc... and build up to that end game point without the luxury of a personal vehicle

Its not going to be a realistic aspect of even hijacking an Aerodyne as they're obviously in the air and anyone who can afford one wouldn't park it in a precarious or dangerous area to be stolen. As for ground vehicles, assuming they could be stolen, and you can bypass the security alarm and get away with driving it, authorities would be looking for it, and should be very difficult to actually pull off.

 

[Snowflakez]

Perhaps a nice trade-off would be a "video game" within the Night City world. Sky Racer Rampage or something, that plays out like a GTA free-for-all. If I try that in the "real life" Night City, though, the results should probably be extremely scary.

To each their own.

The point I was making is that placing artificial limitations on player movement (flying, driving, etc.) simply to prevent rampages and the like is actually an even worse breach of immersion, in my humble opinion. I'd rather have the choice to make a decision and not make it than not have the choice at all because the game told me I can only fly on highways.

That said, I don't much care if civilians are killable or not (though it'd be nice for immersion), I just want to be able to fly and drive anywhere at any time. The consequences of screwing up and hurting innocents can be as severe as the devs see fit, or it can not be possible at all. Whatever they prefer.

 

[Sardukhar]

As for ground vehicles, assuming they could be stolen, and you can bypass the security alarm and get away with driving it, authorities would be looking for it, and should be very difficult to actually pull off.

Weeeeelll....NCPD is pretty corrupt and inefficient. Whole areas of the City are no-go for them.

That plus a whole load of very practiced criminals and extant booster gangs means, well, a lot of crime.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

placing artificial limitations on player movement (flying, driving, etc.) simply to prevent rampages

That wasn’t my point.

It was an exmple of a side-effect omission of an inane aspect which surely would affect the ”seriousness” of game that you mentioned negatively.

You know what would be cool? If there was no 5 stars limit police crime rate like GTA, and instead we got a police rate with something like 10 stars, where if you reached a 10 star crime rate the goddamn army would start hunting you down.

(it would be very tough to get 10 stars in order to not make the game too hard for casuals)

What would be cool would be if there was no system like GTA at all, but a wholly different thing.

There were a couple of threads not too long ago about this with some neat ideas thrown around.

 

[Snowflakez]

That wasn’t my point.

Fair enough, sorry if I misunderstood. I just disagree that it's an inane aspect of the game. I like driving around freely. I like flying around freely. That's all I'm saying. If I'm not understanding your point properly and it still allows for that sort of thing, then great.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Fair enough, sorry if I misunderstood. I just disagree that it's an inane aspect of the game. I like driving around freely. I like flying around freely. That's all I'm saying. If I'm not understanding your point properly and it still allows for that sort of thing, then great.

No problem, and no need to apologize. We’re not fighting here.

I do think encouraging wanton giggle violence is always inane unless the game intends for that sort of darker slapstick (like GTA does).

But to clarify, I’m not calling for its intentional omission. I wouldn’t say no to you if you wanted to steal a car and start driving over pedestrians or if you chose to run amok with an assault rifle in the streets of Night City and see how long you’ll survive, if the game allowed for those. The mass-roadkill aspect is just something I would not lament not seeing should the driving feature prevent it.

 

[SigilFey]

[/QUOTE]

Vehicles will probably exist all over Night City, but it will be part of the economy system. The player should still have to elike arn their vehicle mid-late to end game so the player should experience the struggle of public transportation etc... and build up to that end game point without the luxury of a personal vehicle

Agreed that it should not happen earlier than ~50% of the way through. And it should probably be completely optional throughout. There could be "driving sections" or something to introduce it and whet players' appetites for vehicles of their own later on.

In the end, it's finding away to qualify the existence of controllable vehicles, have them add something meaningful (end exclusive) to the game, and execute in a way that feels like it truly belongs in the gameplay. (Not...tack it on like horses / horse armor in Oblivion...or those grating "vehicle chase" scenes in Call of Duty.)

The point I was making is that placing artificial limitations on player movement (flying, driving, etc.) simply to prevent rampages and the like is actually an even worse breach of immersion, in my humble opinion.

That wasn’t my point.
It was an exmple of a side-effect omission of an inane aspect which surely would affect the ”seriousness” of game that you mentioned negatively.

I agree that allowing "rampages" would be inane, but I do not think the solution should be "invisible walls" or anything. What I was thinking was: play the video game within the game, and the world would react like GTA. Citizens scream and panic and run away. You get "chased" by police that upgrades to military as your "wanted level" increases, ending with half the city on fire and you being shot out of the sky by a flying battleship or something. Just...ridiculous...and fun!

Try it in the actual gameworld, and you drive the Aerodyne into a crowd of people to be shocked by bloodcurdling screams and weeping from the victims. A real sense of the horror and pain you've just caused. You fire up the engine to get out of there, and jump out of your seat at a loud BANG! of some weapon hitting your craft. The Aerodyne goes down with a really uncomfortable squeal of metal hitting the pavement, and almost immediately, the door is ripped open and police pump stun rounds into you as you lose consciousness. You wake up in a starkly white room, and start undergoing a psych evaluation from some voice...which you fail...and are immediately executed...you watch a robotic arm insert the needle...

Reload screen.

I just want to be able to fly and drive anywhere at any time.

What would be cool would be if there was no system like GTA at all, but a wholly different thing. There were a couple of threads not too long ago about this with some neat ideas thrown around.

I also agree with being able to go anywhere at any time. Even, at the highest levels, being able to fight through the situation I describe above. As long as the game continues to take its own world with the seriousness it establishes at the beginning. (Or not -- for all we know, the final game may be more like Just Cause than TW3. But I doubt it.)

Weeeeelll....NCPD is pretty corrupt and inefficient. Whole areas of the City are no-go for them.
That plus a whole load of very practiced criminals and extant booster gangs means, well, a lot of crime.

I hope that "crime-ridden" sections have a lot of variety among themselves. I remember going to Brooklyn and Little Italy in the early '90s (when it was still very much mafia controlled) and while they may not have been the newest or nicest sections of the city, they were definitely the quietest and the safest. I don't support it, but when "crime" becomes organized enough, it can become a pretty effective government.

I'd like to see "completely out-of-control, crime zones" that truly make me start to question whether they're not the only sane ones in the mix. (You know...Equilibrium style. )

Its not going to be a realistic aspect of even hijacking an Aerodyne as they're obviously in the air and anyone who can afford one wouldn't park it in a precarious or dangerous area to be stolen. As for ground vehicles, assuming they could be stolen, and you can bypass the security alarm and get away with driving it, authorities would be looking for it, and should be very difficult to actually pull off.

I'd love that to be a multi-step process. Needing to track the mark, learn his/her patterns, hack into the net, edit their credentials so that you own the vehicle, then have to smoothly time the "grab" and get away.

 

[Guest 4149880]

Agreed that it should not happen earlier than ~50% of the way through. And it should probably be completely optional throughout. There could be "driving sections" or something to introduce it and whet players' appetites for vehicles of their own later on.
In the end, it's finding away to qualify the existence of controllable vehicles, have them add something meaningful (end exclusive) to the game, and execute in a way that feels like it truly belongs in the gameplay. (Not...tack it on like horses / horse armor in Oblivion...or those grating "vehicle chase" scenes in Call of Duty.)

I think a lot of what's seen as far as flying vehicles could be merely atmosphere. Not all vehicles have be drivable or intractable but still exist, to give the world life. And could be acquired late- end game just for the sake of letting the player explore the open world with more freedom after having earned a place in the world, it would be an awesome feature to fly above after the long journey.

 

[Suhiira]

I think a lot of what's seen as far as flying vehicles could be merely atmosphere. Not all vehicles have be drivable or intractable but still exist, to give the world life. And could be acquired late- end game just for the sake of letting the player explore the open world with more freedom after having earned a place in the world, it would be an awesome feature to fly above after the long journey.

Here I'll agree.
While aerodynes certainly exist in CP2020 they're not (for the vast majority of people) the common mode of transportation. Making them something you see, and perhaps ride in as a passenger until late game when you have the opportunity to get your hands on one of your own would be fine.

The problem with making such things available early in a game is that of game design. If your player has access to flight it makes game/level design much MUCH harder as the options you have to plan for increase literally exponentially.

 

[Snowflakez]

One thing I want to point out here is that making vehicles widely available to the general public -- yes, even fancy high end vehicles -- is not that uncommon of a practice. As a car company grows over time, and manufacturing technology improves, they can reduce prices and make new versions of their vehicles that are available to a wider base of consumers.

Look at Tesla's Model 3, for example. Put aside the supply problems they're having and look at the price: 35k as a base. Not dirt cheap (certainly not something I'm getting anytime soon) but also not exorbitantly priced, yet it still has the fancy self driving tech and all that other jazz that you'd expect from a Tesla vehicle.

I'm not saying flying cars/aerodynes will ever be "mass market", but I think people are drastically underestimating how long it takes for companies to reach economies of scale. Remember - this is 2077, 57 years after the events of the tabletop RPG. If aerodynes were already not "rare" (but not mass market either) in 2020, why wouldn't they become more common among at least the middle or upper middle class by 2077? Do companies just stop trying to innovate and make more money? Probably not.

I'm not making an argument for or against seeing more aerodynes, or having them be super easy for the player to access, I'm just trying to provide a bit of context to the discussion. A lot can happen in 57 years.

 

[Guest 4149880]

I'm not saying flying cars/aerodynes will ever be "mass market", but I think people are drastically underestimating how long it takes for companies to reach economies of scale. Remember - this is 2077, 57 years after the events of the tabletop RPG. If aerodynes were already not "rare" (but not mass market either) in 2020, why wouldn't they become more common among at least the middle or upper middle class by 2077? Do companies just stop trying to innovate and make more money? Probably not.

I'm not making an argument for or against seeing more aerodynes, or having them be super easy for the player to access, I'm just trying to provide a bit of context to the discussion. A lot can happen in 57 years.

It then comes full circle back to what's "realistic" and what's sticking close to the underlying theme of the game. I agree that what you say would make sense in a mass market economy, even with all that's wrong, still manages to advance technology. With greater quantity, lower prices and mass produced tech is designed to be cheap to manufacture.

 

[Suhiira]

If aerodynes were already not "rare" (but not mass market either) in 2020, why wouldn't they become more common among at least the middle or upper middle class by 2077? Do companies just stop trying to innovate and make more money? Probably not.

The problem is your argument (as in logical argument not antagonistic) requires a strong and numerous Middle Class, something CP2020 has gone out of it's way to indicate is not the case in their world.

So, yes, aerodynes are uncommon in 2020 ... and probably still so in 2077.

 

[Snowflakez]

The problem is your argument (as is logical argument not antagonistic) requires a strong and numerous Middle Class, something CP2020 has gone out of it's way to indicate is not the case in their world.

So, yes, aerodynes are uncommon in 2020 ... and probably still so in 2077.

I was unaware of this. I haven't played CP2020 (yet). I still think 57 years of technological progress could bring with it some degree of wider adoption, but if there's no middle class... Thanks for clarifying.

 

[SigilFey]

I think a lot of what's seen as far as flying vehicles could be merely atmosphere. Not all vehicles have be drivable or intractable but still exist, to give the world life. And could be acquired late- end game just for the sake of letting the player explore the open world with more freedom after having earned a place in the world, it would be an awesome feature to fly above after the long journey.

It may wind up that Aerodynes, as awesome and iconic as they are with the whole cyberpunk concept, may simply not find a playable place in the game. Killing such darlings is always a necessary hardship for the game to maintain a sense of itself and become awesomeness incarnate.

Here I'll agree. While aerodynes certainly exist in CP2020 they're not (for the vast majority of people) the common mode of transportation. Making them something you see, and perhaps ride in as a passenger until late game when you have the opportunity to get your hands on one of your own would be fine.
The problem with making such things available early in a game is that of game design. If your player has access to flight it makes game/level design much MUCH harder as the options you have to plan for increase literally exponentially.

Well said! And absolutely. Putting them in as an available, controllable, transportation method means that at least some part of the world needs to meaningfully facilitate and reward zipping around in an Aerodyne.

I would say that being given this freedom only for a few, one-off missions as part of the main story line would be a mistake. It would leave players craving more, perhaps...but then the game would never deliver. Similar to introducing a cool new power or ability, then only allowing players access to it during scripted, quicktime events. Alternatively, simply implementing them "just 'cus", then providing a giant, empty world to fly around in...or even worse...random "assaults, "races", and "treasure hunts"......would rob it of any energy and point.

If implemented, there needs to be regular, plot-based reasons, motivated by the dramatic action of the story and events in the world, for a player to choose to get in an Aerodyne and take to the sky rather than simply leg it.