[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Ayinde_Palmer]

To be honest, V having to die no matter what you do is a plot hole, in my opinion.

The nanites from the biochip altered V's cells to accommodate Johnny, but if a biochip is capable of doing that, couldn't there be a counter-biochip that can reverse-engineer that process? For all her huge AI knowledge, Alt had somehow failed to consider this option. She is able to create programs on her own, and with her capacity to access pretty much anything digital - including Mikoshi database, she could have also created a program that could be placed on a new biochip, for the sole purpose to bring V's body back to its original state. The base of the biochip is the engram on it, and since Alt had full access to V's engram, this was very doable. If V was indeed too far gone, they wouldn't have any time left, instead of approx six months - which means it's not too late.
This suggestion opens possibilities for Johnny as well. Technically, he doesn't have to go with Alt, but instead remain as an engram on a newly created biochip and wait for a suitable body.
Alt was the best netrunner ever, and now a free AI with unlimited access to all sorts of data. It seems to me that she had used Johnny and V to get to Mikoshi, and that she doesn't really care for their predicament. If she did, she would have considered the "body factor" earlier and devised a workaround for them both. I think the axis of all endings here is actually Alt's crappy attitude. The only being that could really help doesn't give a flying F.

So, OK, Alt can remain a horrible entity all around - for the sake of the point that people are selfish pricks even if they turn into AIs, but we should still have the option to find a solution without her. At this point, I wouldn't even be mad if CDPR decided to make a DLC with a fulfilling, meaningful ending. Seriously, why would I even want to play a game if the outcome is doom no matter what I do? This "experiment" that I paid for and invested my time in has only left me feel bitter. I played the game with every possible build and ending, hoping I'd find something that would make me feel good and entertained...but I only ended up with this hollow sensation. They can fix bugs all they want, but what we really need fixed is the story.

the biochip isn't established tech, its cutting edge tech which is in the testing phase.

Alt is actually not an infinite intellegience, neither is any other AI. She specifically has a lot of experience with net running, she has experience with neural digitization (she invented it) She is a genius, and can deal with a lot of data. She is not presented as being a master of all human knowledge. She is not a biologist, she has shown no talent equivalent to what biotechnica is capabable of. She also didnt create relic 2.0, or think of overwriting brains, or altering biology.

Also, alt is not likely to make the purpose of her afterlife saving V. She mostly only helped you because of Johnny (she tells you this in panam ending) and because she wants to destroy mikoshi. V would have to convince her somehow, spending the next 5 months learning cutting edge biology is worth her time.

and one of the problems is that Vs body has developed an immune response(partially due to superengineered antibodies of the future) to the relic 2.0 nanite neurology. So while its supposed to be able to change the host cells, it no longer can do its job as well as it used to. Note that immune response is environmental, not directly genetic. Basically the nanites or their work are a virus/tumor and the body knows how to destroy it now. Just because you can alter DNA in one specific way, doesn't mean your at the level where you know how to write DNA to do whatever you want to a body. They were working on relic type technology for like 50-60 years to get where they are at. We have seen nothing to suggest Arasaka has mastered the power of programming life through DNA. Though biotechnicha might be closer.

And yes, its entirely possible that alt, or someone else could develop a cure within 6 months, but they don't have one now, and its possible they can't. Alt and Arasaka are just telling you where they are at now. Arasaka even admits that if you were saburo, its more likely they could force a solution, but since you are not, your best bet is to wait until they get around to finding you a body, or get better tech.

No one said there are no possible solutions, but there are none currently available, and no one you know sees a particular reason to create one.



As far as the story. I think it was designed to not be triumphant, there is definitely a hollow feeling there. But, I don't think its the end of the story, I'm not saying it will have a happy ending, but I think it might have a more complete one. Who knows. For me, I guess I accepted it more after some time, and secret Sun ending felt the best to me, no LI. V looked like they had a goal and a purpose, to try to survive even when the world said die. (or do something to make their life and death worthwhile). And I hope to see where that leads

 

[Didacgomez]

While the game has some non-linear sub-story, the main plot is pretty much linear, those choices you make in some quest don't alter any of that, you can't refuse the job, you can't save your friend, you can't refuse to put that chip in your head, the guy that contracted you always kill you after the failing quest......... should I keep going?

Here is where I think that there is a general misconception: in a RPG the player has few agency/control over the story, because the one who is living the story is the character not the player. I can only point to two well defined examples like King Quest VI and Ultima VII:Black Gate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King's_Quest_VI

Multiple endings​

A significant aspect of the story and gameplay is the option for the player to receive different endings based on choices made during the course of the game. Partway through the game, the player has the option to pursue either the short path, or the long path with more puzzles and a more satisfying ending. Upon completing either path, the player is given a clue about what choices would have led to the other ending. Endings contain many minor variables based on optional tasks.[2] Almost half of the game's quests are optional, many have multiple solutions, and the open world design allows players to choose the order.[8]

For Ultima VII:

Ultima VII: The Black Gate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In King Quest, since is an adventure and the character doesn´t have stats associated is the player decision that "branches" the story (still limited to what the game designer decided).
In Ultima VII there are only 3 outcomes: you die before finishing the story, you choose an ending that leads to continuity to Ultima VII Part II or you choose another ending that blocks your character from Ultima VII Part II (this is non-cannon ending).

The gameplay in Ultima consists on travelling through the story and solving the challenges based on the character stats, not much based on player free of decision.

I didn´t had the chance to try the early-Acces of Baldur's III, but I saw some complains about "failing" dialogues and people scum-saving/loading because they are linked to skills + dice rolling (surprise hard coding rules of D&D), its a way to try to keep the character/player agency splitted (but without a nice dungeon master willing to "flex" the rules when is needed).

For the Cyberpunk RPG, I doubt that is still on-print but if you have a chance you can check:

Tales from the Forlorn Hope

Tales from the Forlorn Hope, subtitled, Eight Adventures for Cyberpunk, is an adventurebook for Cyberpunk 2020, focusing on the fictitious bar, the Forlorn Hope, and its many patrons, who all have many interesting stories to tell. The adventures in this book are not connected and are meant to...

cyberpunk.fandom.com

Its an campaign where the start and end points are "linear", within a quest you have freedom to solve it any way you want using the skills of your character. You can also accept/refuse quests before the last one, but you need a certain "reputation" to be able to do the last quest.
End adventure (supposing you character has survived all the campaing) has only 3 outcomes: you refuse to do last quest, you capture a cyberpsycho alive, the cyberspsycho dies.

The endings are pretty much a "choose how V dies" but is certainly a railroad of V dying one way or another.

All those other choices are worthless, the same thing happened in Mass effect 3 (no matter how much you raised the forces you still have to sacrifice yourself, taking out the choices from the players. to force some BS that in the end no one did care)

And Btw if you go to Steam you will see the game doesn't have the "Choices Matters" tag for that same reason.
This was never the game they promised.

This is what I tried to explain above. Your choices matter regarding the world that the character lives (some NPCs die other not, Arasaka is stronger than ever or you inflict a massive economic loss, Judy is happy or close to suicide).

To be honest, V having to die no matter what you do is a plot hole, in my opinion.

My V is in a campfire with his/her friend and his/her partner, the 6 month = death is like saying that people shouldn´t do any cancer treatment because its worthless.

Alt can remain a horrible entity all around

In Shadowrun there is a saying "never make a deal with a dragon", AIs are the dragons in this world. They have their own agenda (like all other factions in the cyberpunk universe).

Seriously, why would I even want to play a game if the outcome is doom no matter what I do?

Just one word "Cyberpunk", the genre is full of examples of "bad" endings :Gibson killed Johnny Mnemonic in less than 10 lines in "Neuromancer" even if at the end of the short-story Johnny was happy,rich and with the girl, the end of "New Rose Hotel"...

. At this point, I wouldn't even be mad if CDPR decided to make a DLC with a fulfilling, meaningful ending.

Pure speculation on my side, but the 6 months window (with most of the relevant NPCs alive) is the door open for that expansion (we will find that Misty is the one behind the scenes manipulating the plot,or not).

They can fix bugs all they want, but what we really need fixed is the story.

As I tried to explain, and I know we disagree, I don´t see anything wrong with the story for a game in a cyberpunk universe but is a completely subjective thing, I hope we can agree.

 

[wright1978]

To be honest, V having to die no matter what you do is a plot hole, in my opinion.

...

So, OK, Alt can remain a horrible entity all around - for the sake of the point that people are selfish pricks even if they turn into AIs, but we should still have the option to find a solution without her. At this point, I wouldn't even be mad if CDPR decided to make a DLC with a fulfilling, meaningful ending. Seriously, why would I even want to play a game if the outcome is doom no matter what I do? This "experiment" that I paid for and invested my time in has only left me feel bitter. I played the game with every possible build and ending, hoping I'd find something that would make me feel good and entertained...but I only ended up with this hollow sensation. They can fix bugs all they want, but what we really need fixed is the story.

While i think V being put back on death row in endings is very poor writing and unsatisying i wouldn't go as far as saying its a plot hole.

My hope lies with moving forward past the atrocious way the endings were handled(the mechanics, character railroading, plot cancer were all garbagetc). Dragon age inquisition had a paid expansion with a new epilogue at the end, it didn't remove the original game ending but it clearly allowed them a second shot at it. Hope Cyberpunk manages to do something similar.

 

[Vincent_Black]

Only 11 more pages...let's gooooooooooo!!!

 

[djisma69]

@Ayinde_Palmer @Didacgomez guess my opinion and povs are very different from you guys and that is all right, we can disagree.
Dragon age origin for example is one of the clearest "choices matter" game I have played, because you can choose to die or how to live in many different ways, the game never forces an ending or fate on you unlike Cyberpunk with all that 6 months left, coma or cyberspace engram bullshit.

And just to make a point, if they forced in witcher 3 Geralt to die in all endings, most people would have riot because it will make irrelevant all the choices in the game through all 3 games... like what happened in mass effect 3.
A good or nice game can turn into a shit game if the ending doesn't deliver that same quality and enjoyment that most of the game did, to put it simply, the endings can ruin the whole game and for me in this case, they did ruin it.

 

[Didacgomez]

@Ayinde_Palmer @Didacgomez guess my opinion and povs are very different from you guys and that is all right, we can disagree.
Dragon age origin for example is one of the clearest "choices matter" game I have played, because you can choose to die or how to live in many different ways, the game never forces an ending or fate on you unlike Cyberpunk with all that 6 months left, coma or cyberspace engram bullshit.

And just to make a point, if they forced in witcher 3 Geralt to die in all endings, most people would have riot because it will make irrelevant all the choices in the game through all 3 games... like what happened in mass effect 3.
A good or nice game can turn into a shit game if the ending doesn't deliver that same quality and enjoyment that most of the game did, to put it simply, the endings can ruin the whole game and for me in this case, they did ruin it.

Of course, we can agree to disagree. I did just try to point that is all very subjective,context dependant and that what we got is not even strange in a RPG or in the cyberpunk genre.

 

[exxxed]

@Ayinde_Palmer @Didacgomez guess my opinion and povs are very different from you guys and that is all right, we can disagree.
Dragon age origin for example is one of the clearest "choices matter" game I have played, because you can choose to die or how to live in many different ways, the game never forces an ending or fate on you unlike Cyberpunk with all that 6 months left, coma or cyberspace engram bullshit.

And just to make a point, if they forced in witcher 3 Geralt to die in all endings, most people would have riot because it will make irrelevant all the choices in the game through all 3 games... like what happened in mass effect 3.
A good or nice game can turn into a shit game if the ending doesn't deliver that same quality and enjoyment that most of the game did, to put it simply, the endings can ruin the whole game and for me in this case, they did ruin it.

Based on the whole narrative arc involving V, Johnny and The Relic, the game does exactly the opposite of this, it gives V hope, six months or not.

As for ''forcing fate'' upon the main character, it's fine as long as the character isn't a blank slate, which is the case of both Cyberpunk and The Witcher series.

As for Dragon Age, as far as I know I'm being forced to become a Warden and fight the Darkspawn becoming the hero of Ferelden, fair enough it has some different epilogues which are basically the same scene with asset swaps, I much prefer the approach of Cyberpunk's epilogues as they offer much more content in retrospect and also helps mold V's character depending on the chosen life path and overall choices during the game.

 

[Bridges001]

from my point of view some endings are not "endings".
I take the best example of the epilogue "path of glory" ... it is not an end, it is a cliffhanger. there are too many questions.
how long has passed since mikoshi, what has happened for the V / Judy relationship to be so sad (in a female V run of course), who is MBE, what has he promised her in return etc. if this ending is just V who wants to die alone while helping people manipulating the human brain then it's the silliest ending in the game. V would have forgotten how far it has come in the game.
if this end does not follow, it is shame.
I think that the end "star" also deserves a continuation even if it is more closed, same for the end "devil" even if V was not separated from johnny (for me this end would be the most complicated to give a continuation)

 

[enkee23]

it gives V hope, six months or not

until player read pills epilogue text

secondary characters path is just nice additional narrative tool
thank devs for that but it's very minor reward
final mission should have different playstyles (rambo/stealth/conviction)
but for me decision with different paths is like stealing large part of content from a player

i still think that cyberspace is the only way to save villy
but it takes to ignore a lot of stuff which literally screams that it's the worst choice

comparing to dos2 endings which were claimed as "innapropriate" but looks they have different cores and weight

Spoiler

divinity is legendary status, void is deep-cyberspace/arasaka-mikoshi, eternals are ai/engrams, veil is blackwall/mikoshi, yori is lucian, god king is alt/saburo, rivellon is night city, mrbe is a doctor, dallis is hanako

become a new legend, arasaka is tko but fight continues, mb later with alt
return to gutter or sacrifice (?), yori and hani transfrom mikoshi so people think they are legends who created immortality for all
v and mrbe rule night city as legends, arasaka and alt flatlined but then starts a worse war between them
mrbe flatline v if v decides to flatline mrbe
night city unites to drive out arasaka but later night city start to burn because of civil and corporate war
return to gutter, hani directs mikoshi power to strengthen blackwall against alt, yori rules night city, mikoshi exists as fake
cooperate with alt, blackwall falls, alt controls the city, all citizens are controlled by ai
cooperate with saburo, mikoshi become absolute power, city controls by arasaka
flatline alt, destroy mikoshi and blackwall, free engrams and rogue ai to let them control cyberspace and citizens

and secondary characters don't change at all
panam and judy need family and run away
takemura, hanako and oda are always loyal
yori/johnny/rogue are rebels
what is ok but it feels a little flat

 

[nadsh]

Based on the whole narrative arc involving V, Johnny and The Relic, the game does exactly the opposite of this, it gives V hope, six months or not.

As for ''forcing fate'' upon the main character, it's fine as long as the character isn't a blank slate, which is the case of both Cyberpunk and The Witcher series.

Eh, V is semi defined and customizable. More similar to Shepard and Hawke than Geralt or Arthur, which tends to make players feel ownership of the character.

I know it's subjective and all games have limits in the choices and branches that can play out, but I had the same impression as @djisma69 here. I've played a lot of RPGs and never felt like my choices were pointless as much as in CP (except for some parts of ME3). Maybe in this case I was just trying to play the exact opposite character of what was expected to fit the story.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Eh, V is semi defined and customizable. More similar to Shepard and Hawke than Geralt or Arthur, which tends to make players feel ownership of the character.

I know it's subjective and all games have limits in the choices and branches that can play out, but I had the same impression as @djisma69 here. I've played a lot of RPGs and never felt like my choices were pointless as much as in CP (except for some parts of ME3). Maybe in this case I was just trying to play the exact opposite character of what was expected to fit the story.

are you saying it felt pointless because of 6 months, or are you talking about alternate paths during the story

 

[Didacgomez]

I start to suspect that CDPR should give a shot to graphical adventures and visual novels also.Shibuya Scramble has something like 100 branches and 87 endings.

 

[nadsh]

are you saying it felt pointless because of 6 months, or are you talking about alternate paths during the story

Both, excluding the prologue and Act 1 which were perfect to me. Jackie's death is unavoidable but that's fine. Essentially I started feeling like that from the second half of Act 2 onwards, when I expected Misty's pills, Johnny's friendship % and the main quest completion speed to play a role in the final outcome (V and Johnny's survival and possibility to coexist, or something like that), a corpo/true streetkid branch similar to the nomad one, more ways of dealing with Hellman and Hanako (picking the Devil ending only to betray them and access Mikoshi), the possibility to get Saul's support instead of Panam's and so on.

 

[exxxed]

until player read pills epilogue text

I remember you posting them a few hundred pages ago but I tried to not spoil myself as I want to experience The Sun ending first, as far as I remember the text in The Star is alright, The Devil though...

 

[Didacgomez]

Both, excluding the prologue and Act 1 which were perfect to me. Jackie's death is unavoidable but that's fine. Essentially I started feeling like that from the second half of Act 2 onwards, when I expected Misty's pills, Johnny's friendship % and the main quest completion speed to play a role in the final outcome (V and Johnny's survival and possibility to coexist, or something like that), a corpo/true streetkid branch similar to the nomad one, more ways of dealing with Hellman and Hanako (picking the Devil ending only to betray them and access Mikoshi), the possibility to get Saul's support instead of Panam's and so on.

Probably their biggest mistake was to include the "lifepath" options,it gave the impression of 3 different stories or 3 endings that should match the lifepath to a lot of players. In tabletop,that is a space of 10 lines to put background in your newly created character that you can even do with dice rolling over some tables if you don't feel very inspired. Its just used before the very 1st encounter of the player party so they can introduce themselves to the game,or if a game director feels sadistic use that information against one player at some point of the campaign to add some flavor.

 

[exxxed]

Eh, V is semi defined and customizable. More similar to Shepard and Hawke than Geralt or Arthur, which tends to make players feel ownership of the character.

I know it's subjective and all games have limits in the choices and branches that can play out, but I had the same impression as @djisma69 here. I've played a lot of RPGs and never felt like my choices were pointless as much as in CP (except for some parts of ME3). Maybe in this case I was just trying to play the exact opposite character of what was expected to fit the story.

That perhaps wasn't an option, I don't believe there's a character driven story heavy RPG that allows such kind of customizability from what I've played.

I find a lot of similarities between V, Shepard and Geralt, they all fit their own narratives as pre-made characters and none of them can deviate from the path set in front of them regardless of the choices they make (they can all die in their own stories though as a narrative choice which I suppose counts to some extent).

I feel that the overall choices were sufficient for me to define V's character to somewhat personalize the journey which was fantastic, but I do have a problem with the lack of equality, and in some regards, depth, of the consequences based on your choices.

 

[wright1978]

Based on the whole narrative arc involving V, Johnny and The Relic, the game does exactly the opposite of this, it gives V hope, six months or not.

As for ''forcing fate'' upon the main character, it's fine as long as the character isn't a blank slate, which is the case of both Cyberpunk and The Witcher series.

As for Dragon Age, as far as I know I'm being forced to become a Warden and fight the Darkspawn becoming the hero of Ferelden, fair enough it has some different epilogues which are basically the same scene with asset swaps, I much prefer the approach of Cyberpunk's epilogues as they offer much more content in retrospect and also helps mold V's character depending on the chosen life path and overall choices during the game.

Don't see in any way how handing down a new death sentence is giving hope.

Well there's always limits but forcing fate isn't always fine.

Personally I despise Cyberpunk's approach of ripping up your character choices and rewriting the character in the epilogue

 

[nadsh]

That perhaps wasn't an option, I don't believe there's a character driven story heavy RPG that allows such kind of customizability from what I've played.

I find a lot of similarities between V, Shepard and Geralt, they all fit their own narratives as pre-made characters and none of them can deviate from the path set in front of them regardless of the choices they make (they can all die in their own stories though as a narrative choice which I suppose counts to some extent).

Yeah I think that's a case of me trying to stray away from the main path of the story, while in ME most of the choices fit what I was already planning to do. Picking V/Shepard's lifepath/origin and being able to customize their appearance also makes them feel less of an established character than Geralt to me, even though parts of their personalities and goals are unchangeable in all 3 cases.

 

[exxxed]

Don't see in any way how handing down a new death sentence is giving hope.

Well there's always limits but forcing fate isn't always fine.

Personally I despise Cyberpunk's approach of ripping up your character choices and rewriting the character in the epilogue

Here we go in circles again...

Despite everyone telling V that the process is irreversible and they have a few weeks at most before being flatlined or overwritten unless they find a way to remove the chip, V overcomes all of that and has more time to fix the damage that they have endured.

I don't feel like any of my V's were rewritten by the endings, they were given few options to begin with and all of those options came with stings attached (The Devil and Star), I'm still working towards the secret ending and The Sun as we speak, who knows my impression might change.

 

[enkee23]

seems punchline
it was pointless
wrong city, wrong people

should has uprising words after
to give player more positive meaning

like this:
but remember what a bright path you walked
that beauty will never fade away
glhf and neva staph nightciting

they overpressed endings with depression
as with hype around the game