I mean there's more information about the relic but you have to search for it. The Mike Pondsmith cameo explains the dark nature of it, and how Arasaka is the devil and should NOT be trusted. If anything, the only positive thing about V is that when the endings come about, their engram was given directly to them and has no involvement with Arasaka.
For those interested in the cameo, here have a listen. It's certainly had me now thinking, okay, Arasaka are evil as heck if this is the actual case. Or is the Mike Pondsmith cameo just random nonsense, a red herring?
I was hoping someone had found something in the game that explained this particular choice. I hesitate to call it a plot hole because I was schooled on that once before. ( Spoilers *****I called Evie making a doll's salary actually having the money to set up the heist a plot hole until someone pointed out that if you read the Netwatch Agent's emails in Pacifica, you will find out that she had cut a deal with Netwatch to sell the relic and they were basically funding the heist ******Spoilers)
So, I was hoping that there was some in game e-mail, or obscure piece of lore that would explain why Johnny's engram of all the engrams located in Mikoshi would be imprinted onto the relic. I imagine there is some reasoning to it, because the VooDoo Boys, unlike Netwatch and other parties involved, were actually more interested in the Engram than the Relic. They knew Silverhand was on the relic and they needed him to make contact with Alt. So, if the VDBs knew that Silverhand was on the relic, it likely wasn't just some random decision.
Currently, my theories are:
1. It was yet another middle-finger from Yorinobu to his father. We do know from in game dialog that Yorinobu stole the relic from the heart of Arasaka labs and intended to sell it to Netwatch largely as an act of defiance. (Or to attempt to stoke the fires of war, Yorinobu's motivations are all over the place) It feels like imprinting the relic with the consciousness of one of his father's greatest enemies could have been another act of rebellion.
2. Saburo is a sadistic bastard that wanted to kill two birds with one stone. He needed to test the relic with an existing memory engram. And he wanted to have the pleasure of torturing one of his enemies back to death while simultaneously showing them that all their sacrafices and eventual death had been for nothing. Arasaka still stands, stronger than ever, and Johnny is just a rat in a maze for Saburo to torment as he pleases.
3. As others mentioned, there are hints in the game that Arasaka was beginning experimentation with manipulating the personalities of the Engrams, reshaping them into more compliant and agreeable versions. In this instance, Johnny would be a prime candidate for testing as I know Saburo would love to have Silverhand altered into a loyal lapdog of Arasaka.
So, those are my current theories. Eager to see if anyone has found any side mission, email or in game dialog that confirms any of the three.
I'm not 100% sure but I think it has something to do with Alt. Yorinobu was trying to sell the relic to Netwatch, we know netwatch is at war with the voodoo boys because they are trying to get beyond the blackwall and contact Alt. We also know that Alt is very powerful and basically is on the run from both Netwatch and Arasaka, we know they want to neutralize her once and for all and Netwatch also wants to keep her out of reach from the voodoo boys.
My guess is that they put Johnny on the relic initially to try and find a way to get at Alt somehow. I don't know what exactly their plans were, but this is really the only thing that makes sense to me. Arasaka is more afraid of Alt than it was of Johnny, after they caught Johnny and lost Alt, perhaps they thought they could finally have a use for Johnny and could use him to lead them to Alt (kinda like how we used him to lead us and the Voodoo boys to her).
I'm not 100% sure but I think it has something to do with Alt. Yorinobu was trying to sell the relic to Netwatch, we know netwatch is at war with the voodoo boys because they are trying to get beyond the blackwall and contact Alt. We also know that Alt is very powerful and basically is on the run from both Netwatch and Arasaka, we know they want to neutralize her once and for all and Netwatch also wants to keep her out of reach from the voodoo boys.
My guess is that they put Johnny on the relic initially to try and find a way to get at Alt somehow. I don't know what exactly their plans were, but this is really the only thing that makes sense to me. Arasaka is more afraid of Alt than it was of Johnny, after they caught Johnny and lost Alt, perhaps they thought they could finally have a use for Johnny and could use him to lead them to Alt (kinda like how we used him to lead us and the Voodoo boys to her).
Check out my post earlier in the thread. Also if you're a fan of the "Morro Rock" radio station (unless it's a different station...), you'll often hear the conspiracy theorist talk show come on. He talks about the Biotechnica werewolves, Johnny Silverhand's fate, and a few other topics. Like all conspiracy theorists in the game, there is a grain of truth to what each of them is talking about--no matter how outlandish the claim. Even if it -sounds- crazy, the characters are doing their best to frame circumstances outside comprehension. The Engrams are a form a 'techo-necromancy' after all...
. Having played through twice, it never ceases to amaze me just how much Gary the Prophet actually was -right- about. Even the portents of Mr. Blue Eyes and their true identity in "The Sun" ending. Dig deeper, treat the metaphors as crude interpretations. Gary is always truth adjacent. Johnny even comments that he's just making up believable fairy tales. And yet Gary is so, so close to reality it hurts. Poor guy is just trying to put a narrative to the depth of secrets he's being fed by the espionage implant.
... huh. I just realized how much that juxtaposes with Misty's love of the tarot decks. Vague symbols, interpreted by observers without full comprehension, that somehow tell the truth. Kind of neat.
In one of the podcasts, the radio host starts discussing Yorinobu, the Steel Dragons, and why Yorinobu quit trying to be a gang leader--the dates line up with the day the towers blew. Yorinobu was fully capable of selling Johnny on a Relic 1.0 chip. He was fully capable of selling a 1.0 chip of Jonny and a 2.0 chip that was blank or literally anybody else stored in Mikoshi--even a Netwatch agent.
Yorinobu -picked- Johnny to maximize damage. Saburo probably would have found out much later if Hellman hadn't snitched.
I'm not 100% sure but I think it has something to do with Alt. Yorinobu was trying to sell the relic to Netwatch, we know netwatch is at war with the voodoo boys because they are trying to get beyond the blackwall and contact Alt. We also know that Alt is very powerful and basically is on the run from both Netwatch and Arasaka, we know they want to neutralize her once and for all and Netwatch also wants to keep her out of reach from the voodoo boys.
My guess is that they put Johnny on the relic initially to try and find a way to get at Alt somehow. I don't know what exactly their plans were, but this is really the only thing that makes sense to me. Arasaka is more afraid of Alt than it was of Johnny, after they caught Johnny and lost Alt, perhaps they thought they could finally have a use for Johnny and could use him to lead them to Alt (kinda like how we used him to lead us and the Voodoo boys to her).
Hadn't thought of this, but the more I think of it, the more I like it. It also plays into a reoccurring theme in the game: Johnny's ego leading him to believe that his personal crusade against Arasaka is the center of the universe, when in actuality, he is merely a side piece to the truly important figure, Alt Cunningham.
Haven't you been reading my posts in the ending thread? They did it to railroad him into the game. They try to manipulate you into choosing the ending where Johnny takes your body. That's why you get things like them "there are fates worse than death". They give even your copy just 6 months left to live, so you will sit there and think "Well Johnny has an entire life he could live, while I only have 6 months left". That is the writers pushing you into choosing their desired ending. Johnny was shoehorned into this game, Johnny takes V's spotlight, makes V a sideshow.
As I said in the other thread, this is a case of the creator's vision superseding player choice. What I don't understand is, why did they even bother with V at all? Make a game about just Johnny Silverhand if you wanted him so bad.
This so much. After completing the game the first time I kinda liked Johnny but felt he had too much presence. I also resented all the endings. Making it feel like "nothing fucking matters anyway" since you die no matter what. Then in my second playthrough - I just ended up hating him being in the game completely.
They really messed up because it feels exactly like you stated - Johnny taking the spotlight and V feeling like some sidekick.
The reason they kept johnny "Alive" is the same reason they wanted to Keep Alt alive 50 years ago. Saburo Arasaka wants to control humanity, If he could have figured out a way to control Johnny Silverhand, he would have achieved a massive milestone toward this endeavor. Johnny Silverhand was the biggest rockerboy to exist at the time. The concert he played before blowing up Arasaka Tower started Massive Riots. Imagine that but It was actuallyArasaka pulling the strings and getting people to blow up millitech/biotechnica/etc. That would have been HUGE for Arasaka. And considering how some of the endings go, its probably what they wanted in the first place.
The only question that I think is left un-answered is why Yorinobu Stole Johnny Silverhand in the first place? My best guess is he would have revived him somehow and gotten him to take out Saburo and Hanoko, but that's speculation and it also seems like it wouldn't because johnny hates 'Saka and would definitely not work with Yorinobu just pull off a corporate coup. Right there is the real plot hole, and it ultimately doesn't matter because V steals the chip and ruins whatever half baked plan Yorinobu had.
Max Mike is spitting out some plot hooks for prospective tabletop GMs to include in their Cyberpunk campaigns. Also some truths about the plot of the game itself. I swear, seems like half the games plot is scribbled into the margins.
As to why Johnny is on the chip, Yorinobu loading Johnny's engram there to spite the old man is likely. Another possibility was because Yorinobu wanted to resurrect Johnny in order to recruit him into his anti-Arasaka / anti-Dad plans.
She collaborates with V because she wants the one-of-a-kind biochip. Because using the biochip, she can have Hellman fix the chip and upload dear old dad unto it, snuff out her big bro and still have a fresh cadaver for dad to live in.
The only time that she is in any danger near V is in the villa. A event that didn't go to her plan. Otherwise she is always in company of her trusted guards. Also remember, she had been at V's mercy in the abandoned apartment building. As far as she can see, V does not pose a physical danger.
After that conclusion, it is a matter of the old adage; Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
She collaborates with V because she wants the one-of-a-kind biochip. Because using the biochip, she can have Hellman fix the chip and upload dear old dad unto it
Your reasoning is cool but it is unfortunately proven to be factually false by the writers.
In the Arasaka ending if you didn't save Takemura: When questioned about why V's mind cannot be switched to another body the same way as what was done for Saburo and Yorinobu, Hellman says the reason it worked for them is that their kinship and relentless team of scientists made it possible. Hellman goes on to say that both of these things are lacking for V which is the reason why the transfer is impossible for him.
Therefore, the obstacle for V is not that there was only one biochip that allowed such a transfer, thus Hanako did not need V's chip for the purpose of putting Saburo's mind in Yori's body.
The reason for Hanako to collaborate with V is exactly as she tells him (trying to prove to the Arasaka Board that Yorinobu killed his father), and like I said, it's retarded.
Your reasoning is cool but it is unfortunately proven to be factually false by the writers.
In the Arasaka ending if you didn't save Takemura: When questioned about why V's mind cannot be switched to another body the same way as what was done for Saburo and Yorinobu, Hellman says the reason it worked for them is that their kinship and relentless team of scientists made it possible. Hellman goes on to say that both of these things are lacking for V which is the reason why the transfer is impossible for him.
Therefore, the obstacle for V is not that there was only one biochip that allowed such a transfer, thus Hanako did not need V's chip for the purpose of putting Saburo's mind in Yori's body.
The reason for Hanako to collaborate with V is exactly as she tells him (trying to prove to the Arasaka Board that Yorinobu killed his father). And like I said, it's retarded.
That wasn't my interpretation of the scene. Especially when compared to V's earlier conversation with Hellman. In their earlier conversation Hellman appeared genuinely shocked that the biochip was integrating Johnny Silverhand into V's consciousness and overwriting his own mind. He seemed to be indicating that what the chip was doing was beyond what he had believed had been within its capability as V shouldn't have been a compatible host for Johnny, particularly while V was still alive and not in a vegetative state. I don't remember where, but there are some e-mails or background flavor texts somewhere talking about earlier failed trials with the relic.
The biochip was a prototype designed to install a memory engram into a blank host while simultaneously altering the host to be permanently receptive to the new memory engram. Hanako would definitely need an operational copy of the chip in order to transfer an engram of her father to a new host. Now, you could argue that with Hellman returned to the Arasaka fold, they would be capable of producing more of the prototype chips, they would still require one in order to transfer Suboru to Yorinobu.
The reason Hellman stresses the father son kinship and a relentless team of scientists in Saburo's resurrection is because Johnny's own rebirth was a strange confluence of rare circumstances that they would likely be incapable of replicating in laboratory conditions.
Your reasoning is cool but it is unfortunately proven to be factually false by the writers.
In the Arasaka ending if you didn't save Takemura: When questioned about why V's mind cannot be switched to another body the same way as what was done for Saburo and Yorinobu, Hellman says the reason is that their kinship and relentless team of scientists made it possible.
Goro-sempai says much the same, but that doesn't change the reasoning. The biochip is the tool used to achieve this end. Which is the reason why Hanako collaborates with you.
The reason V is dying is because V's body is rejecting V's brain as foreign tissue. Because the biochip has rewritten V's DNA to fit Johnny's engram's neurology. At the same time, V's neurology has been meeting Johnny's halfway. So if you clone V from his original tissue or from Johnny-fied tissue, V's current brain / engram is non-suitable.
Assuming that Hellman isn't lying, which I believe he is, to you or to Takemura.
Sorry, I read you guys' explanations and I fail to grasp how you can substitute the game's reasoning with your own.
"We have yet to solve the COMPATIBILITY issue" (...) "You have no offspring." Hellman spells out the reason why V cannot get a new body.
Maybe I am just dense, but I don't see why Hellman wouldn't answer V directly with: "There's only one chip that allowed us to do that and it's in now Yori's head" if it was the case, at least in a well-written story.
Here is the exact conversation so everyone can judge with a refreshed memory (timestamp is 1:22:30):
Sorry, I read you guys' explanations and I fail to grasp how you can substitute the game's reasoning with your own.
Maybe I am just dense, but if you were right, I do not see why Hellman wouldn't answer V's question with: "we can't because there's no other bioship like the one we took from your head bro". instead of "You have no offspring." Here is the exact conversation so everyone can judge with a refreshed memory (timestamp is 1:22:30):
In that very scene, Hellman is trying his best to convince you to sign your soul over to Arasaka and is visibly upset if you refuse. I don't understand how anyone can watch that scene and accept a single word out of Hellman's mouth as anything but half-truths and outright lies. The entire sequence is designed to evoke a feeling of signing a deal with the devil. The entire 15 minutes leading up to it is designed to make the player questions what is real and what is illusion. If you believe that the Dev's intention with this scene is that Hellman's words are to be taken as God's own truth, we are going to have to respectfully agree to disagree.
I agree he would hide the ugly face of the Secure your soul program, but why lie about the reason why V can't get a new body? Such a lie doesn't create any incentive towards signing the deal for V, because in both cases the new body is unattainable.
It's a matter of interpretation, you're right.
Sorry, I just don't buy your explanation. Anyone who gets the chip inserted into his system gets his mind rewritten with that of the person who proved to be the most dangerous to the company. Why take this risk at all? What purpose does it serve as far as research goes that is not accomplished by using any other rando instead? It is 100 percent a plot hole, and the story is riddled with them.
Yes, I've read a lot of great points in this topic (and even in-game through some texts and radio talks) about the reason why 1. an engram of Johnny was made and 2. put on the chip by Yori and I admit my mistake, (although I insist point 2. should've been properly explained in the game). However, my main problem with Hanako's motivations remains.
I agree he would hide the ugly face of the Secure your soul program, but why lie about the reason why V can't get a new body? Such a lie doesn't create any incentive towards signing the deal for V, because in both cases the new body is unattainable.
It's a matter of interpretation, you're right.
Couple of things here. Hellman is desperately trying to get V to sign away his soul. He needs him to sign that contract and its a lot easier to get people to believe a half-truth than an outright lie. If he told V to sign, and they would convert his consciousness to an engram and promptly get him uploaded to a new compatible body, V's BS sensors likely go off in full force. But, if instead he makes some vague offer with no firm date in the future, well, that's a crap deal, but V might be able to delude himself into thinking that one day they will make good on bringing him back.
Second, Hellman isn't technically lying. As I mentioned, there are e-mails and files you can find in the game that specifically talk about the relic's intended function and how that prior to V, all attempts to upload a consciousness to a host body have failed. Hellman didn't know why it was failing before, and he still doesn't understand why it worked on V. He does know that an entire team of relentless researchers got it to work for Soburo and Yorinobu, but he still doesn't know all the variables or how to consistently reproduce the results. So, he's not going to promise V anything he obviously can't deliver in that moment because he's a terrible liar and V would see right through it. Instead, insinuate that, maybe, possibly, somewhere down the line, V will get a second chance at life.
Yes, I've read a lot of great points in this topic (and even in-game through some texts and radio talks) about the reason why 1. an engram of Johnny was made and 2. put on the chip by Yori and I admit my mistake, (although I insist point 2. should've been properly explained in the game). However, my main problem with Hanako's motivations remains.
Hanako's motivations read to me as all kinds of messed up. I may be reading waaaaayyy to much into their relation ship, but I got some real incesty vibes from Hanako and Yorinobu. (Like the fact that Evalyn is a doll, and when she visits Yori in the BD she is wearing similar attire to Hanako and some of their interactions have strange insinuations if you think about them too long)
Hanako states that she and every member of the board always knew that Yorinobu killed his father but was not inclined to move against him until it became increasingly obvious that he was intending to kill her as well. My suspicion is that Yorinobu was always intended to be a vessel for his father's rebirth and that Hanako was content to slow play the situation until she realized her brother trying to remove her from the equation. Perhaps Yorinobu himself suspected the endgame, which is why he stole the relic in the first place. You can make a lot of speculations on what is going with the beyond messed up family dynamic.
Regardless, once Hanako realized what her brother was attempting, she knew that she would need to accelerate her plans to resurrect her father. And for that, she needed an outside contractor in V. I don't know if she specifically needed the relic back from V or not. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, with Hellman back at Arasaka, they could likely make more. But she did need his help to remove Yorinobu from power and thus restore her father.
I just wanted to clarify one thing about "why Johnny was on Relic", because didn't saw anyone specify that one thing, and only theories while there is somewhat answer ingame.
After first playthrough i was focused on main storyline and skipped lot of exploring while thinking i will have time to do that later, and finally i started again from new game. This time with no rush i checked almost all mails and datashards, and found out something interesting. After "first game" the relic and Johnny thing looked like just accident/Yorinobu idea for revange on his father, BUT it was not his idea at all. After playing for the second time, i took a time in Heist mission to check Yorinobu mail (despite beeing rushed by Jackie and T-Bug), and it was right there: Yorinobu wanted to sell Relic v2.0 to NetWach (as Evelyn said earlier before Heist mission), but the NetWatch ALSO wanted specifically that biochip with Johnny Silverhand Engram.
I didn't yet reach that part of storywith VoodoBoys vs NetWatch, so atm. i only speculate that it was all about Blackwall.
I really think we will find out later in DLC, why Johnny was specifically on that BioChip. If NetWatch wanted it, why would they fund a heist to steal the chip if Yorinobu was going to sell it to them anyway, because it was cheaper? Seems risky to fund a heist just to pay less money. My theory is that Alt is somehow involved with Johnny being on the BioChip, and purposely wants Johnny to live on through V once she finds out Johnny is in V's body.
It seems very odd to me that Alt would promise to turn V into an engram and the place him/her back in their body and overlook the compatibility issues that the BioChip caused. That is a VERY big over site. A better question is how are they going to do DLC that continues the story, based off the multiple endings?
SPOILERS Are they going to continue V's story with limited time to live or are they going to drag Johnny back in V's body to continue they story?
