I'm with Paci on this one. There is no interactivity when playing against the mill strategy. Even a simple 5 body 5 prov card that puts 2 cards from graveyard back into your deck could be an option.
You mean the shortcut itself? RNG=Random Number Generator.
That would mean that the mill archetipe is designed to loose most of the time. That sounds like a major design flaw to me.
Well, this was perfectly fine before mill decks started running Kolgrim - even if you bricked some tutors, you still had a chance, because mill decks used to have low point ceiling. But now, if you can't deal with Kolgrim, you're done; and dealing with Kolgrim is only possible if you got lucky and drew the answer for him in R1.
Most deck have no answer for Courier or Warrit. Are you seriously going to play some useless card like Ofiri Merchant or Maxxi? Playing your best card in R1 is not as bad as letting your opponent steal it, but it means it's gone either way. I would say this strategy is pretty legit and definitely not as toxic as random milling, but for some decks loosing the best card in R1 is no different from loosing the game, especially when the opponent didn't have to loose something of equal value.
The fact that mill is now a mainstream deck shows how bad the current state of the game is atm.
NG Tactical Decision decks all over the place too, like it's the only existing NG leader.
NG Tactical Decision decks all over the place too, like it's the only existing NG leader.
The only disadvantage of Mill was the low tempo and usually I would comfortably win against mill 2-0. But now, it is not possible as NG had got one of the best tempo/pointslam non-sense that you can't do 2-0 and if you can't do 2-0, it is game over. As long as mill is a thing, NG shouldn't have possibility of high tempo pointslam plays. If it is possible/available (like now) mill can be the laziest archetype to play and it will be dominant. It wont be the meta breaker, but the meta itself. It is just a solitaire game, just like Viy.
I don't think there is any problem with the mill archetype.
1. It was never even close to being competitive.
2. It adds variety to the game.
3. Even though it could be annoying at times, as soon as you realise you play against mill deck, you adjust the strategy, stop drawings cards and will likely win 2-0.
1. It was never even close to being competitive.
2. It adds variety to the game.
3. Even though it could be annoying at times, as soon as you realise you play against mill deck, you adjust the strategy, stop drawings cards and will likely win 2-0.
You reminded me of Bertie Bott's Every Flavour Beans from Harry Potter. They come in flavours such as: dirt, feet, glue or fish. YUM!
I’m going to go one step further than StanislavOZZO — one that may be unpopular but that I still feel is valid. Mill is maybe OK, but I think it should be more competitive — that’s right, more competitive. Here’s why:
1. Mill is a deck that actually forces an opponent to be creative in play. If you are facing mill, maybe you should consider removing a kingslayer on your side of the board to prevent it from being copied. Maybe you shouldn’t tutor your best card to the top of your deck — in fact maybe you shouldn’t tutor at all if it thins the deck. Maybe you should rethink using all your thinning cards. Maybe you should rethink just which rounds you want to win. Maybe you should try something otherwise crazy like passing with 8 or 9 cards to keep more in your deck. Because every match is a new challenge, mill is actually my favorite deck to play against!
2. Mill is a good balancer of excesses. In my opinion, Gwent suffers from excessive tutoring; mill counters that. Gwent suffers from excessive deck polarization; mill counters that. Gwent suffers from certain cards that play for far too much value; mill counters that. Gwent suffers from too little incentive to build decks past 25 cards; mill changes that. Gwent suffers from too much hyperthin power; mill counters that. Gwent suffers from variety in decks; mill helps address that. Even when I don’t get to play against it, mill increases probability I face decks that are fun to play against.
Offsetting it’s advantages, I can think of one valid disadvantage. (“I don’t like it.” doesn’t qualify as valid.) Mill is a bit prone to RNG if the deck opposing it draws poorly. But I blame this on forces promoting deck polarization — not on the mill archetype.
1. Mill is a deck that actually forces an opponent to be creative in play. If you are facing mill, maybe you should consider removing a kingslayer on your side of the board to prevent it from being copied. Maybe you shouldn’t tutor your best card to the top of your deck — in fact maybe you shouldn’t tutor at all if it thins the deck. Maybe you should rethink using all your thinning cards. Maybe you should rethink just which rounds you want to win. Maybe you should try something otherwise crazy like passing with 8 or 9 cards to keep more in your deck. Because every match is a new challenge, mill is actually my favorite deck to play against!
2. Mill is a good balancer of excesses. In my opinion, Gwent suffers from excessive tutoring; mill counters that. Gwent suffers from excessive deck polarization; mill counters that. Gwent suffers from certain cards that play for far too much value; mill counters that. Gwent suffers from too little incentive to build decks past 25 cards; mill changes that. Gwent suffers from too much hyperthin power; mill counters that. Gwent suffers from variety in decks; mill helps address that. Even when I don’t get to play against it, mill increases probability I face decks that are fun to play against.
Offsetting it’s advantages, I can think of one valid disadvantage. (“I don’t like it.” doesn’t qualify as valid.) Mill is a bit prone to RNG if the deck opposing it draws poorly. But I blame this on forces promoting deck polarization — not on the mill archetype.
Mill isn't a good solution to any of those issues. That's like saying that not playing the game at all fixes deck polarization or cards playing for too much points or anything else (which it most certainly does lol).
The thing with banishing someone's card before he can play it and not being able to do anything about it is pretty bs, it's like RNG fiesta. And now mill is a mainstream deck so you have your wish granted, but still you want it to be even easier.
But... despite all of this, I wouldn't like mill to be completely wiped out lol.
The thing with banishing someone's card before he can play it and not being able to do anything about it is pretty bs, it's like RNG fiesta. And now mill is a mainstream deck so you have your wish granted, but still you want it to be even easier.
But... despite all of this, I wouldn't like mill to be completely wiped out lol.
Last edited:
Obviously you hate mill, the moment you posted it on january wasn't even close to a decent deck. Those changes you suggest would totally kill Mill archetype. If you can only mill the opponent bad cards (max 6 provisions with kingslayer as suggested), you are just helping them with thinning and they'd get the good gold cards by round 2.
Now it's being played again just for the new card. The moment they nerf Wanderers, Mill will be put to rest for another long time. And even now it is not very good.
By the way I agree with quintivarium comment, mill saved this meta from being an hyperthin meta. In the beginning the streamers were farming wins with mill because everyone was playing wanderers hyperthin which had a ton of points. Today there are few remaining who play hyperthin, people started to play other decks like Koschey or Commandos which counter Mill very well. And so people relaxed and stopped playing Mill. In my opinion, Mill should keep existing as it is now, as a control for ultra-thinning decks.
Now it's being played again just for the new card. The moment they nerf Wanderers, Mill will be put to rest for another long time. And even now it is not very good.
By the way I agree with quintivarium comment, mill saved this meta from being an hyperthin meta. In the beginning the streamers were farming wins with mill because everyone was playing wanderers hyperthin which had a ton of points. Today there are few remaining who play hyperthin, people started to play other decks like Koschey or Commandos which counter Mill very well. And so people relaxed and stopped playing Mill. In my opinion, Mill should keep existing as it is now, as a control for ultra-thinning decks.
it costs 7 provision but it worth 8 - 30 provision to play
It takes opponents unit slot giving only 1 power, which is not enough as there Nauzicaa, Dame, Aristocrate, Assimilate Units
It has no counterplay
Solutions:
1) Delete from the game or complete rework required
Deploy: draw a lowest provision card from opponent's deck and play it
Deploy: draw a bronze card from opponent's deck and play it, if none play gold
2) Change valuesDeploy: draw a bronze card from opponent's deck and play it, if none play gold
Change provision cost to 9
Change power to 4
3) Give Counter
it costs 6 provision but it worth 8 - 15 provision to play
It has no counterplay
Solutions:
1) Delete from the game or complete rework required
Deploy: banish a lowest provision card from opponent's deck
Deploy: banish a bronze card from opponent's deck, if none banish gold
Deploy: banish a bronze card from opponent's deck, if none banish gold
These numbers are just ridiculous. Making arguments based on such numbers is not a good idea, because everyone can clearly see you are not even trying to be realistic or accurate with them.
As if Kingslayer never hit anything cheap. There are even cards that make it possible to make sure it does hit trash.
As if Cantarella never backfired, and as if she always got such great value when she doesn't backfire. 30 is insanely overexaggerated. She can also be sabotaged just like Kingslayer can.
There are good anti-mill arguments out there, but neither of these two can be classified as such or even remotely good.
I am not in Pro Rank and currently I don't play a lot of Gwent at all so I don't know all the Mill and Hyperthin Lists out there. But I just took a look at the lists on the TLG-Website. Both have almost the exact same tools for thinning and consistency. So why is Hyperthin bad and Mill ok?
I think some people would say hyperthin is ok and mill is bad
But to attempt to answer your question: I am not sure we are looking at the same decks. I could not find hyperthin on TLG’s site, and the mill deck I saw struck me as more a hyperthin with some elements of mill (all out mill really is not competitive).
The big difference is that mill manipulates your opponent’s deck by removing cards with the primary intention of depleting the deck by round three. It has a secondary effect of (usually randomly) removing a high provision card from the opponent’s deck. Hyperthin has the intention of removing cards from your own deck until only one tall unit remains. This unit is then used with cards like Xarthisus that reveal a card to modify a boost or damage. They may use some of the same tools (like Matta or Vilgefortz) but for very different purposes.
As to why one might be OK and the other bad; that is probably purely opinion — and I would not want to put words in other players mouths.
I have already explained why I think mill is good for the game. As for hyperthin, I would not call it bad — provided it can be moderated by tools like mill. I dislike it because it uses numerous cards that I believe generate far too many points for one card. And while these cards can be attacked after they are played (and have already generated value), only NG has tools to directly interact with the strategy itself (except in the highly unusual cases where all possible boostable units are destroyed before they can be boosted and no friendly units can be targeted for damage). Thus its effectiveness (unless playing other NG decks) is determined solely by its ability to draw the right cards in the right order. As long as it is not too strong, Hyperthin adds variety to matchups — but without mill and clog (another widely hated archetype) I think hyperthin is far too strong. I, for one, find it neither interesting to play or to play against because it rarely leads to creative strategic decisions — but that is personal preference and does not mean a deck is “bad”.
Because I personally have no problem with mill (or clog), I can only conjecture as to why others hate the deck(s). My best guess it that players believe their cards and decks should be off limits for their opponent. Hyperthin is OK because it primarily targets your own deck. Clog and mill are bad because they target an opponent’s deck.
But to attempt to answer your question: I am not sure we are looking at the same decks. I could not find hyperthin on TLG’s site, and the mill deck I saw struck me as more a hyperthin with some elements of mill (all out mill really is not competitive).
The big difference is that mill manipulates your opponent’s deck by removing cards with the primary intention of depleting the deck by round three. It has a secondary effect of (usually randomly) removing a high provision card from the opponent’s deck. Hyperthin has the intention of removing cards from your own deck until only one tall unit remains. This unit is then used with cards like Xarthisus that reveal a card to modify a boost or damage. They may use some of the same tools (like Matta or Vilgefortz) but for very different purposes.
As to why one might be OK and the other bad; that is probably purely opinion — and I would not want to put words in other players mouths.
I have already explained why I think mill is good for the game. As for hyperthin, I would not call it bad — provided it can be moderated by tools like mill. I dislike it because it uses numerous cards that I believe generate far too many points for one card. And while these cards can be attacked after they are played (and have already generated value), only NG has tools to directly interact with the strategy itself (except in the highly unusual cases where all possible boostable units are destroyed before they can be boosted and no friendly units can be targeted for damage). Thus its effectiveness (unless playing other NG decks) is determined solely by its ability to draw the right cards in the right order. As long as it is not too strong, Hyperthin adds variety to matchups — but without mill and clog (another widely hated archetype) I think hyperthin is far too strong. I, for one, find it neither interesting to play or to play against because it rarely leads to creative strategic decisions — but that is personal preference and does not mean a deck is “bad”.
Because I personally have no problem with mill (or clog), I can only conjecture as to why others hate the deck(s). My best guess it that players believe their cards and decks should be off limits for their opponent. Hyperthin is OK because it primarily targets your own deck. Clog and mill are bad because they target an opponent’s deck.
As soon as hyperthin gets too prevalent, mill steps in to farm wins
I would say mill became kind of toxic (not saying it was fun to play against it before) with the change to banishing/summoning the cards along with the introduction of the hand limit with Homecoming which just punishes bad starting hands even further.
Before that mill actually gave the Cards in Hand
and now with Cards like Matta and Thaler actually working like this I think it should be reverted to Drawing instead of Banishing/Discarding, that way it feels a lot more fair than just seeing you're highest provision cards banished if you didn't draw into them round 1.
Canta along with VWA should be reworked entirely, I know it's fun to double high roll into the opponents win condition (had recently a game where I high rolled into Kolgrim and Defender) but this just doesn't feel fair and has nothing to do with skill, heck I even did beat one of the Masters#1 participants because of a Canta high roll into his Evolving Card.
Before that mill actually gave the Cards in Hand
and now with Cards like Matta and Thaler actually working like this I think it should be reverted to Drawing instead of Banishing/Discarding, that way it feels a lot more fair than just seeing you're highest provision cards banished if you didn't draw into them round 1.
Canta along with VWA should be reworked entirely, I know it's fun to double high roll into the opponents win condition (had recently a game where I high rolled into Kolgrim and Defender
) but this just doesn't feel fair and has nothing to do with skill, heck I even did beat one of the Masters#1 participants because of a Canta high roll into his Evolving Card.Yeah, old beta Mill was better, although it took centuries to complete one roundI would say mill became kind of toxic (not saying it was fun to play against it before) with the change to banishing/summoning the cards along with the introduction of the hand limit with Homecoming which just punishes bad starting hands even further.
Before that mill actually gave the Cards in Hand
and now with Cards like Matta and Thaler actually working like this I think it should be reverted to Drawing instead of Banishing/Discarding, that way it feels a lot more fair than just seeing you're highest provision cards banished if you didn't draw into them round 1.
Canta along with VWA should be reworked entirely, I know it's fun to double high roll into the opponents win condition (had recently a game where I high rolled into Kolgrim and Defender
Me for example
, for the reason you stated at the bottom of your post: I get to keep my cards.Isn't the 'Reveal' Deck in Tier 2 Hyperthin?
Like I said I am not familiar with Mill-Decks but doesn't the Mill-Deck on the TLG-Website have the potential to mill 12 cards?
You said "Mill is a good balancer of excesses". But when looking at those lists it does so by using (at least some of) those excesses themselves.
I get your point about Mill countering Hyperthin, that is something I didn't consider before, but stilI, I wholeheartedly agree with this:
I just got to pro rank from rank 3, mostly playing mill, and its not even close as strong as u guys think. (32 games played 7 loses)
If u get blue coin as mill you will lose if your opponnet knows what hes playing against no matter what deck hes playing(exception being hyperthin),
because mill lacks points, its whole strategy is to mill the enemy deck to get a 1,2 or 3 card advantage in the end to make up playing the horrible non tempo cards like kingslayer, Traehern etc. The object is not to mill the strongest enemy cards altough it might happen in the process if you are lucky. The biggest thing enabling mill atm is SSW which is the perfect card to synergize with the deck, pointslam to catch up/thining, draw into yenvo card etc.
Also probably the biggest factor making mill strong is the fact that players have no idea how to play against it. Ive seen people thining so much and so hard without the slightest intent of actual thought to play around it....
The games I lost were mostly hardcore domination by people who know how to play gwent in general (they beat me like 20-30 points in a 2:0), and I really wish I filmed 1 game where opponet played such a shitty winter monster deck, and I managed to mill his high end cards(Auberon, Nithral, Yhgern, Eredin, 1 foglet) and he still won in the end by playing 4 and 5p bronzes because he knows that mill sucks even more than his homebrew.
If u get blue coin as mill you will lose if your opponnet knows what hes playing against no matter what deck hes playing(exception being hyperthin),
because mill lacks points, its whole strategy is to mill the enemy deck to get a 1,2 or 3 card advantage in the end to make up playing the horrible non tempo cards like kingslayer, Traehern etc. The object is not to mill the strongest enemy cards altough it might happen in the process if you are lucky. The biggest thing enabling mill atm is SSW which is the perfect card to synergize with the deck, pointslam to catch up/thining, draw into yenvo card etc.
Also probably the biggest factor making mill strong is the fact that players have no idea how to play against it. Ive seen people thining so much and so hard without the slightest intent of actual thought to play around it....
The games I lost were mostly hardcore domination by people who know how to play gwent in general (they beat me like 20-30 points in a 2:0), and I really wish I filmed 1 game where opponet played such a shitty winter monster deck, and I managed to mill his high end cards(Auberon, Nithral, Yhgern, Eredin, 1 foglet) and he still won in the end by playing 4 and 5p bronzes because he knows that mill sucks even more than his homebrew.
A huge game deciding factor in a match against Mill is whether you snipe opponent's key cards or not. Here you can see changes for 3 RNG-based mill cards:
- Reduced the variance for Kingslayer
- Removed the ability of random high-roll mills for Traheaern and Cantarella. These cards still keep the flavor and function of the original ability.