Temporary Stat Boasts?

[Sild]

I've never played a game other than a survival/sim game where food/drink were mandatory. And i've played MMORPG's where Cooking was a valid skill. Yea they gave significant power ups but you could without them, and do well. As for realism, i think half-way is the way to go imo, as is, not too integral, not too passable. The details are pretty much up in the air on what would work/fit/add or detract from each person's experience. But like @Mybrokenenglish said, stims could be an alternative sustenance and boost for the player which leaves food (since it will be in the game) as a less important mechanic, fluff, with minor effects or longer several hours/days effects... idk, just throwing it out there.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

The desire or compulsion to spam the feature is easily discouraged by penalizing overdosage.

But I must press on, that this sort of feature should not be a one way road at a whim. That one simply farms bonuses if one wants to.

In my mind, there needs to be a reason and a function to use those features beyond ”I want to”. Something they are countering. Something that gives them meaning beyond a measly +5% bonus on this or that. Something that makes these features interesting.

It might sound like a chore, but gameplay features don’t need to be all sugar and whipped cream.

It’s a small scale challenge at the same time as it is a feature of immersion and buffing.

 

[Skirlasvoud]

well i expect counter points to be reasonable.

A debate where one party judges another's arguments to be valid based merely on whether they seem reasonable to them, has taken a bad turn somewhere. I'd love to leave what each of us thinks is reasonable and/or expect open for debate.


I'm not much for "realism" myself, although I can certainly respect that a close-to-life experience can be satisfying for others. I suppose it would depend on the core gameplay loop for me, and I've not been able discern much of that from just the demo.

Ironically, I've just started replaying the Sims of all things, where taking care of the realistic needs of your characters and moods is at the forefront of the experience. I love that, since it's intimately tied to the core gameplay loop. Living day by day IS the intended purpose of the game.

In a game like Mass Effect however, I would not expect to take care of Shephard's bodily needs, since it just gets in the way of the shooting and story. In a game like Witcher 2/3 or even Monster Hunter, swallowing some potions or sitting down for a tasty meal is more about of the necessary preparations ahead of the fight, more than it is about taking care of your character's needs. Haven't played R2D2 but I suspect it's similar. Taking down a monster and using whatever pops out to buff yourself, is a matter of a feedback in the system of the game's mechanics.


Food and buffs need not be so much a matter of realism to me, as they are an interesting mechanic that ties into the rest of the game. They need a proper reason for existing. In Witcher/RDR2/MonsterHunter, it is a tactical considerations ahead of a challenge that feeds into the gameplay. That it looks like food in the Witcher/RDR2/MonsterHunter, is simply how these mechanics are presented. I don't buy into the whole "realism" argument myself. I'd be just as happy with "V" popping some combat drugs she took off the bodies of the mooks he/she shot earlier, as I would Geralt or Arthur Morgan eating some meat he took off the body of the monster/animal he slayed earlier. In that case, drugs replace food and I wouldn't miss it since it's functionally the same.


My question is: Is CP77 about life in Night City, where the focus is on a realistic simulation of day-to-day living like in the Sims, or is it like Witcher in that you're chasing after the steps of the story, or Monster Hunter where you're preparing for fights that lead to achievements?

Should there be items and actions to give a temporary stat boost? Sure, why not? I'm just more interested in how these mechanics coincide with the gameplay, rather than have them be added on basis of just "realism". I'm not a big believer if these items or mechanics existing "just because", but would love to see them if CDPR can tie them back into the game in an interesting way that's functional to it's core premise.

 

[animalfather]

A debate where one party judges another's arguments to be valid based merely on whether they seem reasonable to them, has taken a bad turn somewhere. I'd love to leave what each of us thinks is reasonable and/or expect open for debate.

Well I take issue with people complaining about optional features in games. I've had several discussions with members here on certain issues and there is always a group of naysayers that won't listen to reason or compromise. The game has vendors, V eats and drinks we saw that in the gameplay demo. Obviously it should give you a boast when you eat or drink if it doesn't then whats the point. keeping it optional with minor boast is very reasonable but for some people they think its chore because if the option is there they they feel obligated to do it even though the boast is very minor, if this is the case you have bigger issues than this game.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

@Skirlasvoud in RDR2 you don't get any boost (usually): food is used to restore health, stamina and focus accordingly to the type of food. You gain or lose weight, changing a little your stats, but it doesn't really change anything (you never notice it). It becomes more important later in the game from a narrative perspective, but I don't want to spoil the game. In RDR2 you don't need to sleep, drink, eat, shave, cut your hair, bath, hunt and fish, you do it if you wish to role-play and live the game in an immersive way.

if this is the case you have bigger issues than this game.

I think you're becoming a little offensive now, and not understanding how game mechanics design works.

 

[Skirlasvoud]

Well I take issue with people complaining about optional features in games. I've had several discussions with members here on certain issues and there is always a group of naysayers that won't listen to reason or compromise. The game has vendors, V eats and drinks we saw that in the gameplay demo. Obviously it should give you a boast when you eat or drink if it doesn't then whats the point. keeping it optional with minor boast is very reasonable but for some people they think its chore because if the option is there they they feel obligated to do it even though the boast is very minor, if this is the case you have bigger issues than this game.

Still, I do think there is a reason behind BrokenEnglish's claim that is worth considering, and that he is therefore being reason-able himself.

As I've stated earlier, I'm of the opinion that there's a good reason for everything existing within a carefully designed game, just like in story, film, music and what have you. What is the reason for "V" stopping by a foodcar existing, if not some kind of reward? And why and how would you like the game to reward you for picking up a snack from the local foodcar? A buff of course, but what does that buff mean to you? Obviously, you yourself see value in comitting to these kinds of opportunities if the game presents them and you expect a tangible reward in the form of a buff. All of this is perfectly understandable.

But, it's just a matter of realism and your sense of easthetics, then you wouldn't need a buff. Simply roleplaying and adding to your own sense of immersion would be a reward in of itself. Instead, you do want the buff - that small moment where the game recognizes your actions with a tangible reward, if only a minor stat boost - and it is at that point that I feel, BrokenEnglish and you yourself are in agreement:

Your proposed desire to feed "V" comes with a tangible value/reward.

The disagreement comes from whether it SHOULD have value. BrokenEnglish recognizes the tangible value and opines a fear that being awarded that value could be laborious. I'd say that this is understandable, since if something has value, why not desire that value? That's the definition of value, is it not? From what I can understand, you want that tangible value to exist, but be so minor that it's existence shouldn't even matter (to others/the game). I'd say the latter is somewhat of a paradox, but I can understand the need for the game to recognize your actions. That's what games are about and a minor buff that doesn't actually matter? Why not?

In my opinion however, I feel that IF "feeding V" does have a value (or if that moment in the demo even survives into launch), that I'd like that value to tangibly feed back into the game's mechanics in a substantial way.

 

[animalfather]

@Skirlasvoud in RDR2 you don't get any boost (usually): food is used to restore health, stamina and focus accordingly to the type of food. You gain or lose weight, changing a little your stats, but it doesn't really change anything (you never notice it). It becomes more important later in the game from a narrative perspective, but I don't want to spoil the game. In RDR2 you don't need to sleep, drink, eat, shave, cut your hair, bath, hunt and fish, you do it if you wish to role-play and live the game in an immersive way.

I think you're becoming a little offensive now, and not understanding how game mechanics design works.

i apologize if thats the case. but do u honestly think the game has coke vendors and drinking them gives no stat boasts at all?
u saw the 48min trailer right? u saw the vendor giving soda pop?

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

BrokenEnglish recognizes the tangible value and opines a fear that being awarded that value could be laborious. You want that tangible value to exist, but be so minor that it's existence shouldn't even matter (to others/the game).

Well, not really. I think that if devs want to implement buffs, these need to be given by something that makes sense and doesn't affect pacing.
Food/drink gives you a bonus in HP (+10%)? How come? Health regen would make more sense (EDIT: AND it's exactly how it is in the demo, just checked it out, picture below).
Sleep gives you a bonus to exp? How come? And in particular, how long should it last? If it's 10 min IRL it's too short to be valuable so that players could feel prone to cheat the game: sleep-grind for exp-sleep-grind for exp... If it's too long (2h IRL), on the other hand, it could feel normal to have such boost at the point you, as a player, want to sleep every 2 hours. And this would affect pacing. If the game forces you to go back to the apartment using its narrative, then you'll always have the exp boost by default and at that point it'd pointless.
Drugs? that could work. cocaine increases reflexes and makes you feel full of energies (let's say in-game strenght or stamina), it's expensive and not as easy to find as food so V shouldn't have it always with herself, it's addictive and bad for your health. Cocaine could be a good temporary bonus you want to use in some cases, but at the same time you can't -and don't want to- use it continuously throughout the game. It'd be intersting to see the option of actually becoming addicted to drugs, btw.
In the demo V uses a reflex booster to obtain the karenzikov for 60 seconds. That's a great example (given you can't abuse it) of what I like: it gives V a bonus and it's not a simple +X% to a stat for Y seconds, it actually provides a new skill that makes V more effective in combat.

i apologize if thats the case. but do u honestly think the game has coke vendors and drinking them gives no stat boasts at all?
u saw the 48min trailer right? u saw the vendor giving soda pop?

I accept the apology
I think food/drinks give some kind of benefits, hopefully a health regen as it was in the demo over more unrealistic stuff:

 

[Skirlasvoud]

Yay! We're all somewhat getting along.

Thanks for the clarification. I think this is an interesting discussion.

 

[Sild]

Well, not really. I think that if devs want to implement buffs, these need to be given by something that makes sense and doesn't affect pacing.
Food/drink gives you a bonus in HP (+10%)? How come?

I know this one! A well fed individual is generally more "healthy", more resilliant to physical and psychological stress. Easily translatable to an increased resource pool (HP, stamina, etc.) from a pure role-playing perspective.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

I know this one! A well fed individual is generally more "healthy", more resilliant to physical and psychological stress. Easily translatable to an increased resource pool (HP, stamina, etc.) from a pure role-playing perspective.

But, if we really want to add HP after an healthy meal, then it still doesn't make sense that the boost is temporary. It's not like you eat salmon and green tea and all those omega-3 and antioxidants will make you feel better for 12 hours, counter high HDL and cancer. Healthy diet in-game should give you permament HP pool but only in the long run, which is not viable in a videogame. I agree, it's just a game, but why choose an unrealistic option when you can go for something that makes more sense? It's not like it costs more.
Regen can be acceptable, let's say you are recovering your energies instead of actually curing injuries.
I'd prefer HP boosts given by gear and cyberware.

 

[Skirlasvoud]

Healthy food is actually going to be somewhat challenging in this game, for as far as I've understood from the Cyberpunk 2020 world.

Actual agriculture involving greens, fish and tea - rather than synthetic crap with a minimal amount of added nutrients - is only practiced in Europe. In fact, richer American corporates import their "real" food from Europe to show off.


Considering the nuke that went off earlier in Night City's history, you'd have to consider a better-than-normal diet of anti-oxidants that might not even be available. I also insist on "V" having access to a healthy work-out that builds long-term stamina, but one that might possibly speed up metabolism into exasterbating the effects of higher-than-normal background radiation. I suggest AT LEAST a 30 minute jog each in-game day, but no more than 180, or it'll have detrimental effects on his/her stamina bar.

/plants tongue in cheek

 

[Sild]

But, if we really want to add HP after an healthy meal, then it still doesn't make sense that the boost is temporary. It's not like you eat salmon and green tea and all those omega-3 and antioxidants will make you feel better for 12 hours, counter high HDL and cancer. Healthy diet in-game should give you permament HP pool but only in the long run, which is not viable in a videogame. I agree, it's just a game, but why choose an unrealistic option when you can go for something that makes more sense? It's not like it costs more.
Regen can be acceptable, let's say you are recovering your energies instead of actually curing injuries.
I'd prefer HP boosts given by gear and cyberware.

Well, seems to me a higher health pool or faster regen are two sides of the same coin. In both cases a bonus, buff, boost. Not really an inconvenience, but something about a soda heightening regeneration doesn't sit well with me. Short energy boost due to high sugar content? Definitely. I'm guessing diabetes due to excessive use is out of the picture?

Post automatically merged: May 16, 2019

Healthy food is actually going to be somewhat challenging in this game, for as far as I've understood from the Cyberpunk 2020 world.

That's part of the reason why I believe food should be given extra attention, for immersive but also gameplay benefits. It shouldn't just be there for some extra animations so we can see V chow on a crazy expensive and (allegedly )nourishing turkey.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Short energy boost due to high sugar content? Definitely. I'm guessing diabetes due to excessive use is out of the picture?

not necessarily, "energy" feeling can come from taurine or caffeine or whatever and it takes quite a lot of years to get diabetes and it's strongly linked to DNA and environment and... and... and... I mean, devil is in details and we are all (myself in particular) exaggerating. I'll be happy if whatever devs will put in the game will make sense and won't feel like magic.
Sleeping restores health like in all games? Sure, rest and time do their job. Sleeping gives you an exp booster? Yeah, not sure about that... Cocaine gives you temporary stamina boost but removes definetely 1% of HP every time you use it? It can make sense.

 

[Sild]

Sleeping gives you an exp booster? Yeah, not sure about that...

Idk about you but I can't learn or do next to nothing if I'm tired or haven't slept since I entered my name

Seriously though, buffs are fine like you said as long as they make a modicum of sense and the drawbacks or penalties are low to nonexistent, at least in an Action RPG such as this.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Idk about you but I can't learn or do next to nothing if I'm tired or haven't slept since I entered my name

Sounds more like a debuff if you don't sleep than a buff if you sleep

 

[Sild]

Sounds more like a debuff if you don't sleep than a buff if you sleep

Indeed, and they are translating that to the type of game they're making. If it was a survival game... Well.. try out The Long Dark

 

[atomowyturysta]

How about some realistic touch: You eat food, you get shot, you're fucked

 

[Cybunknymph]

Some kind of trauma stat should be somewhere for any combat and could lag on way after depending on what happened. Bleeding should be a thing with light or heavy flow, and be based on what augmentations you have. Can it be fixed with first aid, or do we need to call trauma team? Can your wares be broken?
Drugs should have a stat for duration, dare I say an addiction stat. Some drugs are great for bursting energy and don't last long, while others may help traverse the net and last 3 hour or something. Maybe these times/stats could be mission dependent? Some missions may include lots of strategy and could take a very long time.
Food should be a consumable like drugs and It would be cool to have a "certain spot" that a character becomes a regular at. Sooo maybe info could be passed along while you eat your noodles because they owners like you...and your jacket. Btw +10health.

F***yeah I've always wanted my own favorite noodle spot.


It would be cool to set up a daily ritual that includes getting to your apartment, brushin yo teeth, pooping, showering, working out, and/or some cyberware preventive maintenance. It gets set up and rolled together and happens quick to be something that gives you "plus something" for health. Plus some more if you want to sleep, or you can sleep when your dead. These things won't make you op, but it makes sense to do in 2077.

 

[Snowflakez]

i think the issue is that time goes on really fast so you always have this sense of urgency to complete the next mission. if they dialed back on the time lets say every IRL hour is only 3 hours ingame you would get the sense that you have more time to explore and do more sidequests. i hate it when RPGs rush me to get somewhere and do something important even though i know i can do whatever i want and take as long as i want and it wont change anything i still can't do it cause im always LARPING in RPGs. Mass effect did this. Every mission was hurry up and get there before the bad guy and thats what i did, had no time to explore anything. I mean lets be honest yes this is a RPG game but its also a cyberpunk simulator something we all love and want to soak in an explore. Making time go slower and good mission design that doesn't rush us can do that. This is where doing tasks like eating or sleeping, getting a massage, hiring a prostitute or going to the store and buying the new braindance tape all add a level to the realism of the game. I mean you can imbead story into it as well. Lets say you visiting a ramen shop and everytime you are there eating the cock there greets you and tells you something interesting. maybe a tip on something so you accomplish 3 things at once. u eat, you bond, and u get info on something cool like a gang has a secret stash somewhere ect ect.

edit: if you think stopping for food or sleep becomes old and boring then a solution is that you don't lose health/abilities if you don' eat but rather you gain a small bonus to them. this way it becomes completely voluntary if you do it. i agree losing health or eyes fainting becomes tedious.

Well said, animal, I agree with all of this for the most part.

I actually enjoy the penalties Kingdom Come Deliverance gives you for not eating/sleeping, but when you remove the negative aspect, you make these little "realistic" touches all the more appealing to more people. Which is probably a good thing, as it does cater to both sides; those who want the little details and those who don't want to be bogged down by them. And if penalties are really your cup of tea (as they are mine), there's always mods, and since the framework is already there, it should be even easier to mod.

That's the major problem. The "neat ideas" may look great on the drawing board, and may even play great the first two or three times you do them. But they quickly become an EXTREMELY un-fun tedious chore.

I completely disagree here, but I understand where you're coming form.

Actually, @Rawls might like to chime in, because I know he has some interesting thoughts on the topic of "immersive" elements like this.

Red Dead Redemption 2, as an example, is filled to the brim with things like this. You can (and should, in some cases) bathe, shave, eat, drink, sleep. Some people hated that, and I understand that perspective. But I loved it, and games that are bold enough to do things like that are extremely few and far between.

What animal is suggesting is even more reasonable, and very different to the classic example of "dont do X, get Y penalty." He's saying "don't do X, nothing happens. DO X, get Y benefit."

Which, in my mind, is "objectively" good for all players, as it's something everyone can completely ignore if they so choose. The game doesn't need to nag players if there are no negative aspects.

Will it happen in 2077? Probably not. Not in the way I'm hoping, anyway. Animal is right; there will most likely be some sort of buff for eating foods or drinking alcohols, or taking certain consumables in general. In the Witcher 3, it was vitality regen. Here, not sure.

EDIT: OH, and a general side note - if we are going to be able to eat/drink, I would like if there was a BRIEF animation for it out of combat (in combat may actually be fine too, as long as it was the same length as the "hit the inhaler" animation. Any longer and you start annoying people!). Just as a nice little touch.