The Polymer One Shot and other craziness thread

[Don_Carnage]

Higher range is also the result of higher velocity because the bullet spends more time in the barrel gaining speed. Higher velocity equals more damage. (albeit probably just 1-2 points when comparing a carbine-length barrel and a compact pistol barrel)
In game-terms it's a silly point to nit-pick. I just go by the damage listed in Blackhand's.

 

[wisdom000]

Higher range is also the result of higher velocity because the bullet spends more time in the barrel gaining speed. Higher velocity equals more damage. (albeit probably just 1-2 points when comparing a carbine-length barrel and a compact pistol barrel)
In game-terms it's a silly point to nit-pick. I just go by the damage listed in Blackhand's.

Like I said mate, not noticeable enough to really matter. The problem with Blackhands is that it has a slight consistancy problem in relation to damage... hence this discussion.

For the intents and purposes of the game, .357 is about equal with 11mm, as .44 mag is about equal to 12mm. It just makes the game flow smoother.

 

[jacqsynn]

Caseless being more powerful makes no sense at all. I guess that the 2D6+3 stat is supposed to be representative of a standard .357 while the 3D6+1 is for magnums.

This is also an example of the CP 2020 core rulebook, look at the M16 under old guns never die it is a 5.56 Nato and only does 4D6 damage. While all the caseless 5.56 Nato weapons do 5D6 damage a full 1D6 more.

And yes all .357 is magnum ammo as it is a .38 Special with an extended shell casing and more ammo.

 

[Weaselwolf]

I feel like I should go back to the first couple pages and defend the Hi-Point.
I own a hi-point. It's ugly as sin, and it;s heavy as a brick...BUT

It has a fixed barrel rather than a floating barrel like most automatics. Combine this with the heavy slide and it makes for a shockingly accurate gun. The weight keeps the muzzle from jumping around and fixed barrels are generally more accurate than floating.

The weapons are designed around a very simple blowback system rather than the more complicated breech lock system most modern guns use. This makes the gun heavy (because It needs a big heavy slide to hold the thing closed) but also incredibly simple to maintain and with less complex mechanical parts it's less prone to breakage.
This makes the gun more reliable than a complicated gun full of springs and cams.

It's a lot easier to maintain too. Their own recommendation is to hose it out with powder solvent after use then run a brush down the barrel every 400 rounds or so. No need to strip it and clean it and lube everything.

Hi-Points are also made in America and come with a lifetime warranty. The only major complaint is that the firing pin is also the ejector pin, so it can wear out...but if you ask hi-point, they'll mail you several replacements for free.

They are actually rated for +P ammunition and come in up to .45 cal.
If it can shoot .45 cal +P ammo all day long then you don;t need to worry about it blowing up in your hand.

If you read reviews by actual owners you'll see a lot of positives and very few complaints about quality. Most of the "Bad rep" comes from gun snobs who assume a $150 handgun must be crap, treat the weapon like a joke and maybe fire a couple round sjust to say they did so they can go back to feeling smug about spending $800 on a glock that kills people just as well as the $150 brick.

Hi-Points are less expensive because the simple blowback design is much, much cheaper to manufacture than a recoil operated locking breech design with a dozen more moving parts. They are inexpensive but not "cheap" no corners were cut in the manufacturing process. They just use a much less expensive design.

Another American firearm company, Kel-Tek gets a lot of flack from gun snobs because they make complex recoil-operated guns for only around $300. If a Kel costs half what a 'real' gun does it must be half as good, right? Pay no mind to the fact that Ruger has copied their designs more than once. Forget that they come with a lifetime warranty. People see an inexpensive gun and they assume it's crap without actually trying it.

 

[blank_redge]

I have no problems with an inexpensive firearm, per se, as long as it is functional and reliable.

Regarding the Hi-Point, specifically: I don't think I've ever read a single favorable professional review. Of those negative reviews I've read on the Internets, the comments in such articles usually either affirm or disagree with those negative reviews.

I'm leery of any firearms that have THAT much of a disparity, between reviews and personal anecdotes from owners. As a consumer, that's a red flag for me.

 

[Weaselwolf]

Frankly, I never fully trust professional reviews, I tend to favor consumer reviews because they're real people who own and handle the things. The professional reviewers have a gun sent to them, they put a few mags through it and call it a day. They also get lots of free stuff from gun manufacturers..and if they want to keep getting free stuff they have to keep being nice to the big gun companies.

Ever wonder why no video game made in the last ten years ever seems to get less than 8/10 on most professional review sites? because if they stop giving good reviews they stop getting product to review.

I'd sooner trust the opinion of someone who relies on a particular weapon to defend their life than someone who picked it up, put a few rounds through it and sent it back.

Reviewers tend to be gun snobs. They favor the higher end manufacturers, they focus on new features and gimmicks, and pay a lot of attention to look and feel.

The Hi-Point LOOKS terrible, and it FEELS cheap...the moulded plastic grips are fairly comfortable but the feel of the ABS is too hard, too smooth, it 'feels' like it would be brittle. There's often sharp mould lines (that are easy to fix). The weapon is very heavy. The cast metal slide freaks people out (even though it;s a very strong alloy in a low-pressure role. All the high-pressure components are solid steel). They look at the price, and then they see an ugly, inexpensively produced gun and automatically write it off as "cheap" anything that goes wrong is noted and expounded upon, anything that goes right is forgotten and the reviewer gets trapped in confirmation bias.

Meanwhile when you review a gun you 'know' is high quality, you expound on its virtues and dismiss its failings.

Plus, of course, a gun reviewer who goes against popular thought is going to lose readers, which translates to revenue. Bash a big name gun like a Glock or beretta and you end up with armies of enraged brand name fanboys raising hell in your comment section and leaving your site. Bash some cheapo gun manufacturer that everyone assumes is crap and you disenfranchise some poor people who don;t buy guns often and thus don;t read your site much anyway.

Trust people who own the weapon over people who write reviews for a living.

I own a hi-point. I gave one to my father because it's simple, accurate, incredibly reliable and dirt simple to maintain. And he loves it because he can hit with it and, in his words, "If I run out of ammo, I can club someone to death with it."

All that said...I really do want a nice, expensive Beretta PX4 Storm...someday...when I have the money ;-)

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah, I don't think I trust people who shelled out money for it, conversely. They have a stake in it - whatever they paid.

Not sure I trust reviewers - depends on the reviewer. Lots of them have solid cred, though.

Best advice still is: if you can manage it, take the weapon out and use it for a bit. That'll tell you most of what you need to know.

 

[Weaselwolf]

True. Sadly even shops with their own ranges usually won;t let you test fire guns.
Fortunately my favorite shop/range has a pretty impressive pool of rental guns, including the PX4 storm I want, so I've gotten to fire it quite a bit.

Point was, I wanted to refute the assertion early on that Hi-Points were crappy and prone to exploding in your hand like a polymer one shot. From my own personal experience putting hundreds of rounds through mine, I've only had a couple failure to eject results, and those were from me 'limp wristing' and not having a proper grip on the weapon. The weapon itself performed its duty just fine.

They are rated for +P ammo (many normal guns are not) which means they are durable, they come with a forever 'no questions asked' warranty (so even if you're the third owner and you somehow manage to break the thing on purpose, they'll still fix it for free), they are easier to maintain, and fixed barrels enhance accuracy. They are inexpensive, but not "cheap"

I'm not saying it's the perfect gun or even the right gun for everyone.

I am saying, it's no Dai Lung Cybermag.
I'd call it +1 WA, with ST Reliability (Maybe even VR considering the lack of maintainence needed). The big limiter is that the manufacturers do not believe in high capacity mags. They max out at 10 rounds. And they're heavy.

 

[blank_redge]

I'd call it +1 WA, with ST Reliability (Maybe even VR considering the lack of maintainence needed).

You know you tabletop game too much, when... ;-)

 

[Don_Carnage]

Well, not all polymer 1-shots explode. Budget Arms makes polymer 1-shots, but several still rate as ST or VR reliability.

PX4 is a great gun, I've spent a lot of personal time with the 9mm version and also with a Springfield XDm 9mm. In game terms I'd list them both as Wondernines.

Keltec makes several polymer 1-shots. Their fan-base is huge and loyal, but I'm still going to call them 1-shots. I'm sure you'd meet a booster or two that will argue that the Budget Arms C-41 is the finest handgun ever made (+1 WA, VR, 10-round capacity... sound familiar?)

 

[Weaselwolf]

Well, not all polymer 1-shots explode. Budget Arms makes polymer 1-shots, but several still rate as ST or VR reliability.

Sure, but earlier in the thread people were making cracks about them hurting when they explode in your hand. Just trying to counter that with some facts.

PX4 is a great gun, I've spent a lot of personal time with the 9mm version and also with a Springfield XDm 9mm. In game terms I'd list them both as Wondernines.

On this we can agree. I shot some of my best groupings ever with a PX4. I even manged to shoot a smiley face on a piece of typing paper at 7m.

Maybe a little lopsided, but Mel would be proud. (Dropbox won't let me img link)

Keltec makes several polymer 1-shots. Their fan-base is huge and loyal, but I'm still going to call them 1-shots. I'm sure you'd meet a booster or two that will argue that the Budget Arms C-41 is the finest handgun ever made (+1 WA, VR, 10-round capacity... sound familiar?)

I'm biased as I also own a couple of Kels, but I've never experienced any technical faults with them and think they shoot just fine for what they are...ultra-compact pocket guns. I carry a PF9 in a front pocket holster every single day, nobody's ever so much as suspected it was there, and when I need it to, I can hit a torso at 21 feet with all seven rounds. Which is all I need it to do.

Also, the Budget Arms C-41 costs 600eb (which, ironically, makes it more expensive than a Betetta with a laser, or really most handguns in its class), which IMO makes it well out of the 'polymer 1-shot' cheap and dirty handgun class.
A Hi-Point retails for about $150, and a Kel will run you $250-$300

And I seem to recal a rule of thumb from back in the day that 1eb = $2 USD, so in CP terms, those guns would be half the cost.

With the custom laser module (designed to break up its outline and make it more concealable) it kinda looks like a Farscape Pulse Pistol, so I named her Winona.

 

[Don_Carnage]

A polymer -1shot is a nifty game term for Saturday-night specials. They're cheap and low-end.

 

[Weaselwolf]

Yes, I've played the game. For decades. I'm familiar with the terms.

We must have different definitions 'cheap' and 'low-end' though.
I wouldn't call Budget Arms C-41 polymer 1-shots because most of the time they cost more than other guns in the class and are generally good guns.
Seriously, look at the cost on a C-41, it costs more than almost every other gun in its class. The Auto-3? Yeah, I could see that. Cheap for its class and UR

For me, anything under 100eb with a rating of UR and/or a -1 or worse WA is a polymer 1-shot (The Budget C-13 is borderline, its low WA is mainly due to its size, it has standard reliability and is a low0caliber weapon so should be inexpensive), for heavier handguns the price goes up, but still it needs to be Unreliable to be a polymer 1-shot for me.

If you have an inexpensive, accurate, reliable gun, that's not a polymer 1-shot...that's just "A damned good buy"

 

[Sardukhar]

Regardless of how you feel about the gun, the video subtext is great!

And, yes, that is a fantastic shirt.

 

[Weaselwolf]

LOL funny video

For the record though, Kels *do* work out of the box. I never did the 'fluff and buff' on mine. I just took it to the range and put a hundred or so rounds through it every week until I became a decent shot and my gun was nice and broken in. Every gun has a break-in period where the action of using it helps smooth out rough edges. The 'fluff and buff' is an optional thing you can do to skip the break in process.

I've never had problems with any of my Kels. I've never had to "Do work" on them.

If Kel-Tec didn't make good, innovative guns why does Ruger keep knocking them off?

 

[Sardukhar]

"At least a cheap gun doesn't make it burn when you pee"


'Gun shops are one of the few places where the owners are actually happy to see me coming. Unlike massage therapists or all you can eat buffets"

And then he explains why.

Honestly, I stopped listening and just scrolled through the video reading it.


"..now I know how the hookers feel".

 

[Weaselwolf]

LOL, the subtitles were awesome.

 

[Don_Carnage]

OK, then lets forget the C-41.
The Federated Arms X-22 can get up over 100eb, is ST reliability, and is referred to as the "ubiquitous" polymer 1-shot.
The X-38 which was also fist introduced the Solo of Fortune 1 in the polymer 1-shot section is also ST reliability.
Now they're the cream of the 1-shot crop. Not hard when surrounded by Teen-Dreams and Sci-Fi Starriors, but they're still crap

Me, I'm a Malorian Arms snob. Their Night City shop will custom make you whatever you want if you got the money.
I have one player that truly believes the Armalite 44 is the greatest thing ever.

Honestly, you've be hard pressed to find an actual real-world 1-shot (though the 3D printed guns might change that). Any American firearm, so matter how low-end, still has to meet some "please don't sue us to hell" standards.

And as far as KelTecs, I remember enjoying some lovely pictures of PMR30's having the slide covers crack and break from the recoil.
That's a 1-shot.
The PLR16 is seriously fun to shoot (outside, the noise is unbearable inside) but you gotta let it rest after unloading a 30-round mag because the plastic can begin to "soften."

 

[Weaselwolf]

I haven't had a chance to see much on the PMR-30. It's new and everyone wanted one so nobody could get one.
But if it happens on a couple of guns in the entire run it;s a production fluke. If it happens to every gun it's a 1-shot...and would likely be immediately subject to recall.

Kel-Tec longarms generally have good reputations.
Everyone wants a KSG.

 

[thewarsend]

Crazy enough for you guys? It is a double barreled pistol knife..