VTMB2 Old Thread

[Sardukhar]

Here's a wild (but maybe not so wild) assumption on who the devs might be:

Hardsuit Labs

That picture kinda looks like L.A. ? Never been there, anywhere near USA in fact so maybe someone might make a better assertion.

Yeah prowling around the PDX forums and Hardsuit site, it does look like they are working on a beloved IP they are very, very excited about. And hiring like mad. One edited JPG of their animation staff showed a couple handguns on desks, so I'd guess modern - although possibly also a holdover from Blacklight.

So a modern, beloved IP from an FPS developer. Hrm.

This image seems super Vampire-y, from the ARG as you know:

https://rpgcodex.net/gallery/16678.jpg

And is from Seattle, apparently? Where HSL is located?

 

[Sild]

So a modern, beloved IP from an FPS developer. Hrm.

Hmm, probably not my first choice as a potential developer (nowhere near the list actually)... but... give some real fans the oportunity to make something they love (who also happen to be good enough to do it for a living), and they will shed sweat, blood and tears to do it right. And PDX might just let them do just that!

This image seems super Vampire-y, from the ARG as you know:

https://rpgcodex.net/gallery/16678.jpg

And is from Seattle, apparently? Where HSL is located?

Ah yes, i remember frantically searching for palm trees in that one picture, all the while sightseeing L.A. through Google Street View, trying to find streets whitout them. I learned L.A. really loves palm trees.

Seattle then? hmm it does seem to fit better than L.A. to the image on their site's home page. It definately looks.. bleaker? Could be a perfect fit for a VTM game

Also the "pier scene" looks a lot more like Seattle than.. well.. L.A. (Santa Monica)

 

[lelxrv]

Assuming it's a sequel to VtMB, what's your top 3 things that you would like to be preserved from the original?

 

[Sardukhar]

Assuming it's a sequel to VtMB, what's your top 3 things that you would like to be preserved from the original?

<Passes out trying to narrow it to 3.>

Also this: https://www.pcgamer.com/kotor-2-des...-been-working-on-star-wars-jedi-fallen-order/

The VTM bit is at the bottom. I'll quote.

"Also exciting is the promise of another "big bomb" on the way. A Twitter follower told him to wink if it's the new Vampire: The Masquerade game that may or may not be in development, to which Avellone replied, "Shhhhhh—also, the undead don't wink." "

 

[Sild]

Assuming it's a sequel to VtMB, what's your top 3 things that you would like to be preserved from the original?

Uff.. Tough, but I'll give it a go.

1 - The themes and atmosphere. Dark, dangerous, mature and mysterious.

2 - The way VtMB handled interactions with the environment. Hacking could have had a simple skill - success equation, but it also offered the option of finding the code needed through different means and manually imputing it, same with lock picking.. Skill/item/alternate path to success. No RNG (and this is a design decision prelevalent throughout all the game's mechanical aspects) . It basically acknowlages the multi faceted approach to problem solving and accurately represents it. Immersive, rewarding.

3 - Good diversity of classes and valid game mechanics that support and offer incentive for re-rolling, keeping the experience similar enough to make the second or third or tenth play through as enjoyable as the first but different enough to make you roll one more or two more or all of them.Options, maybe illusions, arguably the best I've seen in an RPG, but definitely full of flavor (Nosferatu repulsiveness, Malkavian insanity, Toreador seductivness, Ventrue pedigree, just to name some examples of dialogue variation unrelated to stat/skill distribution)

Post automatically merged: Mar 2, 2019

<Passes out trying to narrow it to 3.>

Also this: https://www.pcgamer.com/kotor-2-des...-been-working-on-star-wars-jedi-fallen-order/

The VTM bit is at the bottom. I'll quote.

"Also exciting is the promise of another "big bomb" on the way. A Twitter follower told him to wink if it's the new Vampire: The Masquerade game that may or may not be in development, to which Avellone replied, "Shhhhhh—also, the undead don't wink." "

Everything seems to point to Hardline Labs being the developers for the yet unannounced game.
That said, a quick look on their site's career tab shows multiple openings available for people experienced with Unreal Engine 4 game development.

Could be a sign the new game uses it? Or maybe leftover from Blacklight Retribution? But then, they announced they will discontinue development and support for it, so it's probably safe to assume, their new project uses it.

 

[lelxrv]

Why I made top 3, because I think devs have a right for artistic freedom. You VtMB maniacs will want everything exactly like only more. Not that I can't relate.

My top 3 would be rather similar:
1. The most number one of all - CLANS, CLANS, CLANS. Reflected in dialogue, skill set, appearance. It's must have. The more difference in gameplay - the better.
2. If clan system is well made, then this goes rather without saying - multiple approaches to all tasks.
3. If the setting allows it, bring some (or all) of the girls from the first one. Damsel and Voerman sisters.

 

[Sardukhar]

Fine. Three.

1. Everything.

2. Except Bugs

3. And new story and setting.

Hey.

Three was easier to pick than I thought!

 

[Gwydden]

Fine. Three.

1. Everything.

2. Except Bugs

3. And new story and setting.

Hey.

Three was easier to pick than I thought!

I could do without the endless dungeon crawls from the second half of Bloodlines. Other than that, we're pretty much in agreement.

 

[Sardukhar]

I could do without the endless dungeon crawls from the second half of Bloodlines. Other than that, we're pretty much in agreement.

You know, those never really bothered me that much..but then again, I don't usually replay past Chinatown. So maybe I blocked them. Also my first play was as a Toreador and they were easy.

Still, yeah. Other than the bugs, weakest part of the game.

Oh! Can you IMAGINE if it had as much love and depth as Santa Monica? <Swoon>

 

[lelxrv]

I also wasn't bothered by dungeons. By that point you accumulated plenty of skills, so it's nice to unleash them on manfools and undead. Besides, I don't think any of them compare with length and depth of the beloved Hollywood sewers.

No, I really love Hollywood sewers. It was memorable to say the least. I was lucky enough to have my first playthrough as a Ventrue, plus I, for some reason, missed doors that lead outside at certain points. So it was one long, hard and tense adventure. When I reached Nosferatu lair, it felt like the greatest place on Earth...

 

[Suhiira]

The three things I remember best about VtMB are:
1) My first attempt to play ... I bought it when it came out and was totally unable to finish the ship/sarcophagus section because of a game breaking bug.
2) My first actual play through a few months later.
3) That damn haunted hotel.

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

3) That damn haunted hotel.

Best thing when you first time play the game

 

[Gwydden]

I also wasn't bothered by dungeons. By that point you accumulated plenty of skills, so it's nice to unleash them on manfools and undead. Besides, I don't think any of them compare with length and depth of the beloved Hollywood sewers.

No, I really love Hollywood sewers. It was memorable to say the least. I was lucky enough to have my first playthrough as a Ventrue, plus I, for some reason, missed doors that lead outside at certain points. So it was one long, hard and tense adventure. When I reached Nosferatu lair, it felt like the greatest place on Earth...

My problem is that I had some previous experience with the WoD system. I knew that it was perfectly viable to roll a character focused on mental and social skills that sucked in combat and, as long as you avoided scrapes, you'd be fine. I wanted to test how good an adaptation of the tabletop Bloodlines was, with its fancy opening character sheet, and ignored any and all combat skills in favor of persuasion, seduction, hacking, stealth, and the like.

I was impressed at how well that worked out for the first half or so of the game, but after that my playthrough became a D&D hell of cheesing my way through enemies I was ill-equipped to fight. Roleplay was out the window, too, since the whole point of my character is that he was a terrible fighter and kind of a coward. So I kind of feel like the game deceived me into thinking it would, against all odds, allow me to play the sort of character I knew was possible in tabletop only to suddenly pull the rug from under my feet.

 

[lelxrv]

My problem is that I had some previous experience with the WoD system. I knew that it was perfectly viable to roll a character focused on mental and social skills that sucked in combat and, as long as you avoided scrapes, you'd be fine. I wanted to test how good an adaptation of the tabletop Bloodlines was, with its fancy opening character sheet, and ignored any and all combat skills in favor of persuasion, seduction, hacking, stealth, and the like.

I was impressed at how well that worked out for the first half or so of the game, but after that my playthrough became a D&D hell of cheesing my way through enemies I was ill-equipped to fight. Roleplay was out the window, too, since the whole point of my character is that he was a terrible fighter and kind of a coward. So I kind of feel like the game deceived me into thinking it would, against all odds, allow me to play the sort of character I knew was possible in tabletop only to suddenly pull the rug from under my feet.

Maybe it was in the plans, but given it's development... I mean, people responsible participated in making of games like Fallout, that allowed non-fighter types to finish the game.

 

[SigilFey]

My problem is that I had some previous experience with the WoD system. I knew that it was perfectly viable to roll a character focused on mental and social skills that sucked in combat and, as long as you avoided scrapes, you'd be fine. I wanted to test how good an adaptation of the tabletop Bloodlines was, with its fancy opening character sheet, and ignored any and all combat skills in favor of persuasion, seduction, hacking, stealth, and the like.

I was impressed at how well that worked out for the first half or so of the game, but after that my playthrough became a D&D hell of cheesing my way through enemies I was ill-equipped to fight. Roleplay was out the window, too, since the whole point of my character is that he was a terrible fighter and kind of a coward. So I kind of feel like the game deceived me into thinking it would, against all odds, allow me to play the sort of character I knew was possible in tabletop only to suddenly pull the rug from under my feet.

Honestly, while I would LOOOVE a game to include that level of role-playing consideration, I think it's almost guaranteed to be inefficient. At least, not for a new title in a recognized franchise or continuation of an established series. I'd say that most players, just talking sheer numbers here, will either a.) focus on combat or b.) want solid combat as an option. Now, it comes down to investment of time and resources during development.

Is it worth it to stretch the role-playing into those other areas at the expense of really honing a combat system? Will enough players appreciate the alternative forms of play and/or forgive less fluent combat to have those other options? Honestly, I don't think so. At least, not right away. I think it would result in a response that was both critically and financially lukewarm at best, and it could be a lot worse. Tough sell.

However, to take a smaller budget, use an existing engine, and keep development focused on a totally original IP or spin-off of a popular franchise, then build a title that put most of its effort into expanding non-violent gameplay? That would probably work great! If it released in the $19.99 range and did well, that's proof in the pudding that such gameplay considerations are worthwhile. (Even then, though, unless it rocked the charts and brought in hundreds of percent more profit than anticipated...good luck convincing investors and producers that it's worth pouring a larger budget into...)

 

[Sild]

Honestly, while I would LOOOVE a game to include that level of role-playing consideration, I think it's almost guaranteed to be inefficient. At least, not for a new title in a recognized franchise or continuation of an established series. I'd say that most players, just talking sheer numbers here, will either a.) focus on combat or b.) want solid combat as an option. Now, it comes down to investment of time and resources during development.

Is it worth it to stretch the role-playing into those other areas at the expense of really honing a combat system? Will enough players appreciate the alternative forms of play and/or forgive less fluent combat to have those other options? Honestly, I don't think so. At least, not right away. I think it would result in a response that was both critically and financially lukewarm at best, and it could be a lot worse. Tough sell.

Yea, i agree it pretty much HAS to do both with emphasis on combat, at least that does seem like the most sensible approach.

If there's any type of game format appropriate for that kind of diversity, it's definitely VtMB format (hub based, hand-crafted, 0 grinding, few but overarching quests, basically a finely crafted, controled environment). By now we know it didn't achieve all it set out to achieve mostly due to a very troubled development cycle.

But i wouldn't call it inefficient, it's validity has been proven, more recently through games like Fallout 3, 4 even though i wouldn't say they were the main selling point. But in a game like Deus Ex or Bloodlines? Non-combat options are kinda integral to the design. This is what people might be expecting as well, since the previous games in the franchise had them (didn't play VtM:R so might be wrong on this one).

 

[SigilFey]

Yea, i agree it pretty much HAS to do both with emphasis on combat, at least that does seem like the most sensible approach.

If there's any type of game format appropriate for that kind of diversity, it's definitely VtMB format (hub based, hand-crafted, 0 grinding, few but overarching quests, basically a finely crafted, controled environment). By now we know it didn't achieve all it set out to achieve mostly due to a very troubled development cycle.

But i wouldn't call it inefficient, it's validity has been proven, more recently through games like Fallout 3, 4 even though i wouldn't say they were the main selling point. But in a game like Deus Ex or Bloodlines? Non-combat options are kinda integral to the design. This is what people might be expecting as well, since the previous games in the franchise had them (didn't play VtM:R so might be wrong on this one).

"Inefficient" insofar as all of that lovely development would be put into options that have a great chance of being ignored or under-appreciated. But again, only if the title is marketed to a "mass audience". Instead, I'd rather focus on a title that's marketed to the niche audience that would be most likely popularize it.

Some of the games you mention like the original Deus Ex, VtM: Bloodlines, and I'll add Fallout 1 and 2, Ultima 4-7, the Gothic series, pretty much anything by Spiderweb Software -- in short, the "old school" CRPGs -- were never marketed to the "mainstream". There was no "mainstream", really, when most of these games were made. There was a budding market for games, and developers targeted a genre. I'd argue that the Action genre is what made games "mainstream". Naturally, everyone started putting Action mechanics in everything, because they knew it would sell the most.

Nowadays, I think the entire industry has both expanded and matured enough that there are plenty of ways to be successful without worrying about "dominating the market". Like any business, all you need are the loyal patrons that keep you going. I say a title that offered such role-playing would be very successful. Just not #1.

For the new Vampire game (whatever it may be), I agree it would benefit a lot by exploring such ground, but I doubt it would be the equal of the combat systems. Obviously, anything VtM would wind up generating instant mass-appeal, and the masses would probably be in an uproar if the combat wasn't stellar.

 

[Sild]

"Inefficient" insofar as all of that lovely development would be put into options that have a great chance of being ignored or under-appreciated. But again, only if the title is marketed to a "mass audience". Instead, I'd rather focus on a title that's marketed to the niche audience that would be most likely popularize it.

Definately. I just assumed it was that kind of nishe game since the rest of the games in the franchise can be safely categorized as such and some semblance of continuity would make sense, ofc, with a healthy (even necesary) dose of "modernization". But non-combat options shouldn't be considered obsolete and thus become expendable, if continuation is indeed a goal of theirs.

Nowadays, I think the entire industry has both expanded and matured enough that there are plenty of ways to be successful without worrying about "dominating the market". Like any business, all you need are the loyal patrons that keep you going. I say a title that offered such role-playing would be very successful. Just not #1.

Yep, PDX int is a living, breathing example of that. Goes to show nishe can be profitable without relying on mass audience (although they have shifted a bit toward more mainstream features, as mainstream as somethin like Imperator Rome or HOI4 can be called that is), and then some.

For the new Vampire game (whatever it may be), I agree it would benefit a lot by exploring such ground, but I doubt it would be the equal of the combat systems. Obviously, anything VtM would wind up generating instant mass-appeal, and the masses would probably be in an uproar if the combat wasn't stellar.

Aye, i personally hope it won't turn out to be a Dark Souls "clone" combat-wise. It's starting to get old, and it didn't really click for me, maybe it was the crappy mouse n' keyboard controls, idk.

 

[Sardukhar]

Aye, i personally hope it won't turn out to be a Dark Souls "clone" combat-wise. It's starting to get old, and it didn't really click for me, maybe it was the crappy mouse n' keyboard controls, idk.

I felt the same! Although I enjoyed the combat's lethality, it always felt slippery and clumsy.

Preferred a simpler system that was exciting. Quite liked Bloodlines combat, really, although yes, it could definitely use an upgrade.

 

[Sild]

<clip>it always felt slippery and clumsy.

Yea, basically my gripe with it. That and hanging loom of imminent death with every goon i encountered.

Not very fitting for a supernatural being such as a vampire. Yes i know they're not anywhere close to invincible in the lore (the young'uns especially), but a relatively powerful vampire (older/stronger bloodline/combat oriented) could cleave through dozens of standard low caliber handgun users.