Hamilton1358;n8103230 said:
I don't think anyone is at war here and it's not that I don't understand what you are saying, I simply disagree. I see people in the game not liking Yen as part of her characterization. Yennefer is not a likable person to the people who don't know her well. It was like that in the books and it's like that in the games(even Letho in TW2 speaks not too kindly of her). It's unrealistic to expect random people to like someone who, let's be honest isn't nice for the sake of being nice. It doesn't mean that Yen is less worthy or that the point of those comments is to make her look bad.
The game has plenty of moments that show her other side and her love, affection and loyalty to those she holds dear. Geralt knows her, Ciri knows her, and that is all that matters to Yen imo. What opinion, Dijkstra, Lambert or random peasants have of her is irrelevant, both to her and Geralt. No matter how much people say bad things about Yen to him or mosck him, like Keira or Cerys, he knows they are wrong, he knows the real Yen and it doesn't affect his opinion of her. I even like the contrast it shows, I think it adds to Yen's character.
You have this woman that no one seems to like, yet we as the player get to see her other, more caring side, her real self that she only shows to the selected group of people and that is what makes the scenes where she displays that even more impacting. Yen saves her love for those that matter and doesn't give a fuck about the rest and that is reflected in both her attitude toward Geralt and Ciri as well as the attitude random people may have of her.
In the end, you feel like Triss was forced on you, you don't like her and some feel the exact same about Yen. The point is, you can't expect Geralt to behave exactly the way you want him to at all times, but waht is important is that we can all make a choice. It's not like you were forced to retire to Kovir with Triss, and Triss is Geralt's friend and ally regardless of the romance decisions each player can make. Even in the books Geralt is forgiving toward Triss, so to suddenly expect him to start treating badly is not in character for him, especially after all she's done for him. I completely agree with your last sentence, but I don't think CDPR did that with either Triss or Yen.
"At war" is obviously an overstatement, what I mean though, is that I didn't want the thread to derail into one of those many Triss VS Yennefer (as characters) threads, it was meant to be a thread about how different is the approach CDPR used to characterize Yen compared to that used to characterize Triss in the eyes of Geralt/the player.
You are talking from the perspective of those who have read the books and have played the previous games and I agree about the things you say about Yennefer and how her true self is known to Geralt. There is, though, a great amount of players who don't know who Yennefer is, why she is abrasive and sarcastic, and what she's like in regards to her relationship with Geralt and Ciri (probably the most part of those who play on PS4).
Having said that, the game starts with a dream and it introduces us to Yennefer. It doesn't say much about them (and Ciri), we only know that Geralt is on her tracks. Finally we find her (she find us) and we have the chance to talk to her after approximately two years being apart (Witcher 1 & 2 happen in the meantime). We talk to her but there's no way we get to know her. They talk about Ciri, share an innocent kiss and then they part. In the meantime, until their next encounter, I played for 40 hours, I completed Triss' quest (level 12 needed) and went to Skellige once it was the right time to do so (level 16 needed to get there). Obvioulsy, if you follow the story/chronological order to complete the quests, you'd probably end hooking up with Triss even before meeting Yen again. Before you meet Yen in Skellige (remember, you may be one of those players who know nothing about her) a man welcomes you on the shore of Ard Skellig and he - guess what - doesn't say kind words about Yennefer. So, tell me honestly, you as a player who has no clue, what do you expect when for the nth time a random character and your/Geralt's friends talks like this about a character you don't know? I felt like CDPR didn't think much about giving us the chance to know both Yen and Triss before deciding to settle with Yen or Triss. Either your Geralt hooks up with Triss BEFORE we know Yen, or we dump Triss before knowing Yen. Either way you may end with the wrong person (or both) not because you didn't choose properly, but because you didn't know what you were doing.
That's what I'm saying. An unware player who hears such "kind" words about Yennefer, words which contrast with the overthetop sweet appearance of Triss, what do you think will said player choose?
I don't want "my" Geralt to treat Triss badly, I just wanted to have the chance to simply "break up" with her, I don't want to drag their story further and - above all - I don't want Geralt to act like he cares for her as a lover (see for instance when he is jealous, during the party).
sv3672;n8110560 said:
The game does not overlook any faults that are actually relevant to its story, which is told from the protagonist's point of view. Those who want to learn more about past events can always play the previous games and/or read the books, Wild Hunt does not spend much time on providing recaps of any content that already exists in its prequels. And since the game does establish that Geralt himself (who you are playing as) does not hold a grudge for Triss' alleged (and in my opinion somewhat overblown on internet forums) "crimes" from the past, and that all of that was already discussed between them off-screen, it is simply no longer relevant enough to merit more exposition than the few lines of dialogue that already acknowledge those events.
By the way, Triss and Dandelion have roughly the same amount of dialogue in the first two games, so it is not like Dandelion did not have the opportunity to talk if he wanted to.
Those who have played the previous games know a story where Triss is at fault for exploiting Geralt's amnesia. Those who haven't play the games get to know (and hook up with) Triss before they have a chance to properly be introduced to Yennefer, and every word spoken by various NPCs about her is unfair.
As I said, the fact that in two games Yennefer was never discussed in a decent manner was the big elephant in the room, and again (again and again), I'm also discussing how badly the game manages to ignore her big time, whether it is Dandelion ignoring her or Triss. Dandelion though, doesn't take advantage of Geralt's situation, Triss does. If you don't see the difference, I don't know what else I can say.
sv3672;n8110560 said:
It is Geralt's character who is making her look less guilty, because in his perception she was indeed helpful, and she did in fact help him recover his memories once he seriously asked. It would also not have been relevant to the subject of that particular conversation with Regis to tell more - they are talking mainly about themselves, Triss is mentioned only tangentially.
It's CDPR that are making her look less guilty not giving Geralt (as my avatar) the chance to say something different. I don't expect Geralt to be mean, I expect him to act according to the decisions he (me) took during the previous games; that is, in my case, to be NOT in love with her and don't pretend to ever be in love with her. As I previously pointed out, during the party he acts like he is jealous of a Triss lover. Seriously?
sv3672;n8110560 said:
Since Yennefer does not know much about the details and Geralt himself does not shift the blame towards Triss, I do not think her behavior is unrealistic. She only knows that they slept together for up to a year, and that can make anyone jealous. And Geralt does in fact have some responsibility in this matter, no one forced him into the relationship, and he should have known about the risk that he might have been cheating on someone from his "previous life".
Oh, please, she can read his mind and does so a couple of times during the game. I don't expect him to reply to her accusation with "It wasn't me! It was CDPR that came up with the - sorry - half-a**ed idea of the amnesia, I really thought that Triss was you!". And - I'm tired of writing this, seriously - as a player who chose Shani over Triss, I was quite annoyed to find out that the relationship between Geralt and Triss was a thing in AoK. So, yes, Triss was forced on me/Geralt.
sv3672;n8110560 said:
??? Just because you as the player do not like the scene, it does not mean that Geralt's character was "raped".
It's not because I don't like the scene, it's because Geralt, as my avatar, didn't want to have any sexual/romantic intercourse with her. It might sound an overstatement (and I don't want to diminish the relevance this crime has in real life), but that's what it is, rape.
Or, to get back on track, a way CDPR forced Triss on Geralt and, consequently, on me.
sv3672;n8110560 said:
It can be similar because there is no game that lets the player decide over everything, that would be more of a life simulator. Even in a game where choices are important, some of the narrative is fixed and the player has no control over it. And those parts are indeed like a novel or movie. Can you decide that you simply do not care about Ciri and will not bother searching for her? Of course, no. The Witcher 3 is an RPG with a pre-defined protagonist, which is somewhere between a novel and a "do everything you want" type of game.
As explained above, the game is not an entirely linear story, but it is not like a Bethesda RPG, either. How Geralt relates to the other main characters, you are given choice over that only within certain limits.
You keep insisting that I pretend to have every choice and plot patterns possible. It's not that. I expect, though, that the choice I made during the previous games have some importance in the game/s that follow. And, mind you, I'm not talking about the destiny of Temeria and Redania (Anais La Vallette anybody?), I'm talking about a small thing such as Geralt's romances and Geralt's reactions to the people around him.
sv3672;n8110560 said:
It might be mistreatment by the characters insulting her, but not by the game if they have a believable (even if not necessarily morally right) reason to insult her. Sorceresses and other kinds of "freaks" are often insulted in the world of The Witcher, the same applies to Geralt himself, and Triss is also called a "witch" by someone at least once in all three games.
"Triss is also called a witch by someone at least once in three games". Yennefer is called in many insulting ways many times, in one game and not just by some ignorant and superstitious folk, but by those very same "freaks" who supposedly know how prejudice can hurt a person (Vesemir in particular) and know how important Geralt was for Yennefer and vice versa. Plus, Yennefer was very respectful of religion (especially in Skellige she acted very considerately in regards to people and religion. She was highly respected by the priestess there) and yet CDPR decided to make her act like she has no respect for anything and anybody (and both in the books and in the game, she was searching for Ciri).
sv3672;n8110560 said:
Dijkstra says it himself: "Your other lover - not so much. She's cuddled up to Nilfgaard, and you'll follow her, as always. And one day we might find ourselves on opposite sides of the barricade". He wants Geralt to choose Triss, rather than Yennefer, because he thinks (rightly or not, it does not matter from his point of view) the latter is allied with Nilfgaard. Again, the game does not revolve around selling romance choices to the player, it just shows its characters with all of their own biases, they do not always have to be honest, and sometimes they can even be outright wrong.
Again, Geralt too is "allied" with Nilfgaard, and since Geralt and Yennefer are allied with Nilfgaard not for Nilfgaad's sake but for Ciri's, if Dijkstra expects Geralt to cut off his connection with Nilfgaard just because of Triss, he is stupid, and we know that stupid Dijkstra is not.
sv3672;n8110560 said:
It also includes content that may look like it is pushing the player towards Yennefer, such as all the various references and NPCs talking about their past with Geralt, Priscilla's song, and so on, but these are again just the characters acting according to the given situation and how CDPR imagined them. I think it is generally easier to enjoy the game without looking for a "team" conspiracy on the developers' part in everything, there is usually a more reasonable explanation.
Conspiracy? I'm merely talking about unbalanced situations here. Priscilla's song was just a reminder - or a hint for those who know nothing about the previous games and the books - about Geralt's story, and Geralt's reaction is strangely neutral... neutral compared to the reaction he has at the party, with Triss (yes, that).
sv3672;n8110560 said:
Well, if that is how you see it, there is not much that can be done about that, I disagree but I do not think I would be able to change your already established opinion. Maybe The Witcher 3 is just not the right type of game for you, and others with a player created character would be better, but that is only a guess. In any case, virtually any game with a story includes events and characters that are "forced" on the player. Even in something like Skyrim, there is a mostly linear main story that the player has to follow or at best temporarily ignore while doing side quests instead. One could also complain that Yennefer and Ciri are forced on the player and that it is an antithesis of role playing, but I do not do that now for the reasons already explained. In the end, the best solution might be for a future Witcher game to start over with a clean slate and new main characters.
Yes, it's only a guess, and a wrong one. As I already stated I don't pretend that my Geralt acts according to what I wish or according to how I feel towards something; I do expect though that I am given the chance to follow a pattern throughout three games, a consistent pattern that doesn't include actions, reaction, words of "accidental" forgetfulness that don't fit with what was established before, be it romances, characters or events.