Was this necessary? (Another Yennefer thread)

[sv3672]

Hypothetically, if Ciri calls Yennefer "Mother" or if Yennefer calls Ciri "daughter" (see Stygga Castle) that it would affect the player's romance choice?

Why do you think the developers would even have cared about that? They had no issues including other content that could also affect the player's romance choice towards Yennefer, and if they really wanted to emphasize the Yennefer/Ciri relationship while also caring about "romance equality", it would have been possible to achieve that in other ways.

Even placing romance aside, the relationship between Ciri and Yennefer was always an important aspect of the lore/backstory.

As I might have mentioned it before, the way the game approaches storytelling is that it does not spend much time on exposition of backstory, it focuses on what is directly relevant to the story in its own time frame. Understanding that might also explain a few of its other alleged flaws. The family concept is established already in the prologue in Geralt's dream, and you are also shown later how much Yennefer as an adoptive mother cares about Ciri. The time spent on scenes that show the mother-daughter relationship might not be much, but they are there, so players who pay attention should know about it. But Ciri becoming independent is also an important element of the story (I think in a sequel with her the adoptive parents would not play a large role), so one can expect the relationship to be somewhat different from the books to begin with.

Why is there such an emphasis on the relationship between Vesemir and Ciri? To my knowledge he was never that close to her and never interacted with her other than in Blood of Elves.

The relationship between Vesemir and Ciri is important because his death plays a major part in the story and Ciri's development. Even then, there is not much interaction between them in the game.

I made a reddit post about this and I don't think they're just "superficial similarities" (BOOK SPOILERS BELOW):

While you do have a point regarding the Witcher 1 scene (admittedly, a number of lines in that game were "borrowed", not only from Yennefer, but also from other characters), the others are still rather superficial. In a saga that is this long things like a confrontation with Philippa, a rescue or torture scene, or a sex scene in some baths are hardly unique enough that they could not happen again with a different character by chance. And some small bits being inspired by the books can happen (even unintentionally) without detracting from the originality of the character overall.

 

[eloise]

[...]

I started the thread talking about how the game/s was/were designed, it was not my intention to start for the umpteenth time the tirade about Triss which, to be completely honest, I got fed up with long ago.
It is how the game manages to overlook at her faults that's annoying, period. It has nothing to do with "blame". Clearly the fact that Yennefer was never or was superficially mentioned during the first two games was always the big pink elephant in the room. Since you, as the player, and Geralt spend more time with her than with Dandelion, the thing becomes more apparent, especially because Geralt has a relationship with her.

I think the Regis line is there regardless, I think I saw it on my Yen playthrough too, but it is missable if you choose different dialogue options http://imgur.com/RP3W0QP

Honestly, I don't remember. Either way, again, the games tries to make her look less guilty by telling you how useful and helping she was, never the other way round. As you said Yennefer too considers Geralt responsible for hooking up with Triss, do I need to write again how the writers decided to water down Triss' responsibilities?

It may be an RPG, but you are only given options that the writers of the game thought the character could possibly choose. And how they imagine his character obviously cannot meet the different expectations of all players. If they already decided for you that he forgives, then there is not much that can be done about that. Even in TW2 he does not make much of a deal of it after he first finds out about Yennefer at the end of the prologue.

Oh, really? I didn't think about that from the perspective of the writer giving me options and not the options just appearing out of nowehere, thank you for the explanation.

The main choice that decides between a Triss or Shani romance in TW1 is who you give Alvin to. If you took Alvin to Triss, that was your choice, it was not forced by the game. One might say that a relationship with Triss is "forced" on the player at the beginning of the second game, but it is not the same as it being forced on Geralt's character. .

My romance choice was Shani, my choice regarding Alvin' safety was Triss for the reason I exlplained. How Alvin's integrity translates to Triss raping Geralt is beyond my comprehension. Unless it was poorly designed. Was it poorly designed? Yes it was, and that's what I'm talking about since I opened the thread.

It is ultimately no different from how the books "force" Yennefer on him, in the games, you have choices over some story paths, but much of their content is still pre-written and linear. There is also no choice over Geralt and Triss breaking up between TW2 and TW3, even if the player never makes any decisions in the first two games that would point in that direction, so at least I do not see the alleged bias on CDPR's part..

Not sure if you are serious... how can a novel - where the reader has no power to influence the events - be similiar to a game which purpose is to let the player decide his patterns and relationships?

It is only Geralt's perception that matters, as imagined by CDPR. You are of course entitled to hate Triss, but he views her at least as a friend, and that is just how the games are written, regardless of any romance choices (although he does always have a relationship with Triss after the first game until the end of the prologue of the second one). He can by all means choose to return to Yennefer but still remain on good terms with Triss..

Jeez, it's the fact that CDPR didn't allow me to chose differently that I'm discussing. I wish there was a wider range of responses, I wish I could ignore Triss if I wanted to. Instead what do I have?
I have Geralt that gets angry when Triss is tortured, I have Geralt that shows jealousy when Triss mentions a former lover. I have Geralt that doesn't even try to resolve the situation and drags this pitiful charade till the ending of the game. It's a RPG - role effing playing game - if I wanted a linear and cinematic story I would be in some Uncharted forum, not here.

Can you show some evidence of this? As far as I know, by that time Triss is no longer associated with the Lodge in any way, nor do I recall any plans on her part in games to control Ciri. In fact, she returns to Novigrad because it is Yennefer's idea after the battle of Kaer Morhen to contact the few remaining members of the Lodge to help defeating the Wild Hunt..

Nope, my mistake. I wrongly remember Triss participating during Philippa, Margarita and Triss meeting.

I do not see any evidence that CDPR treated Yennefer "badly" in the game (on the contrary, her content in TW3 is very well made in my opinion, it even won awards), nor of any unwritten rule that says that Triss is the right choice. As it often happens with adaptations that do not just retell the same story, fans of the originals can be disappointed that the result is not like what they have imagined. People who have played the previous games but did not read the books also complained about bias towards Yennefer. In the end, some characters were changed to various extents, and some things could have been written and implemented better (which goes both ways), but overall I do not think there is a real bias..

If random people insulting Yennefer is not mistreatment, I don't know what mistreatment is.

By the way, Dijkstra being unsatisfied with Geralt not leaving to Kovir with Triss is because of his political plans, not everything in the game revolves around advertising romance choices. The same applies to Lambert and other characters, they do not like Yennefer, but it is not like her personality as visible to them (not you or Geralt) is particularly likable. The game just "simulates" the characters with all of their own biases and agendas, and again this goes both ways..

The option clearly was not Geralt sailing to Kovir with Triss, it was Triss staying in Novigrad with Geralt. I don't know how that can affect Dijkstra's political shenanigans.


Lastly, as I said above, I don't want to talk about Triss*, I have had enough of Triss (in case it wasn't already clear) and the Triss vs Yen infinite war. I started this thread with the only purpose to vent my frustration the moment I noticed that Yennefer was once again portrayed as a *itch, it seems that just Samiel27 understood what I meant to say.
I may sound too harsh in regards to CDPR, and for this I apologize; the moment you love a piece of art dearly and the moment you realize that there's no way to fix small things that ruined part of the experience, is the moment your are overwhelmed with conflicting emotions.


*It isn't and it never was about Triss per se, it was about Triss as the quintessential representation of the character that in games has the sole purpose to cater to some players' desires, the character that is pushed to the gamer. Forcing events or characters into the player is the antithesis of what role playing is or should be.

 

[Hamilton1358]

I made a reddit post about this and I don't think they're just "superficial similarities"

I've read your post on reddit and imo the similarities are superficial with the exception of TW1.

I agree as far as TW1 is concerned, and Triss borrows direct lines from Yen and Philippa in that game on few occasions(noting more pathetic than a sorceress in tears comes to mind) and she is a strange combination of several sorceresses, so as far as the first game is concerned, you do have a point. But even in the first game she does enough stuff to separate her from others. She has dozens of unique scenes with Geralt.

The rest however is rather superficial and the context in which those scenes happen is completely different than the context in which they happen in the books.

Yen helps people in the books therefore Triss helping people in the games is a Yen rip off? I don't think so.

I see no resemblance between the Stygga scene and Triss saving scene other than Geralt saves someone. Similar with the torture.

Triss asking Philippa for help fits in the broader narrative of the game, with Geralt being framed for murder and Triss working alongside him to help resolve the matter.

I think she has a unique character arc and a completely different personality than Yen so I really don't see how Triss doesn't have a unique characterization when we look at all the games, and especially 2 and 3.

Lastly, as I said above, I don't want to talk about Triss*, I have had enough of Triss (in case it wasn't already clear) and the Triss vs Yen infinite war. I started this thread with the only purpose to vent my frustration the moment I noticed that Yennefer was once again portrayed as a *itch

I don't think anyone is at war here and it's not that I don't understand what you are saying, I simply disagree. I see people in the game not liking Yen as part of her characterization. Yennefer is not a likable person to the people who don't know her well. It was like that in the books and it's like that in the games(even Letho in TW2 speaks not too kindly of her). It's unrealistic to expect random people to like someone who, let's be honest isn't nice for the sake of being nice. It doesn't mean that Yen is less worthy or that the point of those comments is to make her look bad.

The game has plenty of moments that show her other side and her love, affection and loyalty to those she holds dear. Geralt knows her, Ciri knows her, and that is all that matters to Yen imo. What opinion, Dijkstra, Lambert or random peasants have of her is irrelevant, both to her and Geralt. No matter how much people say bad things about Yen to him or mosck him, like Keira or Cerys, he knows they are wrong, he knows the real Yen and it doesn't affect his opinion of her. I even like the contrast it shows, I think it adds to Yen's character.

You have this woman that no one seems to like, yet we as the player get to see her other, more caring side, her real self that she only shows to the selected group of people and that is what makes the scenes where she displays that even more impacting. Yen saves her love for those that matter and doesn't give a fuck about the rest and that is reflected in both her attitude toward Geralt and Ciri as well as the attitude random people may have of her.

In the end, you feel like Triss was forced on you, you don't like her and some feel the exact same about Yen. The point is, you can't expect Geralt to behave exactly the way you want him to at all times, but waht is important is that we can all make a choice. It's not like you were forced to retire to Kovir with Triss, and Triss is Geralt's friend and ally regardless of the romance decisions each player can make. Even in the books Geralt is forgiving toward Triss, so to suddenly expect him to start treating badly is not in character for him, especially after all she's done for him. I completely agree with your last sentence, but I don't think CDPR did that with either Triss or Yen.

 

[sv3672]

It is how the game manages to overlook at her faults that's annoying, period. It has nothing to do with "blame". Clearly the fact that Yennefer was never or was superficially mentioned during the first two games was always the big pink elephant in the room. Since you, as the player, and Geralt spend more time with her than with Dandelion, the thing becomes more apparent, especially because Geralt has a relationship with her.

The game does not overlook any faults that are actually relevant to its story, which is told from the protagonist's point of view. Those who want to learn more about past events can always play the previous games and/or read the books, Wild Hunt does not spend much time on providing recaps of any content that already exists in its prequels. And since the game does establish that Geralt himself (who you are playing as) does not hold a grudge for Triss' alleged (and in my opinion somewhat overblown on internet forums) "crimes" from the past, and that all of that was already discussed between them off-screen, it is simply no longer relevant enough to merit more exposition than the few lines of dialogue that already acknowledge those events.

By the way, Triss and Dandelion have roughly the same amount of dialogue in the first two games, so it is not like Dandelion did not have the opportunity to talk if he wanted to.

Honestly, I don't remember. Either way, again, the games tries to make her look less guilty by telling you how useful and helping she was, never the other way round.

It is Geralt's character who is making her look less guilty, because in his perception she was indeed helpful, and she did in fact help him recover his memories once he seriously asked. It would also not have been relevant to the subject of that particular conversation with Regis to tell more - they are talking mainly about themselves, Triss is mentioned only tangentially.

As you said Yennefer too considers Geralt responsible for hooking up with Triss, do I need to write again how the writers decided to water down Triss' responsibilities?

Since Yennefer does not know much about the details and Geralt himself does not shift the blame towards Triss, I do not think her behavior is unrealistic. She only knows that they slept together for up to a year, and that can make anyone jealous. And Geralt does in fact have some responsibility in this matter, no one forced him into the relationship, and he should have known about the risk that he might have been cheating on someone from his "previous life".

My romance choice was Shani, my choice regarding Alvin' safety was Triss for the reason I exlplained. How Alvin's integrity translates to Triss raping Geralt is beyond my comprehension.

??? Just because you as the player do not like the scene, it does not mean that Geralt's character was "raped".

Not sure if you are serious... how can a novel - where the reader has no power to influence the events - be similiar to a game which purpose is to let the player decide his patterns and relationships?

It can be similar because there is no game that lets the player decide over everything, that would be more of a life simulator. Even in a game where choices are important, some of the narrative is fixed and the player has no control over it. And those parts are indeed like a novel or movie. Can you decide that you simply do not care about Ciri and will not bother searching for her? Of course, no. The Witcher 3 is an RPG with a pre-defined protagonist, which is somewhere between a novel and a "do everything you want" type of game.

Jeez, it's the fact that CDPR didn't allow me to chose differently that I'm discussing. I wish there was a wider range of responses, I wish I could ignore Triss if I wanted to. Instead what do I have?
I have Geralt that gets angry when Triss is tortured, I have Geralt that shows jealousy when Triss mentions a former lover. I have Geralt that doesn't even try to resolve the situation and drags this pitiful charade till the ending of the game. It's a RPG - role effing playing game - if I wanted a linear and cinematic story I would be in some Uncharted forum, not here.

As explained above, the game is not an entirely linear story, but it is not like a Bethesda RPG, either. How Geralt relates to the other main characters, you are given choice over that only within certain limits.

If random people insulting Yennefer is not mistreatment, I don't know what mistreatment is.

It might be mistreatment by the characters insulting her, but not by the game if they have a believable (even if not necessarily morally right) reason to insult her. Sorceresses and other kinds of "freaks" are often insulted in the world of The Witcher, the same applies to Geralt himself, and Triss is also called a "witch" by someone at least once in all three games.

The option clearly was not Geralt sailing to Kovir with Triss, it was Triss staying in Novigrad with Geralt. I don't know how that can affect Dijkstra's political shenanigans.

Dijkstra says it himself: "Your other lover - not so much. She's cuddled up to Nilfgaard, and you'll follow her, as always. And one day we might find ourselves on opposite sides of the barricade". He wants Geralt to choose Triss, rather than Yennefer, because he thinks (rightly or not, it does not matter from his point of view) the latter is allied with Nilfgaard. Again, the game does not revolve around selling romance choices to the player, it just shows its characters with all of their own biases, they do not always have to be honest, and sometimes they can even be outright wrong.

It also includes content that may look like it is pushing the player towards Yennefer, such as all the various references and NPCs talking about their past with Geralt, Priscilla's song, and so on, but these are again just the characters acting according to the given situation and how CDPR imagined them. I think it is generally easier to enjoy the game without looking for a "team" conspiracy on the developers' part in everything, there is usually a more reasonable explanation.

*It isn't and it never was about Triss per se, it was about Triss as the quintessential representation of the character that in games has the sole purpose to cater to some players' desires, the character that is pushed to the gamer. Forcing events or characters into the player is the antithesis of what role playing is or should be.

Well, if that is how you see it, there is not much that can be done about that, I disagree but I do not think I would be able to change your already established opinion. Maybe The Witcher 3 is just not the right type of game for you, and others with a player created character would be better, but that is only a guess. In any case, virtually any game with a story includes events and characters that are "forced" on the player. Even in something like Skyrim, there is a mostly linear main story that the player has to follow or at best temporarily ignore while doing side quests instead. One could also complain that Yennefer and Ciri are forced on the player and that it is an antithesis of role playing, but I do not do that now for the reasons already explained. In the end, the best solution might be for a future Witcher game to start over with a clean slate and new main characters.

 

[eloise]

I don't think anyone is at war here and it's not that I don't understand what you are saying, I simply disagree. I see people in the game not liking Yen as part of her characterization. Yennefer is not a likable person to the people who don't know her well. It was like that in the books and it's like that in the games(even Letho in TW2 speaks not too kindly of her). It's unrealistic to expect random people to like someone who, let's be honest isn't nice for the sake of being nice. It doesn't mean that Yen is less worthy or that the point of those comments is to make her look bad.

The game has plenty of moments that show her other side and her love, affection and loyalty to those she holds dear. Geralt knows her, Ciri knows her, and that is all that matters to Yen imo. What opinion, Dijkstra, Lambert or random peasants have of her is irrelevant, both to her and Geralt. No matter how much people say bad things about Yen to him or mosck him, like Keira or Cerys, he knows they are wrong, he knows the real Yen and it doesn't affect his opinion of her. I even like the contrast it shows, I think it adds to Yen's character.

You have this woman that no one seems to like, yet we as the player get to see her other, more caring side, her real self that she only shows to the selected group of people and that is what makes the scenes where she displays that even more impacting. Yen saves her love for those that matter and doesn't give a fuck about the rest and that is reflected in both her attitude toward Geralt and Ciri as well as the attitude random people may have of her.

In the end, you feel like Triss was forced on you, you don't like her and some feel the exact same about Yen. The point is, you can't expect Geralt to behave exactly the way you want him to at all times, but waht is important is that we can all make a choice. It's not like you were forced to retire to Kovir with Triss, and Triss is Geralt's friend and ally regardless of the romance decisions each player can make. Even in the books Geralt is forgiving toward Triss, so to suddenly expect him to start treating badly is not in character for him, especially after all she's done for him. I completely agree with your last sentence, but I don't think CDPR did that with either Triss or Yen.

"At war" is obviously an overstatement, what I mean though, is that I didn't want the thread to derail into one of those many Triss VS Yennefer (as characters) threads, it was meant to be a thread about how different is the approach CDPR used to characterize Yen compared to that used to characterize Triss in the eyes of Geralt/the player.

You are talking from the perspective of those who have read the books and have played the previous games and I agree about the things you say about Yennefer and how her true self is known to Geralt. There is, though, a great amount of players who don't know who Yennefer is, why she is abrasive and sarcastic, and what she's like in regards to her relationship with Geralt and Ciri (probably the most part of those who play on PS4).
Having said that, the game starts with a dream and it introduces us to Yennefer. It doesn't say much about them (and Ciri), we only know that Geralt is on her tracks. Finally we find her (she find us) and we have the chance to talk to her after approximately two years being apart (Witcher 1 & 2 happen in the meantime). We talk to her but there's no way we get to know her. They talk about Ciri, share an innocent kiss and then they part. In the meantime, until their next encounter, I played for 40 hours, I completed Triss' quest (level 12 needed) and went to Skellige once it was the right time to do so (level 16 needed to get there). Obvioulsy, if you follow the story/chronological order to complete the quests, you'd probably end hooking up with Triss even before meeting Yen again. Before you meet Yen in Skellige (remember, you may be one of those players who know nothing about her) a man welcomes you on the shore of Ard Skellig and he - guess what - doesn't say kind words about Yennefer. So, tell me honestly, you as a player who has no clue, what do you expect when for the nth time a random character and your/Geralt's friends talks like this about a character you don't know? I felt like CDPR didn't think much about giving us the chance to know both Yen and Triss before deciding to settle with Yen or Triss. Either your Geralt hooks up with Triss BEFORE we know Yen, or we dump Triss before knowing Yen. Either way you may end with the wrong person (or both) not because you didn't choose properly, but because you didn't know what you were doing.
That's what I'm saying. An unware player who hears such "kind" words about Yennefer, words which contrast with the overthetop sweet appearance of Triss, what do you think will said player choose?


I don't want "my" Geralt to treat Triss badly, I just wanted to have the chance to simply "break up" with her, I don't want to drag their story further and - above all - I don't want Geralt to act like he cares for her as a lover (see for instance when he is jealous, during the party).

The game does not overlook any faults that are actually relevant to its story, which is told from the protagonist's point of view. Those who want to learn more about past events can always play the previous games and/or read the books, Wild Hunt does not spend much time on providing recaps of any content that already exists in its prequels. And since the game does establish that Geralt himself (who you are playing as) does not hold a grudge for Triss' alleged (and in my opinion somewhat overblown on internet forums) "crimes" from the past, and that all of that was already discussed between them off-screen, it is simply no longer relevant enough to merit more exposition than the few lines of dialogue that already acknowledge those events.

By the way, Triss and Dandelion have roughly the same amount of dialogue in the first two games, so it is not like Dandelion did not have the opportunity to talk if he wanted to.

Those who have played the previous games know a story where Triss is at fault for exploiting Geralt's amnesia. Those who haven't play the games get to know (and hook up with) Triss before they have a chance to properly be introduced to Yennefer, and every word spoken by various NPCs about her is unfair.
As I said, the fact that in two games Yennefer was never discussed in a decent manner was the big elephant in the room, and again (again and again), I'm also discussing how badly the game manages to ignore her big time, whether it is Dandelion ignoring her or Triss. Dandelion though, doesn't take advantage of Geralt's situation, Triss does. If you don't see the difference, I don't know what else I can say.

It is Geralt's character who is making her look less guilty, because in his perception she was indeed helpful, and she did in fact help him recover his memories once he seriously asked. It would also not have been relevant to the subject of that particular conversation with Regis to tell more - they are talking mainly about themselves, Triss is mentioned only tangentially.

It's CDPR that are making her look less guilty not giving Geralt (as my avatar) the chance to say something different. I don't expect Geralt to be mean, I expect him to act according to the decisions he (me) took during the previous games; that is, in my case, to be NOT in love with her and don't pretend to ever be in love with her. As I previously pointed out, during the party he acts like he is jealous of a Triss lover. Seriously?

Since Yennefer does not know much about the details and Geralt himself does not shift the blame towards Triss, I do not think her behavior is unrealistic. She only knows that they slept together for up to a year, and that can make anyone jealous. And Geralt does in fact have some responsibility in this matter, no one forced him into the relationship, and he should have known about the risk that he might have been cheating on someone from his "previous life".

Oh, please, she can read his mind and does so a couple of times during the game. I don't expect him to reply to her accusation with "It wasn't me! It was CDPR that came up with the - sorry - half-a**ed idea of the amnesia, I really thought that Triss was you!". And - I'm tired of writing this, seriously - as a player who chose Shani over Triss, I was quite annoyed to find out that the relationship between Geralt and Triss was a thing in AoK. So, yes, Triss was forced on me/Geralt.

??? Just because you as the player do not like the scene, it does not mean that Geralt's character was "raped".

It's not because I don't like the scene, it's because Geralt, as my avatar, didn't want to have any sexual/romantic intercourse with her. It might sound an overstatement (and I don't want to diminish the relevance this crime has in real life), but that's what it is, rape.
Or, to get back on track, a way CDPR forced Triss on Geralt and, consequently, on me.

It can be similar because there is no game that lets the player decide over everything, that would be more of a life simulator. Even in a game where choices are important, some of the narrative is fixed and the player has no control over it. And those parts are indeed like a novel or movie. Can you decide that you simply do not care about Ciri and will not bother searching for her? Of course, no. The Witcher 3 is an RPG with a pre-defined protagonist, which is somewhere between a novel and a "do everything you want" type of game.
As explained above, the game is not an entirely linear story, but it is not like a Bethesda RPG, either. How Geralt relates to the other main characters, you are given choice over that only within certain limits.

You keep insisting that I pretend to have every choice and plot patterns possible. It's not that. I expect, though, that the choice I made during the previous games have some importance in the game/s that follow. And, mind you, I'm not talking about the destiny of Temeria and Redania (Anais La Vallette anybody?), I'm talking about a small thing such as Geralt's romances and Geralt's reactions to the people around him.

It might be mistreatment by the characters insulting her, but not by the game if they have a believable (even if not necessarily morally right) reason to insult her. Sorceresses and other kinds of "freaks" are often insulted in the world of The Witcher, the same applies to Geralt himself, and Triss is also called a "witch" by someone at least once in all three games.

"Triss is also called a witch by someone at least once in three games". Yennefer is called in many insulting ways many times, in one game and not just by some ignorant and superstitious folk, but by those very same "freaks" who supposedly know how prejudice can hurt a person (Vesemir in particular) and know how important Geralt was for Yennefer and vice versa. Plus, Yennefer was very respectful of religion (especially in Skellige she acted very considerately in regards to people and religion. She was highly respected by the priestess there) and yet CDPR decided to make her act like she has no respect for anything and anybody (and both in the books and in the game, she was searching for Ciri).

Dijkstra says it himself: "Your other lover - not so much. She's cuddled up to Nilfgaard, and you'll follow her, as always. And one day we might find ourselves on opposite sides of the barricade". He wants Geralt to choose Triss, rather than Yennefer, because he thinks (rightly or not, it does not matter from his point of view) the latter is allied with Nilfgaard. Again, the game does not revolve around selling romance choices to the player, it just shows its characters with all of their own biases, they do not always have to be honest, and sometimes they can even be outright wrong.

Again, Geralt too is "allied" with Nilfgaard, and since Geralt and Yennefer are allied with Nilfgaard not for Nilfgaad's sake but for Ciri's, if Dijkstra expects Geralt to cut off his connection with Nilfgaard just because of Triss, he is stupid, and we know that stupid Dijkstra is not.

It also includes content that may look like it is pushing the player towards Yennefer, such as all the various references and NPCs talking about their past with Geralt, Priscilla's song, and so on, but these are again just the characters acting according to the given situation and how CDPR imagined them. I think it is generally easier to enjoy the game without looking for a "team" conspiracy on the developers' part in everything, there is usually a more reasonable explanation.

Conspiracy? I'm merely talking about unbalanced situations here. Priscilla's song was just a reminder - or a hint for those who know nothing about the previous games and the books - about Geralt's story, and Geralt's reaction is strangely neutral... neutral compared to the reaction he has at the party, with Triss (yes, that).

Well, if that is how you see it, there is not much that can be done about that, I disagree but I do not think I would be able to change your already established opinion. Maybe The Witcher 3 is just not the right type of game for you, and others with a player created character would be better, but that is only a guess. In any case, virtually any game with a story includes events and characters that are "forced" on the player. Even in something like Skyrim, there is a mostly linear main story that the player has to follow or at best temporarily ignore while doing side quests instead. One could also complain that Yennefer and Ciri are forced on the player and that it is an antithesis of role playing, but I do not do that now for the reasons already explained. In the end, the best solution might be for a future Witcher game to start over with a clean slate and new main characters.

Yes, it's only a guess, and a wrong one. As I already stated I don't pretend that my Geralt acts according to what I wish or according to how I feel towards something; I do expect though that I am given the chance to follow a pattern throughout three games, a consistent pattern that doesn't include actions, reaction, words of "accidental" forgetfulness that don't fit with what was established before, be it romances, characters or events.

 

[Guest 3847602]

I felt like CDPR didn't think much about giving us the chance to know both Yen and Triss before deciding to settle with Yen or Triss. Either your Geralt hooks up with Triss BEFORE we know Yen, or we dump Triss before knowing Yen. Either way you may end with the wrong person (or both) not because you didn't choose properly, but because you didn't know what you were doing. That's what I'm saying. An unware player who hears such "kind" words about Yennefer, words which contrast with the overthetop sweet appearance of Triss, what do you think will said player choose?

I guess that would depend on how much the person playing the game likes overthetop sweet LIs.
Yes, giving players a choice of pursuing or rejecting Triss before getting to properly know Yennefer is weird, but in no way guaranties the outcome.

It's CDPR that are making her look less guilty not giving Geralt (as my avatar) the chance to say something different. I don't expect Geralt to be mean, I expect him to act according to the decisions he (me) took during the previous games; that is, in my case, to be NOT in love with her and don't pretend to ever be in love with her. As I previously pointed out, during the party he acts like he is jealous of a Triss lover. Seriously?

Yes, he hugs her and acts jealously at the party, and that's it. Beside this "incident", it's really easy to completely ignore her romance subplot. A Matter of Life and Death is a secondary quest anyway. You can skip it if it bothers you that much.
Keep in mind, Geralt is even less reserved towards Yennefer during the wake at Skellige without any form of player's input.

To sum up - Yennefer has her own intro, she is the first and possibly the last person Geralt talks to in the game. She's got 30% more lines in the game compared to Triss. They wrote a ballad about her and Geralt, even the name of "Corvo Bianco" is a reference to them. That's even without mentioning subjective matters like the quality of character writing, banter, voice-acting, redesign of faces compared to E3 2014, none of which is going in Triss' favor, imo.
Looking at the game as it stands now it's really, really difficult to notice some kind of anti-Yen agenda by CDPR.

 

[Hamilton1358]

You are talking from the perspective of those who have read the books and have played the previous games and I agree about the things you say about Yennefer and how her true self is known to Geralt. There is, though, a great amount of players who don't know who Yennefer is, why she is abrasive and sarcastic, and what she's like in regards to her relationship with Geralt and Ciri (probably the most part of those who play on PS4).

Well, when I first played TW3, it was before I read the books. I have played the previous games several times prior to that, so what I knew of Yen was fairly limited to what the second game told me and what I read up about her in preparation for TW3. Despite not expecting to like her, my initial impressions of her were positive. At no point in the game did she seem like a bitch or done something that I would find particularly offensive. Some people will disagree and hate Yen/Triss for their own reasons no matter how CPDR presents them and there is nothing wrong with that. Different people like different things for different reasons. That's why we have choices in the games.

Still, speaking how the game represents Yen, I don't think CDPR has some bias against her and I feel they've done a pretty great job with her character. Some say that they regressed her to her personality from the short stories, but I don't see it personally. Imo, they did her justice. If the game only had people talking shit about Yen without showing her other side through her interactions with Geralt, the situation would be different, but the game gives enough exposition to see the true Yen. I also assume that most people make their own character judgments rather than blindly listening to NPC's.

You talk about being forced to have sex with Triss in the first game, but the same thing happens with Shani. If you want to complete her quest, you have to have sex in the end. I wanted to turn her down, got her the white roses, but she insisted on bringing her the red ones and when Gealt does that, she humps him. The only way to avoid her is to fail the quest. Some other quests from TW1, like the one with the vampire chicks also require Geralt to have sex to complete. The game had 90% of the women trying to fuck Geralt, it's just how TW1 is.

There are similar situations in TW3 too. You say how Geralt acts jealous during the party quest with Triss and how he gives her a hug, but how about Geralt acting all flirty with Yen during the wake without giving me a chance to avoid it, and that's after I already committed to Triss. I very much dislike that quest taking away my chance to choose differently and forcing Yen on me, probably similar to how you feel with Triss during the ball. However, the worst offender for me is the Shani kiss in HoS. I like Shani, but I don't want anything to do with her romance wise, yet if I want to avoid having a failed quest in my log, I have to take a walk with her and see Geralt acting completely out my control by giving her a passionate kiss you can't avoid. Sure, you can turn her down after that, but the kiss felt forced and made Geralt look like he was leading her on for no reason despite me choosing nothing but the "Let's be friends only" dialogue options. Moments like that annoy me too, especially when it comes to romance options.

But like I said, there are bound to be moments where each player feels like Geralt is acting out of their control, but what is important in TW3 is that it doesn't lead to forced choices. It would be different if we were actually forced into a romance with Yen/Triss, that would be horrible for an RPG, but we're not. Sure, Geralt may act up at times, but we all choose who he ends up with in the end and that's what's most important to me and why I'm ok overlooking the moments where the game takes away control from me, because ultimately, it allows me to make the choice I like best for Geralt.

 

[sv3672]

So, tell me honestly, you as a player who has no clue, what do you expect when for the nth time a random character and your/Geralt's friends talks like this about a character you don't know?

When random characters talk badly about someone I like, that usually affects my opinion of them more than of the person being badmouthed. That is because I know they might not be well informed, or they might have an agenda, so I prefer to form my own opinion.

I felt like CDPR didn't think much about giving us the chance to know both Yen and Triss before deciding to settle with Yen or Triss. Either your Geralt hooks up with Triss BEFORE we know Yen, or we dump Triss before knowing Yen. Either way you may end with the wrong person (or both) not because you didn't choose properly, but because you didn't know what you were doing.

It is also possible to complete The Last Wish before even meeting Triss at all. It is an open world game where you are given some freedom regarding the order in which you play the quests. I doubt that romances were a particularly important factor when the recommended levels of side quests were chosen, by the way, but the level difference between Now or Never (14) and the Skellige quest line (16) is not that large to begin with, and one can easily be ready for the latter after completing all the major quests in Velen. Also, playing Now or Never and romancing Triss early actually makes that path not very satisfying, I prefer to play it and maybe even the masquerade ball quest only after Ugly Baby myself (in pre-release versions of the game, Now or Never was a main quest in Act 2).

An unware player who hears such "kind" words about Yennefer, words which contrast with the overthetop sweet appearance of Triss, what do you think will said player choose?

I do not particularly care what other players choose, but as far as I can tell from what I see on forums, enough of them choose Yennefer regardless, so perhaps it is not as much of an issue as you make it sound like?

Those who have played the previous games know a story where Triss is at fault for exploiting Geralt's amnesia. Those who haven't play the games get to know (and hook up with) Triss before they have a chance to properly be introduced to Yennefer, and every word spoken by various NPCs about her is unfair.

All players are introduced to Yennefer as Geralt's long term lover already in the prologue. Seeing her with a child Ciri (who is then later seen again as an adult) in Kaer Morhen by itself tells that they have been together for years as a "family", and it is the first scene in the game, which makes it all the more powerful. The first quests in White Orchard are about finding Yennefer, but in Vizima you are also warned about her being jealous because of Geralt's recent relationship with Triss. How everyone plays the game after that is up to them, but it is not like you are not given the important information before being released into the open world, the game is not unfair to those who pay attention. Also, since Geralt (the pre-written character) himself forgives the amnesia thing, not knowing a lot about that is not essential for role playing as him, although it is acknowledged nevertheless. You are shown everything that really matters to his choice, such as his history with Yennefer. He also would not care about what random NPCs say, so why would you?

As I previously pointed out, during the party he acts like he is jealous of a Triss lover. Seriously?

He acts jealous depending on your choices. You can choose "Don't react" when first meeting Moritz Diefenthel, and there are also non-jealous lines when talking about him later. You can also just ignore the quest altogether, which is what would be the most in character for your Geralt anyway.

It's not because I don't like the scene, it's because Geralt, as my avatar, didn't want to have any sexual/romantic intercourse with her. It might sound an overstatement (and I don't want to diminish the relevance this crime has in real life), but that's what it is, rape.

I think you missed the point, if there is a sex scene that you (as the player) cannot avoid, that does not by itself in any way imply that the character was "raped". There is nothing that proves that Geralt (the character) had any objections. Or can I assume all sex between Geralt and Yennefer in the books has been rape? And no, just because it is a game, it does not mean the protagonist can never make his own decisions in cutscenes without your input (although I admit that can be annoying at times), it does happen in some other scenes, too.

You keep insisting that I pretend to have every choice and plot patterns possible. It's not that. I expect, though, that the choice I made during the previous games have some importance in the game/s that follow. And, mind you, I'm not talking about the destiny of Temeria and Redania (Anais La Vallette anybody?), I'm talking about a small thing such as Geralt's romances and Geralt's reactions to the people around him.

I did not see you complaining about TW3 ignoring choices from the previous games where players romanced Triss and never shown any intention to break up, nor about Yennefer being "forced" on them, though?

Yennefer was very respectful of religion (especially in Skellige she acted very considerately in regards to people and religion. She was highly respected by the priestess there) and yet CDPR decided to make her act like she has no respect for anything and anybody (and both in the books and in the game, she was searching for Ciri).

She has good reason to act like she does in the given situation. From Geralt's POV, I do not see why that would negatively affect his perception of Yennefer's character. It is basically similar to another scene in Count Reuven's Treasure (both quests written by the same guy, by the way) where Triss tortures a witch hunter to find out where Dandelion is - unethical, but necessary to find Ciri, just like the necromancy.

Again, Geralt too is "allied" with Nilfgaard, and since Geralt and Yennefer are allied with Nilfgaard not for Nilfgaad's sake but for Ciri's, if Dijkstra expects Geralt to cut off his connection with Nilfgaard just because of Triss, he is stupid, and we know that stupid Dijkstra is not.

Dijkstra only knows that she has been working with Emhyr recently, and (unlike you and Geralt) not necessarily that it is only because of Ciri. Anyone can look stupid when drawing conclusions from incomplete information.

Conspiracy? I'm merely talking about unbalanced situations here. Priscilla's song was just a reminder - or a hint for those who know nothing about the previous games and the books - about Geralt's story, and Geralt's reaction is strangely neutral... neutral compared to the reaction he has at the party, with Triss (yes, that).

Regarding unbalanced situations, ooodrin's post above already explained that. One could just as easily accuse CDPR of "Yennefer bias". There is just not much point either way, Geralt's story is over, and while the trilogy is not perfect (nothing is), at this time I would rather accept it for what it is, playing the games is more fun than complaining on forums. To be honest, if I wanted an ending with Yennefer, I do not see why I would be less satisfied with what the game offers. Sure enough she is not in the first two games, but it is a part of the story, and even in TW3 alone she does not have that much less content anyway than Triss does in all three combined (as I mentioned before, it is basically equal in TW2+TW3, the older games are much shorter than the final one).