What creative solutions to game difficulty could be added other than the archaic HP/DMG modifiers?

[Dreadpoet]

Novice: resources are plentiful, enemies AC and Attack are lowered due to less than ideal equipment and lowered reflex due to lack of training.
Normal: Well? Normal
Hardcore: Enemies have increased AC and attack due to better equipment and higher reflex due to superior training. Food and Rest required to full heal. Resources are not always available.
Insane: AutoSaves only (sleep cycles, beginning/end of mission, every 30 minutes), increased AC and attack due to better equipment and higher reflex due to superior training. Resources are scarce. Food and rest are required. (negatives to stats, earned exp., and health when no sleep in 24 game hours) Death after 4 days no sleep and/or 7 days no food or water.
One Day at a Time: Normal difficulty. Food rest required. Autosaves only. 3 lives only(game will delete autosaves after 3rd recorded death).

 

[helios969]

Because for most people "have great FPS mechanics" doesn't mix well with character immersion when said character doesn't know how to hold a gun (or the opposite: it doesn't mix well with character immersion when said character never miss a shot).

By character you mean the individual player controlling the character? "Pros vs scrubs?"

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

By character you mean the individual player controlling the character? "Pros vs scrubs?"

Character is the character you control, player is player, one can be a good shot when the other is not, but most FPS player says the shooting gameplay is bad if it is represented ingame.

 

[Dreadpoet]

Player immersion is what you make of it. I feel pulled out of a game whenever I see a FPS gaming mechanic not make sense. I.E., how could you possibly shoulder a sniper rifle and fire, with practically no time to site, and be more accurate than lining up the shot. I do shoot...real guns. That does not make sense. Firing at rapid speed or firing without aiming never makes a person more accurate.

 

[helios969]

So it seems many people define immersion as realism...are you okay being shot once and are incapacitated?

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

So it seems many people define immersion as realism...are you okay being shot once and are incapacitated?

Yep, that gives more usefulness to your Cool and Body stats and gives a real sense of danger.
That's the reason why V should not do otherwise suicidal things like fighting a group of armed people alone.

 

[helios969]

Yep, that gives more usefulness to your Cool and Body stats and gives a real sense of danger.
That's the reason why V should not do otherwise suicidal things like fighting a group of armed people alone.

Well I would think some sort of "one hit" toggle could be implemented so people could choose. I still don't think that impedes creating a good FPS in an RPG. My impression from the trailer was that there would be alternative approaches to gameplay that didn't require people to run around like Rambo...and you could avoid/minimize shooting engagements. Personally I'll take the Rambo approach...and if need-be head canon V's ability to survive the constant carnage.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Well I would think some sort of "one hit" toggle could be implemented so people could choose. I still don't think that impedes creating a good FPS in an RPG. My impression from the trailer was that there would be alternative approaches to gameplay that didn't require people to run around like Rambo...and you could avoid/minimize shooting engagements. Personally I'll take the Rambo approach...and if need-be head canon V's ability to survive the constant carnage.

So the solution to unimmersive FPS for you is to be forced to avoid shooting?
What about when your roleplay force you into unimmersive combat, like V being bullied?

Besides, having Cool and Body checked isn't the same as an auto "one hit", it just makes it like you CAN die from one hit.

And there may be other unimmersive conscequences to Rambo combat, like disparity in rewards: why should one be stealthy and miss all the loot on enemy while killing then looting everyone is easy? As normally the reason to stay stealthy is survival, but it's not the case anymore, so who cares about stealth?

Immersion breaking things works in chains, one getting to the other.

I don't know how they will do with the "survival" part, which is key to the Cyberpunk 2020 vibes, with a character which is essentially Rambo (from what I saw, it's even more like Terminator or Predator level).

 

[Dreadpoet]

I think you can still have an immersive experience while in a gameplay (non-realistic) experience. The theater refers to this as "verisimilitude" or seemingly true. The audience (player) can have an immersive experience so long as the play's (game's) world is consistent and has a seeming truth to it.
Though not plausible, a cyberpunk world can have a seeming truth...so long as it is consistent to the point that players can suspend their disbelief. Likewise, we can accept a video game world because it is a video game. Characters can take more than one hit from a .308 (Fallout), that would otherwise leave a fist sized hole in a persons body in real life.
While I personally can be made to believe that one can develop proficiency enough at shooting from the hip that they can have amazing results, I have a hard time suspending my belief that a character can bend bullet trajectories--strictly based on how they move/position the gun when firing. I also have a difficult time in buying the sniper rifle headshot when shooting from the hip. As Luke Skywalker would say "No... that's not true! That's impossible!"

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I guess maybe I don't understand how you define roleplaying...

You can "roleplay" in any game. You can "roleplay" a paddle in pong if you want to. But that doesn't make any game a roleplaying game. A proper roleplaying game provides roleplaying as means of gameplay. If you only have a virtual costume to guide through the game, that's not it. There's a lot more to roleplaying in a roleplaying game than simply choosing narrative paths, the character (the role) is a much more complex entity than simply an extension of your controls.

 

[Dreadpoet]

Though off topic of gaming difficulty, I like the question regarding the definition of roleplaying. It often feels like if a game is set in a fantasy world, with leveling up, it is an rpg or an action rpg.
I think that you have to expand your definition of roleplaying when approaching video games vs. pen&paper rpgs. Definitely any game that provides a wide range of character narrative; and consistent player choices having in game consequences. But what about games that leveling up, a feature that is synonymous with traditional pen&paper rpgs? I do not feel drawn into the character just because I chose a level 2 ice spell over a level 3 fire spell

 

[NorseGraphics]

There are a couple of solutions to really keep you on your toes, and that is Dead-Is-Dead.

And if you combine this with shots fired on heads being instant-death for both player and NPC's....

Things would becoming interesting!

 

[Dreadpoet]

shots fired on heads being instant-death for both player and NPC's....

I agree this makes a bit of sense...but I do not think it makes sense in terms of Cyberpunk 2077 aligning with 2020. While there is some translation that needs to happen for a FPS title to work alongside pen&Paper rpg rules, I think the same basic damage ruleset/mechanic should apply from novice to expert on the video game--just as it does in the pen&paper game. Just increase difficulty based on the AC of the enemy. The AC can be dictated based on the level of competency in characters training and their equipment choices.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I'm not really a sucker for "realism". I liked Arma series all the way from it still being Operation Flashpoint, but with these sorts of games... I don't really see it being "fun" to constantly getting a *poof* you're dead message.

I'd really prefer the game played more with abstraction and more systemic approach. Abstracted, more character based accuracy -- and instead of a HP bar, I'd like to see something of sort of like the "wound" system from the PnP.

Let's say you (and the NPC's) have 7 different basic states of being:
- Buffed
- Well
- Fatigued/disoriented
- Lightly wounded
- Moderately wounded
- Severely wounded
- Mortally wounded
- Dead

Each state of being is a bundle of effects that grows on top of the previous state.

- Buffed happens under drugs

• Stat bonuses according to what you've consumed.

- Well

• all is well.

- Dead

• Time to reload

- Fatigued

• Timed
• Cures itself eventually
• Can be treated by the character with basic means
• Slight hit to speed (slower movement)
• Slight hit to accuracy (blurry and "alive" crosshair that widens and contracts itself, disaligned ironsights)
• Slight timely visual blurriness (can be compensated with drugs)

- Lightly wounded

• Remains until treated
• Can be treated by a doc or the PC with appropriate medical skills and tools
• Can be somewhat compensated with drugs
• Slightly bigger hit to speed
• Slightly bigger hit to accuracy
• No further effects to vision

- Moderately wounded

• Remains until treated
• Causes slow bleeding effect that will eventually turn the wound into severe (can be treated separately with relateive ease)
• Can be treated by a doc or the PC with appropriately higher medical skills and tools
• Can be slightly compensated with drugs
• A noticeable hit to accuracy
• A noticeable hit to speed
• Slightly more blurry vision

- Severely wounded

• Remains until treated
• Causes faster bleeding effect that will eventually turn into mortal wound (can be treated separately, but not easily)
• Can be treated by a doc or the PC with really high medical skills and tools
• Can be slightly compensated with drugs
• Heavy hit to accuracy
• Heavy hit to movement
• Noticeable visual distortions

- Mortally wounded

• Trauma team time, hope you have your insurances in order
• Heavy bleeding that will eventually kill you
• Heavy hit to vision and speed
• Almost incapable to fight
• Requirement to get somewhere where the TT can fix you to what ever end your insurance allows
• TT not guaranteed to save you (chances based on insurance level, location and threat level for the TT)
• Can be treated by a companion with appropriately high medical proficiency
• Companion can also be asked to try and take you to a safe enough location for TT

When an enemy hits you or whe you hit an enemy, the game rolls for the wound based on your accuracy, the base damage of your gun, the armor class and the location of the hit. The more accuracte you are, the more likely you are to pull off a really devastating shot (your ability to hit targets is better physically and after you can hit something, your chances of causing greater wounds or instant kills increases). Lower level enemies are less accuracte and less likely (but not incapable of) to create higher wound states.

The wound states do pile up, but not in a strictly linear order. For example, you might have to cause 5 "fatigues" to jump to "light wounds, 4 "light wounds" before it jumps to a "moderate wound" and 3 "moderates" to jump to "severe", and so on, but based on your character and roll, you might do a "severe wound" straight away in one shot, or jump from "fatigued" to "mortal" in one shot, or even kill someone in one shot. All right from the start, but the efficiency and chances alter based on your characters aptitude (and of course, the same goes for NPC's shooting/hitting you).

It's all based on the character while the player does the action (moving, choosing when and whom to shoot). How combat itself would work is another topic.

And if difficulty modifies the PC's based abilities before skill and other modifiers and the game is built for set difficulty (like I suggested earlier), it'll be really hard for a low level PC to function properly in combat in harder difficulties.

(Disclaimer: don't take the points literally, they are just to provide a general idea.)

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

There are a couple of solutions to really keep you on your toes, and that is Dead-Is-Dead.

I would actually have no problem with that as long as my character is fighting on his own.

 

[helios969]

You can "roleplay" in any game. You can "roleplay" a paddle in pong if you want to. But that doesn't make any game a roleplaying game. A proper roleplaying game provides roleplaying as means of gameplay. If you only have a virtual costume to guide through the game, that's not it. There's a lot more to roleplaying in a roleplaying game than simply choosing narrative paths, the character (the role) is a much more complex entity than simply an extension of your controls.

Well that's probably true but your not going to get that absolute freedom outside pen and paper...definitely not in a modern AAA RPG with voiced protagonist.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Well that's probably true but your not going to get that absolute freedom outside pen and paper...definitely not in a modern AAA RPG with voiced protagonist.

It's not only about freedom, it's about gameplay mechanics too.
It's there is stats/skills and your character doesn't feel like it's defined by those, then there is a problem in the roleplay department.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Well that's probably true but your not going to get that absolute freedom outside pen and paper...definitely not in a modern AAA RPG with voiced protagonist.

I don't need "absolute" freedom. Just how ever much the game can offer to me, and equally so, gameplay mechanics that reflect my character appropriately (that I can't well compensate for his weaknesses for being good with controls myself, and also, that I don't need to be as good at something as he is supposed to be according to how I've built/developed him).

I've long thought that the notion that a modern day triple-A RPG's can't do what games did well 25 years ago already is absurd. It's about priorities and picking the battles. Developement studios shouldn't say they are making RPG's and promote their games as such, if their priorities lie elsewhere and the cost of those priorities is to hamper and diminish the RPG elements of the game (or cherry picking a couple and neglecting the rest).

 

[helios969]

I don't need "absolute" freedom. Just how ever much the game can offer to me, and equally so, gameplay mechanics that reflect my character appropriately (that I can't well compensate for his weaknesses for being good with controls myself, and also, that I don't need to be as good at something as he is supposed to be according to how I've built/developed him).

I've long thought that the notion that a modern day triple-A RPG's can't do what games did well 25 years ago already is absurd. It's about priorities and picking the battles. Developement studios shouldn't say they are making RPG's and promote their games as such, if their priorities lie elsewhere and the cost of those priorities is to hamper and diminish the RPG elements of the game (or cherry picking a couple and neglecting the rest).

To address the first: There are all sorts of mechanisms that can be put in place to assist people who are not great with controls or simply don't care to invest the time. You don't strip out the depth to accommodate...you look for ways to elevate.

To the second, of course you can (though I don't know any 25 year old RPGs I would classify as great)...just like you can do what I suggest and have both good RP and good FPS all in one. It comes down to what the developer is willing to risk...and what kind of return they think they can. I think it's pretty clear why you don't see those old school RPG videogames being made by AAA studios anymore.

Regardless of any of our personal preferences CDPR is committed to creating a FPS RPG so they should do all they can to make both experiences satisfying. If they do they'll make lots of money, if they don't the Internet is waiting with pitchforks and torches.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

To address the first: There are all sorts of mechanisms that can be put in place to assist people who are not great with controls or simply don't care to invest the time.

But the point isn't just about "not being good with controls", it is also about "being good with controls". That the character build handles it both ways (if the character is bad, the player can not play him well even if he is good himself; if the character is good, the player need not be good himself).

good RP and good FPS all in one.

I don't think the former is possible if you substitute the character with the player in the latter -- and it's very disjointed if you do that with some aspects, but not the others.

Well, you can roleplay to your hearts content in any FPS. Roleplay itself is just an excercise of imagination. But a roleplaying game is a game where the roleplay is gamified; the roleplay is provided and supported by the game, whether you set out to roleplay or not (you don't have to, but the game - as far as it does it - plays in a way that that just happens naturally). And there you need a range of characteristics that are not defined by your dexterity, but by those the character.

CDPR is committed to creating a FPS RPG

They did press on hard that it is not an FPS, or even an FPS with RPG elements, but a first person RPG. That's different than FPS RPG. And that's what I'm latching on to. That's is why I'd hate to see the game become a "good/great" FPS, because that goes so much against the RPG side of it. If it was intended as a "good FPS", there wouldn't need to be skills to govern shooting, because those will only hamper the FPS part no matter how it is done.

And that's beside my personal distate for FPS games pretending to be RPG's.

There are plenty of ways to RPG combat fun in first person without turning it into a full blown FPS every time combat ensues.