What's with Yennefer and Emhyr?

[haglord]

What's with Yennefer and Emhyr?

Pardon me if someone has brought this up before, but I overhead a conversation between Yennefer and Ciri at Skellige that has me feeling confused... Here's a clip of the exact dialogue.

Spoiler

"Perhaps you even should." Why is Yennefer being so bossy about Emhyr? I thought they were former enemies, since when did she start advocating for him? And why? It seems so out of character for Yen. Especially considering what Emhyr has hoped to do with Ciri in the past. She gives no good reason to trust him other than her own word. And yet when Ciri tries to bring up his authoritarian persona Yen tells her to get used to it, like it's just some minor personality flaw instead of his very identity.

Don't get me wrong, I like Emhyr as a character. I understand that he isn't necessarily evil from his own point of view and is probably doing what he thinks benefits the greater good, but Ciri's agency and personal desires don't factor into that. He consistently asserts that she be brought to Vizima, regardless of her opinion on the matter. It's all about Reasons of State.™ (but I suspect his feelings towards her aren't wholly related to business. He does care about what Ciri thinks of him. He shows a rare moment of vulnerability when he asks if Ciri had anything to convey; he seems happy if you tell him she wanted to make peace, and disappointed otherwise. I even detect subtle hints of envy for Geralt, especially if you take Ciri to Vizima. Dad vs. Step-Dad)

I digress. I fail to comprehend why Yennefer of all people would vouch for Emhyr, unless she's suffering from Stockholm syndrome after being a prisoner in his court, or she's been privy to another side of him.

 

[Victorzilki]

Because she want the best for his daughter! ride2:

 

[StandardEpiphany]

Yennefer's apologia for Emhyr would have made sense if she was written to have some sort of involvement in the Empress ending. Perhaps she had rationalized that Ciri would be safest at the emperial court, maybe even go as far as have her as advisor and watchdog. It could have tied in with the plans she had cooked up with Emhyr in relation to the Lodge. But as she is shown to have no clue about Ciri's decision to become an empress, it's just another abandoned/underdeveloped characterization point.

As it stands, I guess Yennefer softened up in regards to Nilfgaard because she liked the stuffed lamb shoulder at the court, or something.

 

[wright1978]

Yeah Yen's firmly in bed with Emhyr in the game. She clearly genuinely believes his old plans for her are no longer a danger. All that time by his side has clearly changed her perceptions of the man too. I was waiting for the game to come up with some grand revelation as to why Emhyr was suddenly desperate to reconcile with Ciri such as terminal illness or infertility. I'll still headcanon there must be something like that going on. Maybe Yen now views Emhyr as a lesser evil to be embraced/faced rather than to be protected from.

 

[StandardEpiphany]

I am even more interested to find out why Ciri, who had an understandable and considerable amount of disdain for Emhyr and a complete lack of political acumen, would decide to go along with his desire and take her place at the court without consulting with anyone else beforehand. Because that comes out of nowhere with the flimsiest of "I can change the world" explanations ever.

It's all rather vague and poorly constructed.

 

[Frybread]

Yeah Yen's firmly in bed with Emhyr in the game. She clearly genuinely believes his old plans for her are no longer a danger. All that time by his side has clearly changed her perceptions of the man too. I was waiting for the game to come up with some grand revelation as to why Emhyr was suddenly desperate to reconcile with Ciri such as terminal illness or infertility. I'll still headcanon there must be something like that going on. Maybe Yen now views Emhyr as a lesser evil to be embraced/faced rather than to be protected from.

I thought Emhyr wanted Ciri because he had plans to abdicate the throne to her to keep the Nilfgaardian noble families and trade corporations from deposing him. Even with winning the war, Emhyr would probably still want an heir he believed he could mold and shape to carry out his legacy.

 

[wright1978]

I thought Emhyr wanted Ciri because he had plans to abdicate the throne to her to keep the Nilfgaardian noble families and trade corporations from deposing him. Even with winning the war, Emhyr would probably still want an heir he believed he could mold and shape to carry out his legacy.

There are enemies gathering. It was never clear he was thinking of abdicating because of them though as far as i could see. In the end he strings them all up if he wins and seems to carry on for now.
What happened to fake Ciri though? Has he tried to sire more heirs in the meantime and failed?

 

[haglord]

It's all rather vague and poorly constructed.

Exactly my thoughts. Ciri claims Emhyr wrote her a letter sometime after their meeting at Vizima, and it supposedly made her consider the thought of becoming Empress. I don't know what he could say to change her mind.

It's true that Ciri will be safe from physical threats in the Nilfgaardian court, but there's no telling how other courtiers and nobles will react to her. An outsider, albeit the biological offspring of Emhyr, is now slated to inherit the throne? In the novels a similar thing happens with False Cirilla, courtiers gossip and disdain F!Ciri due to her Northern heritage. She is therefore "uncivilized" to the Nilfgaardians.

Speaking of F!Ciri, I'm going to assume she never existed in the CDPR Witcher universe, since there's no mention of her anywhere and she couldn't reasonably fit in with the plot anyways. I remember reading a book in-game (The Opposition in Nilfgaard) stating that Emhyr is unmarried, another reason why he is at risk of being deposed (by pissing off magnates who expected him to wed one of their daughters and sire an heir with them) Curious.

Ciri has no political training. Her hotheaded and free-spirited personality is not the makings for a serious ruler. She was raised to be a Witcher, not an empress. I'd trust her ability to make a living as a swordswoman, but at the Nilfgaardian court she'd be a lamb in the lion's den. Ruthless, opportunistic personalities like Dijkstra and Philippa would be everywhere.

---------- Updated at 11:27 PM ----------

Yeah Yen's firmly in bed with Emhyr in the game. She clearly genuinely believes his old plans for her are no longer a danger. All that time by his side has clearly changed her perceptions of the man too. I was waiting for the game to come up with some grand revelation as to why Emhyr was suddenly desperate to reconcile with Ciri such as terminal illness or infertility. I'll still headcanon there must be something like that going on. Maybe Yen now views Emhyr as a lesser evil to be embraced/faced rather than to be protected from.

Ciri is his contingency plan. Emhyr is in danger of being deposed, and says so himself. If he secures an heir then his dynasty is safe. I do think he may wish to reconcile with Ciri, but it's not his main objective.

It would've been interesting if we could've seen a softer side of him. The ultimatum of his character arc in the books is that he's "human after all." It definitely would've given me more incentive to trust him with Ciri.

 

[StandardEpiphany]

Exactly my thoughts. Ciri claims Emhyr wrote her a letter sometime after their meeting at Vizima, and it supposedly made her consider the thought of becoming Empress. I don't know what he could say to change her mind.

Yes, well, that's as deep as it goes, unfortunately. There are no explanations as to why Ciri is sold on this idea just like there are no explanations as to why Yennefer is so sure that he is OK despite his highly questionable past and dictatorial nature. Emhyr, as portrayed in the game, is not the worst entity to hover around Ciri, but he's still far from a trustworthy figure.

I'm not saying that it's impossible for a redeeming scenario to exist in regards to Emhyr (he's a complex enough asshole), but as far as I'm concerned, I don't see it, whitewashed as he is in TW3. And it makes the other characters' (Yennefer and Ciri in the empress ending) attitudes towards him seem strange and inappropriate when they are not substantiated by the narrative and the characterization.

 

[wright1978]

Ciri is his contingency plan. Emhyr is in danger of being deposed, and says so himself. If he secures an heir then his dynasty is safe. I do think he may wish to reconcile with Ciri, but it's not his main objective.

It would've been interesting if we could've seen a softer side of him. The ultimatum of his character arc in the books is that he's "human after all." It definitely would've given me more incentive to trust him with Ciri.

I'm not sure why an heir, especially a controversial northern one would placate all his enemies.
Unlike with Henselt they don't bother to properly explain why he's been ignoring such a crucial aspect of his dynasty in the intervening years.

---------- Updated at 09:41 AM ----------

Ciri has no political training. Her hotheaded and free-spirited personality is not the makings for a serious ruler. She was raised to be a Witcher, not an empress. I'd trust her ability to make a living as a swordswoman, but at the Nilfgaardian court she'd be a lamb in the lion's den. Ruthless, opportunistic personalities like Dijkstra and Philippa would be everywhere.
.

Yeah personally i think she'd be leashed firmly, married off and any grand reform plans would either be squashed or she'll be squashed, hence why i never plan on having her as Empress. I do think it opens the possibility of a future Ciri game as they could easily merge the paths towards a witcheress route by having her having to flee being deposed by the sharks at court.

---------- Updated at 09:46 AM ----------

Speaking of F!Ciri, I'm going to assume she never existed in the CDPR Witcher universe, since there's no mention of her anywhere and she couldn't reasonably fit in with the plot anyways. I remember reading a book in-game (The Opposition in Nilfgaard) stating that Emhyr is unmarried, another reason why he is at risk of being deposed (by pissing off magnates who expected him to wed one of their daughters and sire an heir with them) Curious.
.

Interesting missed that. So does that mean he killed off false Cirilla or do the games now treat the books as non canon.

 

[sv3672]

Yeah personally i think she'd be leashed firmly, married off and any grand reform plans would either be squashed or she'll be squashed, hence why i never plan on having her as Empress. I do think it opens the possibility of a future Ciri game as they could easily merge the paths towards a witcheress route by having her having to flee being deposed by the sharks at court.

It was actually planned that Ciri would marry Voorhis in the empress ending, with Emhyr giving up the throne, but it was deleted from the game. The picture below is from an old leaked document (last modified on Aug 26 2013):

Spoiler

By the way, it is interesting to compare these early endings with what is in the actual released version of the game (in finalboards.7z), they are also still numbered similarly.

 

[wright1978]

It was actually planned that Ciri would marry Voorhis in the empress ending, with Emhyr giving up the throne, but it was deleted from the game. The picture below is from an old leaked document (last modified on Aug 26 2013):

Spoiler

By the way, it is interesting to compare these early endings with what is in the actual released version of the game (in finalboards.7z), they are also still numbered similarly.

That makes sense, Voorhis seemed poised for that. Maybe removing that was an attempt to bleach empress ending into something more palatable.

 

[haglord]

Interesting missed that. So does that mean he killed off false Cirilla or do the games now treat the books as non canon.

I'm unsure. I guess we can't know for certain. I'd assume the latter, it wouldn't make sense in the context of the story for there to be 2 Ciris. The Emperor of Nilfgaard announces to his subjects that he'd been married to a Cirilla imposer all along, the true Ciri is actually his daughter, and he plans for abdication to her? I doubt that would go over well. In the CDPR Witcher universe everybody already seems to know that Emhyr is Ciri's biological father, when he, Geralt, and Yennefer were the only ones with that knowledge in the books. And it's hard to overlook that giant painting of child Ciri in his office. He isn't hiding his familial relation to her.

Besides, there is never an Empress mentioned in the game anywhere by anyone, not even by the Nilfgaardians. That's good enough proof to me that F!Ciri doesn't exist in TW3. And aside from being extremely confusing to anyone who hasn't read the books, it's squicky and no one would want the Empress ending if they had a taste of how unscrupulous Emhyr is. Nilfgaard in general is very whitewashed for TW3. There's no mention of slavery, capital punishment, or unnecessary razing of villages. Only one mention of how Emhyr wanted to sire a child with Ciri, hinted in Fringilla's letter to Yennefer. ("It is good to know that Emhyr's intentions for Ciri have become more, how shall I put it, mundane...")

---------- Updated at 01:56 PM ----------

That makes sense, Voorhis seemed poised for that. Maybe removing that was an attempt to bleach empress ending into something more palatable.

I'm glad they left out that detail. It wouldn't be very reassuring to know Ciri is just being sent off to get hitched to Voorhis in the Empress ending. I can't imagine him and Ciri would have good chemistry.

also, "Emhyr got mad" did he lose his mind? or just really pissed? in the ordinary 'Nilfgaard Lost' ending he is assassinated, I wonder if that wasn't always the case

 

[sv3672]

also, "Emhyr got mad" did he lose his mind?

Probably yes, and then it was later replaced with the assassination. His rule ends either way. But it was also removed from that ending that Voorhis becomes the new emperor.

Another interesting thing is that those old endings do not include Dijkstra and Svanrige, perhaps they were only added late in the development as possible choices, and that is why they are so under-developed (Svanrige) or badly done (Dijkstra in Reason of State). Only Geralt's three endings remained unchanged, it seems his retirement was planned from early on.

 

[RepHope]

I'm unsure. I guess we can't know for certain. I'd assume the latter, it wouldn't make sense in the context of the story for there to be 2 Ciris. The Emperor of Nilfgaard announces to his subjects that he'd been married to a Cirilla imposer all along, the true Ciri is actually his daughter, and he plans for abdication to her? I doubt that would go over well. In the CDPR Witcher universe everybody already seems to know that Emhyr is Ciri's biological father, when he, Geralt, and Yennefer were the only ones with that knowledge in the books. And it's hard to overlook that giant painting of child Ciri in his office. He isn't hiding his familial relation to her.

Besides, there is never an Empress mentioned in the game anywhere by anyone, not even by the Nilfgaardians. That's good enough proof to me that F!Ciri doesn't exist in TW3. And aside from being extremely confusing to anyone who hasn't read the books, it's squicky and no one would want the Empress ending if they had a taste of how unscrupulous Emhyr is. Nilfgaard in general is very whitewashed for TW3. There's no mention of slavery, capital punishment, or unnecessary razing of villages. Only one mention of how Emhyr wanted to sire a child with Ciri, hinted in Fringilla's letter to Yennefer. ("It is good to know that Emhyr's intentions for Ciri have become more, how shall I put it, mundane...")

---------- Updated at 01:56 PM ----------



I'm glad they left out that detail. It wouldn't be very reassuring to know Ciri is just being sent off to get hitched to Voorhis in the Empress ending. I can't imagine him and Ciri would have good chemistry.

also, "Emhyr got mad" did he lose his mind? or just really pissed? in the ordinary 'Nilfgaard Lost' ending he is assassinated, I wonder if that wasn't always the case

Slavery and the Nilfgaardian practice of ejecting natives from their home to be replaced with settlers are actually mentioned. Slaves are mentioned by a noblewoman in Vizima, that the Emperor is borrowing some duchess' to renovate the palace. Nilfgaardian soldiers ear some bridge talk about how much they hate the local Nordlings, and one of them darkly mentions that there are plans to settle proper Nilfgaardians up in the North after the war.

But yeah otherwise Nilfgaard gets a pass, and life is somehow grand for the North under Nilfgaard.

 

[haglord]

Slavery and the Nilfgaardian practice of ejecting natives from their home to be replaced with settlers are actually mentioned. Slaves are mentioned by a noblewoman in Vizima, that the Emperor is borrowing some duchess' to renovate the palace. Nilfgaardian soldiers ear some bridge talk about how much they hate the local Nordlings, and one of them darkly mentions that there are plans to settle proper Nilfgaardians up in the North after the war.

But yeah otherwise Nilfgaard gets a pass, and life is somehow grand for the North under Nilfgaard.

Interesting details. I feel like TW3 is biased in favor of Nilfgaard. Without having any prior background on the Empire, one would likely see them as reasonable yet strict occupiers bringing civilization to the North, when the reality of the situation is not so simple. It doesn't help that Radovid is portrayed as a lunatic while the 'tactical genius' side of his character isn't really given justice

 

[The_Iceman]

It was actually planned that Ciri would marry Voorhis in the empress ending, with Emhyr giving up the throne, but it was deleted from the game.

Thank God.

Another reason that shows Ciri being an empress is NOT the best ending.

 

[sis2310]

People do forget that Ciri is still a princess. Maybe she is sick and tired of all the running and fighting she had to endure for the majority of her life??

In the books there are a few times where the princess inside of her comes out, one moment that sticks out is when she talks down to a fat noblewoman after she takes a young girls brooch when she is riding with the rats

The woman says ""do you know who you are speaking to? she is noble-born daughter of the baron of Casadei"

to which Ciri replies

"A Baron's daughter? A petty title. And even if the snot was a countess, she ought to curtsy before me, arse close to the ground and head low."

This to me proves that she never forgot who she was and where she came from and at times she resented the life she is forced to lead.
So her accepting Emhry's invitation to become Empress doesn't seem to so far fetched IMO

 

[sv3672]

Thank God.

Another reason that shows Ciri being an empress is NOT the best ending.

It makes sense from a political point of view, though. Of course, whether Ciri would like the idea is another matter. Maybe more content would also have been in the game to make that relationship more believable.

 

[Shamerida]

"So they’re our agents now?
Hm, so they’re “our” agents now? My, my… you’ve clearly settled in quick.
Geralt, don’t twist my words.
I know who Emhyr is. He started this war and its bloodshed. He had my friends killed. But I haven’t any other choice, so please… let’s not belabor the pros and cons and instead focus on finding Ciri. All right?"

How exactly you can prove they bedded?