Witcher...Gothic.....Both Fantastic

[LadyRolePlay]

I am in total agreement with Diss's post. Everything he pointed out was very valid, shortcomings of both, and The Witcher had some big ones. I still can't get over Carmen and the Lady at the House of Night being essentially the same, npc with the same voice . And it did feel very awkward just strolling into a house, looting everything out of it, then talking to the npc like nothing happened, though that certainly did not stop me from doing it, saved a lot on costs of books that way . And despite all the ladies you could bed with, there was no real romance per se, I'd like to see them add some more depth to some of their main characters as well, especially the ones that stay with you through out the game, not just Triss and Shanil

 

[username_2069465]

[quote author=Diss]1. You cannot simply walk into any house and rob everyone blind, which is R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S in Witcher and detracts INCREDIBLY from the experience. In fact, forget about stealing - in Gothic, you can't even WALK INTO a stranger's house without being threatened, which is much more realistic than The Witcher, where you can just burst into any UNLOCKED house anytime you want and start stealing or talking. I absolutely HATE that aspect of the game.[/QUOTE]There were a couple of instances in both Gothics where you could just barge inside a house and open whatever chests were lying there without anyone saying a thing.[quote author=Diss]2. ZERO barriers when traveling the worlds in Gothic. No idiotic little fences or bushes that you can't jump over as in Witcher, which get so annoying.[/QUOTE]Funny you say that in a series where one of the game features a freaking MAGIC barrier. But anyway, more or less true; at least huge mountains and oceans blocking your path are more believable than a fence and/or invisible wall, though you get the feeling you're playing in Greece.[quote author=Diss]3. Combat - this is a personal preference. The Witcher has incredible combat finishing moves, but i still prefer to have total control over my character in combat, especially the ability to block and then strike, etc. Clicking on an enemy and then waiting to click again just seems rather dull sometimes, although the moves are so great that it's still enjoyable. But Gothic 2 had an incredible combat system that was incredibly satisying. Gothic 1 was much clunkier and more difficult to control, but it still gave the player complete control over the character in combat.[/QUOTE]I love the combat controls in Gothic 2, though you gotta admit it's hard to get into for someone who isn't used to action games. Just ask any hardcore CRPG player with little to no experience in other videogame genres how much they liked that part of the game. Also, a combo system maybe like Revenant's might have added some more interest. Witcher developers should take a note of it as well, it was well praised.Gothic's combat itself, however, is average in design. Magic and bows are ridiculously overpowered if you can get to inaccessible ground, and melee weapons offer no efficient way to deal with multiple enemies unless you resort to stupid, immersion-breaking techniques like getting behind a fence and exploiting reach, a building and waiting for the enemy to circle i, or using the infamous save/load trick to get enemies stuck behind doors. Also, no mana regeneration means you'll be drinking mana elixirs like crazy in a game where drinking potions is both hindered and scoffed at.And even though the rest of the points are very valid, Gothic is a game that is far from perfect. It suffers from constant crashes, a very artificial difficulty progression (through armor restriction), an inflated economy, an unbalanced magic system (interruptible, hideously bad at the beginning, moderately good at the end - provided running away doesn't bore you much), dumb AI that leads into dumber techniques to abuse it (as mentioned before), and Zelda gameplay (later half of the game).

 

[aquma]

While i agree with both some points from Diss and from 1eyedking, gothic had some shortcomings of it's own,that were equally distracting to me,as some of witcher's are.Like the absence of children and severe lack of women,making the story-progress completely faction dependant or the combat system which,at least for me,was completely boring,repetitive and unbalanced - imo,Witcher is,hands down,much better in this regard.But perhaps the greatest flaw Gothic series always had is,in my personal opinion,lack of truly solid,intrguing,original and enchanting story.Which is,for me,half of a good RPG.If not for the open ended and very nice,living world that was unique in it's time,there wouldn't be that much to do in Gothic.The stories served as an introduction and a drive - to a degree - but were overall rather simple and lacked dramatism or turning points.Most parts of them,considered alone,were very well executed and managed to make the player "feel" the world and the action (for example the dragon hunt in G2,or conflicts between camps in G1),but they lacked a bigger value as a whole,being very generic and unsurprising (You mean i get to be the Chosen one who will gather artifacts,save the world and kill the dragon(s) ?AGAIN?!).Which isn't to say i didn't enjoy them,because i did,but a bit more complicacy wouldn't hurt.

 

[username_2067959]

Funny you say that in a series where one of the game features a freaking MAGIC barrier. But anyway, more or less true; at least huge mountains and oceans blocking your path are more believable than a fence and/or invisible wall, though you get the feeling you're playing in Greece.

Well of course there are going to be barriers in a game. After all....it's a game. But as you point out in the second half of your sentence, those aren't the barriers I'm talking about. In the Witcher, it's those damn little fences I can't hop over, or an impenetrable hedge. World barriers are acceptable, but I cannot for the life of me understand why some of these barriers exist in Witcher. In fact, there's so much less available movement in the game, too. You can't crouch, can't jump, can't climb. All those things add a lot, imo.

Gothic's combat itself, however, is average in design. Magic and bows are ridiculously overpowered if you can get to inaccessible ground, and melee weapons offer no efficient way to deal with multiple enemies unless you resort to stupid, immersion-breaking techniques like getting behind a fence and exploiting reach, a building and waiting for the enemy to circle i, or using the infamous save/load trick to get enemies stuck behind doors. Also, no mana regeneration means you'll be drinking mana elixirs like crazy in a game where drinking potions is both hindered and scoffed at.

Well, that's the thing. Those early Gothic games weren't MEANT to have you facing multiple enemies, at least not more than 2 at a time. That's something that technology has given us in these games, the whole "mob" concept, where we can now fight hordes of enemies at once. I don't think any developer has yet figured out a way to do that without the combat simply becoming a mash-fest. Obviously Witcher is not a mash fest, and I think the whole "style" scheme in its combat is pretty clever. But I still wish I had more control over Geralt and his moves. The best combat I've ever experienced in a game similar to this is Blade of Darkness, where you learned a variety of combos and could dismember your opponents. It was bliss. But probably too complicated for the "masses" these days. If someone could resurrect that schematic and apply it to a new action RPG, I would be forever grateful....just sayin'....

And even though the rest of the points are very valid, Gothic is a game that is far from perfect.

Well sure, it definitely was not perfect by any means. But remember, it was also one of the first games to EVER take a shot at implementing some of these types of design decisions, and the first one came out in 2001. That's why I said I think the game should be used as a ROUGH blueprint for all action RPGs, because there's much to improve on, but also a TON of incredible, groundbreaking ideas that have been covered in this thread. Gothic even had the whole "sex with wenches" thing long before Witcher. Witcher did a lot of cool new things, too. The use of children, a more adult storyline, etc. But it just disappoints me that they did not do other things that a game like Gothic was doing seven years ago. And Gothic was the first game from Pirahnna Bytes, too. Again, I enjoy and respect The Witcher. I'm about to play it right now, in fact. But if it would have taken a few cues from Gothic, it might well have been the best RPG of all time. I think a combination of Gothic and The Witcher where the best elements are taken from both and combined with curent technology could've definitely been an all time great. I hope once the modding community gets the toolset that some of these things will be altered. For me, the worst thing is the overuse of the character models. I know some people just don't think about it, but it drives me nuts.

 

[username_2069465]

Like the absence of children and severe lack of women,making the story-progress completely faction dependant or the combat system [...] repetitive and unbalanced

The absence of children is pretty common in sandbox RPGs where nothing prevents you from killing them to prevent mature/adult ratings from regulatory entities (ESRB et al.). Women are absent in Gothic 1 because the barrier was erected around a penal colony, which justifies missing children as well.

But perhaps the greatest flaw Gothic series always had is,in my personal opinion,lack of truly solid,intrguing,original and enchanting story.Which is,for me,half of a good RPG.

Many an old-school gamer would disagree with you. Just ask any veteran Wizardry, M&M, RoA, or Elder Scrolls (Arena & DF) player and they'll say stories are secondary in the face of gameplay mechanics and individual character interaction.As of yet, there haven't been any 'original, solid, intriguing and enchanting' stories so far in CRPGs besides Planescape: Torment. And that game was seriously lacking in the gameplay department.[quote author=Diss]Well of course there are going to be barriers in a game. After all....it's a game. But as you point out in the second half of your sentence, those aren't the barriers I'm talking about. In the Witcher, it's those damn little fences I can't hop over, or an impenetrable hedge. World barriers are acceptable, but I cannot for the life of me understand why some of these barriers exist in Witcher. In fact, there's so much less available movement in the game, too. You can't crouch, can't jump, can't climb. All those things add a lot, imo.[/QUOTE]The Witcher is not about crouching, jumping, nor climbing: the Witcher delivers in other departments, as it was never meant to be an exploration game ala Elder Scrolls/Gothic. Furthermore, you couldn't do those actions in games like Fallout, PS:T, Baldur's Gate, and many others and they were still very immersing. You could even say they're the bastard child of FPS and action games, thus frankly, they don't much to the role-playing department, the defining characteristic of RPGs.[quote author=Diss]Well, that's the thing. Those early Gothic games weren't MEANT to have you facing multiple enemies, at least not more than 2 at a time.[/QUOTE]Yes they were meant. Orcs, scavengers, wolves, and many other animals were specifically scripted to attack in large packs.[quote author=Diss]Gothic even had the whole "sex with wenches" thing long before Witcher.[/QUOTE]What? You could have sex with prostitutes in Wasteland (1988). That's fourteen years before Gothic. There's also the Ultima VII (1992), Fallout (1997), and plenty of others that don't come to mind right now.[quote author=Diss]Well sure, it definitely was not perfect by any means. But remember, it was also one of the first games to EVER take a shot at implementing some of these types of design decisions, and the first one came out in 2001. That's why I said I think the game should be used as a ROUGH blueprint for all action RPGs, because there's much to improve on, but also a TON of incredible, groundbreaking ideas that have been covered in this thread.[/QUOTE]Gothic didn't introduce anything that hadn't been done before, much less something groundbreaking.

Witcher did a lot of cool new things, too. The use of children, a more adult storyline, etc. But it just disappoints me that they did not do other things that a game like Gothic was doing seven years ago.

The Witcher doesn't need to do any of Gothic's stuff simply because it's gameplay emphasis lies elsewhere, as I mentioned before.

And Gothic was the first game from Pirahnna Bytes, too.

The Witcher is CDProjekt Red's first game as well.

 

[steelwizard]

I very much enjoyed the first Two Gothic games. It took almost a full year for me to track down Night of The Raven (Gothic II Gold) but it was well worth it. As has been discussed, those games had their drawbacks but when each is taken as a whole, the sum of the parts, good and bad, did combine to make each an excellent game. I felt that The Witcher provided a great story, while it hindered the way in which I pursued it, yet the Gothic games offered rather mediocre storytelling, set within a world in which I was able to pursue it in my own way. I wouldn't like to have to choose a preferred development method - to be uninspired by the story, yet free to approach it as I please - or, to be compelled to find out what happens next, in a world that restricts my actions within itself. I guess that ideally, I'd have it all. As 1EyedKing hinted at; only some old-school isometric games come to mind. Though I'd add PS:T to my list. I agree that the gameplay wasn't exactly riveting but it did at least provide gameplay opportunities that many have since forgotten and even more have never experienced. I think it did a fantastic job of creating an exceptional story and numerous side-quests whose content would surpass the entire plot of many games released this century and often, various ways in which to complete them, via gameplay options. It has been several years since I've played it but I don't recall the character progression being any less interesting than that of The Witcher. Gothic on the other hand, did a fairly decent job of accommodating the statistic fiend. Obviously not Fallout or Baldur's Gate quality but choice none-the-less.

 

[username_2069465]

[quote author=SteelWizard]As 1EyedKing hinted at; only some old-school isometric games come to mind.[/QUOTE]What 'old-school' isometric games?

 

[parket]

But I still wish I had more control over Geralt and his moves. The best combat I've ever experienced in a game similar to this is Blade of Darkness, where you learned a variety of combos and could dismember your opponents. It was bliss. But probably too complicated for the "masses" these days. If someone could resurrect that schematic and apply it to a new action RPG, I would be forever grateful....just sayin'....

Never tried that one. But for detailed combat, it would be hard to beat Die by the Sword in VSIM mode (old game, but the demo can still be found in some places). You could use the mouse to move the sword around, there were no premade moves. Of course, that would also mean the whole sword talent system in The Witcher would have to be abandoned, as only the mouse-wielding skill of the player determines how well his strikes work. I don't think it'd be easy to do. Besides, Die by the Sword is REALLY hard. There's another, more modern, game with a similar system, Determinance. Also worth checking out if you like this stuff. But both of those are basically swordfighting games, not RPGs.For something that is a bit closer, and that could work in a game like The Witcher, there's Jedi Knight 2 (great game). An FPS, but lots of lightsaber combat (which could be done as FPS or third person, camera behind the back). There, strikes were determined by movement at the time of the strike. For example, sidestrafe to the right, and attack. The lightsaber will then sweep from left to right, even if you change movement direction (so you could do a horizontal slash while moving forward, as long as you tapped strafe right the instant you start the slash). There are some similarities with The Witcher. There were three styles, earned as the game progressed (tradeoffs between blaster deflection and force of the attack). It also had some special attacks, triggered by some specific movement. And of course, it had signs (well, force powers). That system is something that could actually work in The Witcher, at least for those who play in OTS mode. In isometric, probably not.

 

[chabalxv]

I must confess to feeling a little giddy with joy at being in the company of people who actually remember so many great games, let alone be able to name them and recall their dynamics of gameplay and storylines.I`m ashamed to admit I havent heard of or seen the Gothic games, but rest assured, i will be hunting down both of them after reading enough in this thread to be very interested.I think what discussions like this throw up time after time is... two things.One man or woman`s idea of perfection, is another player`s idea of frustration or disinterest.andThere can not, will not, and should not, ever be a "perfect" cRPG.It is the goal of programmers like the makers of Witcher to forever strive to "Perfect" their idea of what the genre should bring, and the more people who dedicate their skills and time and money to striving for such a lofty goal, the more great games there are for us, the players and fans, to try out and then debate the failings and kudos of those games.Isnt this what life is about? the greatest Role play game there is...real life.Striving to improve by changing this, tweaking that, accepting this, overcoming that.My own personal favourite game of all time is Fallout 2. Man, that game had bugs and crashes and so many little bits and pieces that were both frustrating and endearing. But what a game!!!!! I can recall way way way back in the 80`s playing the weirdest rpg of all called lords of Chaos, a turn based flattened top down game of wraiths and dragons and spells. Most said it was unplayable... just as Fallout 1 and 2 were widely dumped in the "Too difficult" bin by many casual rpg`ers. But the common thread amongst a number of games that are hated by many and loved by an awful lot is..innovation.Innovation in computer games is a risky business...and whichever software house has the cojones to go for it has to be applauded, even when they fall flat on their face. Why? because without innovation, their can be no progression.An example...Fallout3.Oh, how many years did I spend searching for the remotest mention of "Van Buren" on messageboards or google or Yahoo... its rights have been sold, dumped, sold, dropped, resold, passed on...because the weight of expectation by the players in the know, is monumental.Its due out this year... and while the screenshots look tempting, I`m pretty sure its going to be slaughtered and vilified by ALL factions.But hot damn, you have to admire the programmers for taking the project up and putting money into having a go at it.All in all, Ive enjoyed this thread, despite it almost generating into a "no it isnt" ..."yes it is"... Monty Python-esque Argument sketch.What Ive enjoyed most though is reading genuine opinions from people who love the genre. THAT..is healthy. Now..I`m off to look for Gothic 1 and 2.feel free to add suggestions for more..and more..of these wonderful flawed masterpieces.

 

[eccer]

Gothic Fans...please back me up!! ;D

I will, and yes, if you haven't played Gothic 1-2.. then you have missed a part of your life. ps: for starters.. try gothic 2 first, as it is easier and more fun.

 

[telimaktar]

I'm with you ChabalXv . For instance I loved Baldur's Gate 2 and is my favorite RPG to date but I was never able to get into Neverwinter Nights and I bought the pack containing everything, expansions and add-ons. I really enjoyed Fable: The Lost Chapters(played through 3 times) which is what I loosely compare Witcher to. I enjoyed Fallout and only just started Fallout 2 which I never finished. Planescape Torment was also a great game.But I don't expect any one to be like any other, if that were the case I'd get bored. It'd then be like everything else. And while I would like to play Witcher and jump over fences and so on, the limits are what challenge. And this is CDProjekt Red's first game and I must say I am impressed. This is a taste of things to come.Thanks to this thread I'll be purchasing Gothic Universe later this year, hope it isn't as repetitive as Oblivion was.

 

[viz79]

Just a note on Neverwinter Nights - that game came into its own online - with the Aurora Toolkit people were able to creat their own campaigns and lands. I played in six man campaigns with dungeonmasters (weekely sessions) and there is no roleplaying like that where the npc you are talking to is actually being 'played' by a real person and you can do anything you want to in a situation and a DM can facilitate it. Examples of that is a module I played called Desperate Measures. 3 hours to escape Deathrow from a cell with 5 other inmates and dungeonmasters facilitating your imaginations in ways of escaping while playing the jailors. Played, loved it, and then even ran it with friends so we did it from the other side.And the best was when I ran my own campaign with friends - a world I created myself and a story that ran over a year with weekly sessions. Put around 500 hours into that game and I had hoped it would continue with NWN2 but they never put much effort into the MP side of that one. A real shame as there isnt anything like NWN and the DM side of that game seems to have passed its heyday. Still there are many online words and downloadable modules that builders created with great stories and adventures. If you can get over the dated visuals.

 

[wurm]

But perhaps the greatest flaw Gothic series always had is,in my personal opinion,lack of truly solid,intrguing,original and enchanting story.Which is,for me,half of a good RPG.If not for the open ended and very nice,living world that was unique in it's time,there wouldn't be that much to do in Gothic.The stories served as an introduction and a drive - to a degree - but were overall rather simple and lacked dramatism or turning points.Most parts of them,considered alone,were very well executed and managed to make the player "feel" the world and the action (for example the dragon hunt in G2,or conflicts between camps in G1),but they lacked a bigger value as a whole,being very generic and unsurprising (You mean i get to be the Chosen one who will gather artifacts,save the world and kill the dragon(s) ?AGAIN?!).

I played Gothic 1, 2 and 3 in German... and there is plenty of story there and some great voice acting as well (maybe something was lost in the translation?) 3 was buggy as hell but as far as I can see so is the Witcher. I've been waiting for the new version before buying just for that reason. Morrowind had so much story that one had to seriously control the urge to fast click through the dialog because you could miss something important. Oblivion was so-so on both.The Witcher has an incredible story but unless someone has read the books, they are left wondering why is this all happening.No RPG is perfect, Baldur's Gate 2 had the best inter-party interaction of any game I've ever played but it wasn't even close to perfect.Fallout was a great RPG, but sometimes you had to shoot your companion in the head and kill him / her just to get them out of the doorway they blocked you in.So yes I agree with the original poster that the Gothic series is a must play.NWN is also a great game, and has some of the best online play out there.

 

[cassandra31eee]

I haven't seen a game like Gothic (1). It has such a unique atmosphere (really Gothic!) that you can't never forget. And you have to admit, all of you who played the game, that the story is unique, too.All the game is on a prison-island, magically shielded, while things in the country get more and more dangerous. The kingdom have problems, the king must deal with these problems, but do the prisoners give a shit ? Or they just want to stay alive another one day in this damn island? ( because leaving is not in their dreams anymore)...And the music will stuck on your mind, for sure.As for the fighting system (only keyboard, you can forget about mouse) is so realistic that you 'll feel totally inside the game's world.Gothic is a game for adults, like The Witcher, and has also a sense of humor and some details i badly missed in other games. Gothic and Gothic 2 are the best (with the add-on, which is perfect). G3 has a deep story too, and humor, but they made it more "easy", more childish.

 

[username_2075709]

I had shelved G3 for a long time but this thread got me interested in giving it another try.Previously I'd tried unpatched and gave up at my first destroy angry boars quest since up till that point I'd spent the majority of time getting knocked onto my arse.After patching I started again, owned those boars and now I've finished the whole game.If you like Gothic games it's worth playing but I didn't like the combat as much as G2.If you've no idea on Gothic games be prepared to cover a huge amount of territory with a very nondescript map to complete quests. Nothing like the Witcher quest tracking to help you. You're on your own and the landscapes can be confusing and they're massive.

 

[Corylea.723]

No RPG is perfect, Baldur's Gate 2 had the best inter-party interaction of any game I've ever played but it wasn't even close to perfect.

I still miss Minsc. Some of the things he said were really funny, and I thought the actor who voiced him was a lot better than most of the other actors. And he didn't give me any lip -- "You point, I punch" -- that's what I want to hear from my party.

 

[username_2075709]

I still miss Minsc. Some of the things he said were really funny, and I thought the actor who voiced him was a lot better than most of the other actors. And he didn't give me any lip -- "You point, I punch" -- that's what I want to hear from my party.

I played through BG2 quite a few times and only twice didn't have Minsc.Once when I only let females join the party and once as fully evil party.edit: now I think of it I never played fully evil because I always had Imoen.

 

[candesco]

Morrowind had so much story that one had to seriously control the urge to fast click through the dialog because you could miss something important. Oblivion was so-so on both.

There is just one story in Morrowind and that is that you will be a reîïncarnated dunmer general who unites the dunmer, cast down the false gods and defeat dagoth ur.Fast click through dialogue is not an option as you play a rpg and must explore alot of yourself. If someone fast click, then rpg is nothing for that person. Especially in Morrowind you have to have alot of patience. Morrowind is a game with depth and is also a real rpg. Oblivion missed that thing and doesn't also have a big story. I haven't played Gothic. Sometimes i wonder if i must buy gothic 3, but then also read alot of the problems with the game. But there are also some patches for it that fixes alot of bugs.I think that the game is now just fine to play it. Maybe i buy the whole serie. I played Diablo II, Oblivion and i'm now busy with Morrowind. I like Morrowind aloit. Great game. If you like to explore yourself and talk to npc's to get some clues, then Morrowind is something for you.No map markers, no fast travel, no running, just easy walk and explore the world for yourself. And you can join many factions. The Witcher is also a great game, with a good story and the many new inventions. Enjoyed the game and i think i will start a new game sometimes when the big update is out.

 

[username_2075709]

I haven't played Gothic. Sometimes i wonder if i must buy gothic 3,

You must buy Gothic2 and Night of the Raven first.There's just no excuse not to, you can get it new online for the price of a box of cereal.

 

[kawalorn]

Hey im a big fan of Gothic i finished gothic 1 likw 20 times gothic 2 like 10 and gothic 3 once il play again when ill upgrade my computer.As for night of the raven i dont't like it especialy stupid changes in ability points requaired. But still its my favorite game rpg.Its so sad that piranha bites lost it and now someone other will make it. :'(