Why I detest removal in this game.

[Shadow-Stalker]

Why I detest removal in this game.

1. It completely detracts from what Gwent is and was.
2. It renders the old lock cards completely useless and only encourages this point spam meta. Why lock something when you can kill it. Who needs to buff D-Shackles or silver lock cards when you can thunder everything for more effective points. Point spam is still point spam when you remove your opponents points. And since everything is tutored now... Well this makes everything worse.
3. As a follow up of #2, you need not worry about progressive engine cards or any over time effect as no one plays them because a bronze card will deal with anything you want off the board ever. Thus removal completely limits the amount of decks you can actually play. Where-as lock cards only made you run your own lock cards.
4. It's boring as fuck playing against someone using said removal. 'Oh look, I played a card'.-- 'Oh look, my opponent just undone the card I played.'-- How fun and reactive... And as the above point mentioned; It's too bad I can't undead my cards because I used to be able to unlock them.

Gwent always used to be relative to chess, but now it's like playing chess where both players play the white pieces and your opponent continually moves your pawns back to their starting spot. And like with most of gwent in its current state, I don't see how that is fun.

 

[SHALLAHJUSTICE]

So you just want me to look at those Mongonels and vrihedd brigades instead?

 

[oOxhaosOo]

Hm maybe when a locked target stays locked even when you ressurect it?
it would make locking something better then just killing it.

 

[Snake_Foxhounder]

Removal is great. The issue is that the game devolved into spamming points and engines, that didn't keep up with the power creep, are pretty much useless. Why set up enforcers when you can spam bears for much better value?

 

[Shadow-Stalker]

So you just want me to look at those Mongonels and vrihedd brigades instead?

I mean you could lock them like you used to. But I don't suppose you read that far into the post.

I just remember the good times when every faction didn't have 5 tutored zaps and a zap on their silver mage and a zap on three of their gold cards.


Back in the day we had a handful of extremely potent extremely obvious control cards, those that playing around was a minigame on its own, it was constructive and it was fun, they added to the depth and enjoyment of gwent.

Now though, we have to play against scorch, igni, second scorch, second igni, third scorch, fourth scorth, vilentretinmeth, artifact compression, second artifact compression, artifact compression's big sister; coral, alzurs thunder tutored so much you're guaranteed to play it 9 times, muzzle, mandrake, mandrakes bigger brother; tutored mandrake, every single silver mage card going. Every silver mage got from the create mechanic every... And so on.

And how can you balance these cards, you ask? By giving their point based counter parts more points.

This is why the phrase 'Less is more' exists.

 

[Khreygond]

I think you are overreacting on some parts of your post. Engine cards, at least some of them, still see a lot of play, namely Mangonels, Longships, Greatswords, Vrihedd Brigades. Removal was always an option, even back then, when Radovid and Iorveth would remove any target from the board.When Elven Mercenary tutored special cards like Alzur's Thunder. When Rot Tossers triggered at the start of your turn so your opponent would throw the cow carcass on an empty row and then play his silver spy there. When EVERYONE ran Yennefer: Conjurer and I do mean EVERYONE and you could not lock it, because golds were immune, you could only remove it if you played Radovid or Iorveth (or a dimeritium card to make it silver and then damage it)

And as you put it, "Back in the day" things with scorch were actually worse than the so called "scorch, igni, second scorch, second igni, third scorch, fourth scorth, vilentretinmeth". Considering the Scoia Scorch spam sequence was usually Schirru, Scorch, Nature's Gift into Second Scorch, Eithne into Third scorch, Aglais into 4th scorch, Geralt:Igni and sometimes, Villentretenmerth (back then a double scorch).

I will agree on the fact that we need more engines though admittedly. There were some amazing cards back then like the old Wardancers (boost by 3 whenever you play an ambush) or the old Vrihedd sappers (STR 4 spying, whenever you play a special card, damage the whole row) Now Scoia'tael cards are:

Dol Blathanna Archer (largely unchanged but you'll see where I am getting): 11 points no setup
Dwarven Mercenary/Guard/Skirmisher: 11 - 12 points with minimal to no setup
Agitator: slaps 1 point on a dwarf, so 12 - 13 points with minimal to no setup
Half Elf Hunter: 12 points, no setup, triggers elven abilities
Elven Scout: Great defense option, usually 10 -12 points, also no setup required
Commando Neophyte: 12 points no setup
Hawker Healer: 11 points no setup

Like, there's so many of those that could and MUST be repurposed. For me, Giving the Dwarven mercenary his old ability, maybe slightly tweaked (was: boost by 2 for every dwarf on your side. Maybe make that 1), and giving some of these ambush synergy would go a long way into actually giving the Scoia a pure archetype, which they currently lack aside from the elven swarm ( and how much of an archetype it is is contestable)

 

[Shadow-Stalker]

I think you are overreacting on some parts of your post. Engine cards, at least some of them, still see a lot of play, namely Mangonels, Longships, Greatswords, Vrihedd Brigades. Removal was always an option, even back then, when Radovid and Iorveth would remove any target from the board.When Elven Mercenary tutored special cards like Alzur's Thunder. When Rot Tossers triggered at the start of your turn so your opponent would throw the cow carcass on an empty row and then play his silver spy there. When EVERYONE ran Yennefer: Conjurer and I do mean EVERYONE and you could not lock it, because golds were immune, you could only remove it if you played Radovid or Iorveth.

Typically those which can be revived. Again, point spam. You have just undone the action your opponent did to undo your previous action. Fun right?
Removal was an option yes, but it was considerably harder as thunder wasn't in range of every single bronze unit you would ever want to destroy.
And you could lock yennifer, only with D-Shackles.

The problem is that back in the day all that was needed were minor changes and things would've been fixed. They decided to completely overhaul the game multiple times.

And now we need a complete overhaul all we get are minor changes. That's not a kick in the balls or anything.

 

[Kingoko]

Imo alzurs should be nerfed back to 7 points. Why? They will still kill almost all engine witch is already OP. (mangonels, enforcers, brigades, archespors, all nr machines, sk drakkars, mahakam traper, and many more. But if opponents don't have engines left then it will be max 7 points instead of good value 9 points.

 

[TheNotoriousThree]

Well said, it's an equally awful version of point spamming. Why set up anything when you can simply remove all the engines your opponent had and can play a bunch of cards that get their full value on deploy anyway.

They should never have introduced tutors and this create nonsense, it turned out to be a bigger problem than it is a good thing. They did it for diversity and more complexity I suppose but it completely dumbed Gwent down ultimately, atleast the way I see it.

 

[oOxhaosOo]

Hm maybe then the locks lasting over ressurection and take away alzurs thunder from the silver mage cards?
That would reduce the destruction of engines and would make locks more usefull.

 

[Khreygond]

but it was considerably harder as thunder wasn't in range of every single bronze unit you would ever want to destroy.
And you could lock yennifer, only with D-Shackles.

The problem is that back in the day all that was needed were minor changes and things would've been fixed. They decided to completely overhaul the game multiple times.

Sadly it was. Alzur's Thunder was 7 points of damage. The nominal bronze's power was 8. That means Fiends with no ability were 8 points, as were the rest of the "no ability" units. Nothing else came that close. LITERALLY every bronze unit with an active/timed ability could fall to Alzur's Thunder.

Old Wardancers were Strength 2. Old Arachas Behemoth was 6 I think. Old Sappers were 4. Old Dun Banner Heavy Cavalry was 6 I think and would be promoted after 3 turns or so. Weather immune units were all STR 7. You couldn't lock a unit with D-Shackles, D-shackles reset a unit to its base power and converted it from gold to silver (or bronze if that was its original color). D-Bomb did the same but for the whole row (I've had a 120-something point swing with D-Bomb. Yes. Against enemy Margarita and Henselt decks. Margarita created a lot of tokens, whenever a gold unit appeared on your side, so Henselt promoted an entire row to gold, doubling the amount of tokens and increasing their strength and the enemy reached 300 points or so. Still think it was alright and only needed "a couple of fixes" here and there?)

Your only option was to convert it to silver (assuming you had D-Bomb or Shackles of course) AND THEN remove it or lock it.

Don't forget everyone played the same 2 decks as well (Skellige and Scoia Scorch Spam with a couple of Arachas behemoth consume and weather decks here and there. That was it. That's all we've had. Even the current meta has more variation). That's way too far off a game that just needed small fixes, an overhaul was necessary.

 

[Shadow-Stalker]

Sadly it was. Alzur's Thunder was 7 points of damage. The nominal bronze's power was 8. That means Fiends with no ability were 8 points, as were the rest of the "no ability" units. Nothing else came that close. LITERALLY every bronze unit with an active/timed ability could fall to Alzur's Thunder.

Old Wardancers were Strength 2. Old Arachas Behemoth was 6 I think. Old Sappers were 4. Old Dun Banner Heavy Cavalry was 6 I think and would be promoted after 3 turns or so. Weather immune units were all STR 7. You couldn't lock a unit with D-Shackles, D-shackles reset a unit to its base power and converted it from gold to silver (or bronze if that was its original color). D-Bomb did the same but for the whole row (I've had a 120-something point swing with D-Bomb. Yes. Against enemy Margarita and Henselt decks. Margarita created a lot of tokens, whenever a gold unit appeared on your side, so Henselt promoted an entire row to gold, doubling the amount of tokens and increasing their strength and the enemy reached 300 points or so. Still think it was alright and only needed "a couple of fixes" here and there?)

Your only option was to convert it to silver (assuming you had D-Bomb or Shackles of course) AND THEN remove it or lock it.

Don't forget everyone played the same 2 decks as well (Skellige and Scoia Scorch Spam with a couple of Arachas behemoth consume and weather decks here and there. That was it. That's all we've had. Even the current meta has more variation). That's way too far off a game that just needed small fixes, an overhaul was necessary.

This guy, this is the type of guy that makes arguments about how being alive is the primary cause of 100% of deaths.

Choosing to ignore the stage of the game I am actually referencing in a bid to defend the game you love when it's going down the shitter, and that's the exact reason it is going down it...

So yes, I do still think it was fantastic and would have been fine with a few tweaks here and there.

 

[TrompeLaMort]

Well said, it's an equally awful version of point spamming. Why set up anything when you can simply remove all the engines your opponent had and can play a bunch of cards that get their full value on deploy anyway.

They should never have introduced tutors and this create nonsense, it turned out to be a bigger problem than it is a good thing. They did it for diversity and more complexity I suppose but it completely dumbed Gwent down ultimately, atleast the way I see it.

I finally got the proof that it is exactly the same people that complain Gwent is not-interactive (point-spamming) and complain about removal, which is the main form of interaction in any game.

"Oh no, my opponent has a way to fight back against my 40-point red-coin Voorhis, this game is so unbalanced!"

 

[Khreygond]

Choosing to ignore the stage of the game I am actually referencing in a bid to defend the game you love when it's going down the shitter, and that's the exact reason it is going down it...

Right. So me explaining to you why removal has always existed and actually, back then it genuinely could remove any bronze with an active ability (it cannot remove WH riders or alpha werewolves now for example ) is me being the reason the game sucks.

well played.

Now on a more serious note and ignoring your insults, I did and do agree that we need more engines. Meaning that no, I don't think the game is perfect, it has quite a number of flaws. Would I like it if locks were more prevalent? Sure. But has that ever been the case like you insinuated it was? Nope.

I did not ignore a single thing that you said, quite ironically that's your doing now. I merely pointed out that removal always existed and was always a more prevalent option than locks. Since the beginning of this game.

Fantastic huh? If your deck was none of the four I mentioned then you probably were losing every second game and sometimes more. If it was, well nice variation and engines you were playing.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

1. It completely detracts from what Gwent is and was.
2. It renders the old lock cards completely useless and only encourages this point spam meta. Why lock something when you can kill it. Who needs to buff D-Shackles or silver lock cards when you can thunder everything for more effective points. Point spam is still point spam when you remove your opponents points. And since everything is tutored now... Well this makes everything worse.
3. As a follow up of #2, you need not worry about progressive engine cards or any over time effect as no one plays them because a bronze card will deal with anything you want off the board ever. Thus removal completely limits the amount of decks you can actually play. Where-as lock cards only made you run your own lock cards.
4. It's boring as fuck playing against someone using said removal. 'Oh look, I played a card'.-- 'Oh look, my opponent just undone the card I played.'-- How fun and reactive... And as the above point mentioned; It's too bad I can't undead my cards because I used to be able to unlock them.

Gwent always used to be relative to chess, but now it's like playing chess where both players play the white pieces and your opponent continually moves your pawns back to their starting spot. And like with most of gwent in its current state, I don't see how that is fun.

I tried to understand your complaints and I couldn't. You are somehow simultaneously complaining about removal and point spam. I am at a loss for words.

Also, removal does not detract from what Gwent is and was.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

So yes, I do still think it was fantastic and would have been fine with a few tweaks here and there.

If you are referring to back when golds were immune to damage then I completely disagree. The game had an infinite amount of issues because of that. It was a design nightmare.

 

[Shadow-Stalker]

I tried to understand your complaints and I couldn't. You are somehow simultaneously complaining about removal and point spam. I am at a loss for words.

Also, removal does not detract from what Gwent is and was.

Then perhaps you should look at the correlation between point spam and removal.

 

[Shadow-Stalker]

I finally got the proof that it is exactly the same people that complain Gwent is not-interactive (point-spamming) and complain about removal, which is the main form of interaction in any game.

"Oh no, my opponent has a way to fight back against my 40-point red-coin Voorhis, this game is so unbalanced!"

Finally, I have proof that people that play card games somehow simply do not understand the fundamentals of card games. It is not about removal it is about the implementation.

'Oh god my opponent actually has a chance because he is running that one bronze card.' Is not at all on the same lines as; 'Oh no my opponent renders my deck completely useless because he is playing that one bronze card that every deck now has a variation of so therefor my deck went from being useful in 50% of matchups to useless in all of them.'

Try to read that last bit real quick, I find it adds to the punch.

Maybe the problem would actually lay within... Hmmm... Oh yes, reveal.

"Let's nerf ithlinne by not nerfing ithlinne and adjusting bronze spells instead."

 

[Draconifors]

This is threatening to turn into a skirmish. Please, leave out the hostility before it turns into direct personal insults.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Then perhaps you should look at the correlation between point spam and removal.

Still have no idea how you can somehow complain about both. Removal is what keeps point spam in check.