Hacking/engineering autoresolve

[Harthwain]

It works like that in CP2020.

Here's an example; Johnny Silverhand needs to break into a locked room, a task the Referee considers to require some training. As such, it has a Difficulty of 15. Johnny's most applicable stat if Technical, because this is a Task that requires manipulating a mechanical object. Johnny isn't much of techie (his Tech stat is only +3, enough to fix guitar strings and plug in his amp). But Johnny also picked up Pick Lock +3 as one of early Pickup skills. This gives him a Base Ability of 6. Johnny will need roll at least a 9 to pick this lock.

There is also:

- Automatic Fail (when you roll 1), after which you need to a roll again in order to find out how bad the result of your fumble will be.

- Critical Success (when you roll 10), where you are able to roll an extra die and can sum up the results of both rolls, allowing you to do better than you'd normally be able to.

 

[mhl333]

It works like that in CP2020.

There is also:

- Automatic Fail (when you roll 1), after which you need to a roll again in order to find out how bad the result of your fumble will be.

- Critical Success (when you roll 10), where you are able to roll an extra die and can sum up the results of both rolls, allowing you to do better than you'd normally be able to.

And there could be also 100% success attempt in CP77 but only if your skill level highly exceeds required level.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Exactly. Skills should make things easier, not possible/impossible. In rl you also make mistakes and there should be at least some probabili to fail either in autoresolve feature or from player input.

Yes indeed.

Although, the player input towards the fail should only be a factor in the outcome, not the sole cause.

I'd be perfectly fine with a simple diceroll check with a bit of animation coupled with it, but people tend to complain if it's just that just like they complain about it for how it is now (in the demo). That's why I wrote the wall of text (of which I don't know if anyone actually read it) for a suggestion that pushes for both; where character ability is influenced by player input.

 

[helios969]

Smart approach might be to provide both avenues since you have some that enjoy mental puzzles and those that find them boring or are too impatient. In a world were mega processing power is reality having cracking devices to auto-hack seems a reasonable solution. You could even integrate it as part of a critical path for a quest. A) Manually hack into a system (provided you invested enough into the skill; B) Secure a tier 9 cracking chip to gain access to the system (secure could mean negotiate/barter, steal, or threaten/use violence).

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Wrong.

Like I said before, Kingdom Come: Deliverance does this. And it's important there, because of how the saving works.

If your Henry is very bad (as a character) in pickpocketing, you're more likely to fumble and get cought by your victim. When this happens you can either reload (which, given how saves works, could mean losing an X amount of real time) or live with the consequences of your actions. By having more skill - as Henry - you are much more likely to succeed - as a player - which, in my opinion, proves that there is a merit in having a skill while also allowing for player's input during an action that uses said skill.

Actually that kind of behavior is punished instead of rewarded during our pen and paper games, because it leads to munchkinization (for example one of our players did take advantage of that he was a very good orator to put no points in his social skill and all in his fighting skills).

 

[Harthwain]

Actually that kind of behavior is punished instead of rewarded during our pen and paper games, because it leads to munchkinization (for example one of our players did take advantage of that he was a very good orator to put no points in his social skill and all in his fighting skills).

I don't understand. What kind of behavior?

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

I don't understand. What kind of behavior?

Having the player to do things well when the character is bad at it.

 

[mhl333]

Having the player to do things well when the character is bad at it.

All depends on how this will be implemented. You can do it in a way that having too low skill can actually prevent you doing something.

Check my post at https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...ngineering-autoresolve.10980575/post-11101025 regarding engineering skill proposition. If you are up to 3 levels below requirements you can try as you have 3!=6 possible solutions but with 4 levels below required you have 4!=24 solutions so it is not that simple any more and starting with 5 (5!=120 solutions) it starts to be impossible. So as you can see in my proposition your skill level has major impact for your success and you won't be able to succeed without developing that skill.

 

[Harthwain]

Having the player to do things well when the character is bad at it.

I still don't understand. How can he consistently do well in PnP if his character is bad at doing stuff? Where is the link between that and what I said about KC: D's system, in which a seemingly easy task can be very hard to accomplish when you don't have enough skill, even with player's input allowed?

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

All depends on how this will be implemented. You can do it in a way that having too low skill can actually prevent you doing something.

Check my post at https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...ngineering-autoresolve.10980575/post-11101025 regarding engineering skill proposition. If you are up to 3 levels below requirements you can try as you have 3!=6 possible solutions but with 4 levels below required you have 4!=24 solutions so it is not that simple any more and starting with 5 (5!=120 solutions) it starts to be impossible. So as you can see in my proposition your skill level has major impact for your success and you won't be able to succeed without developing that skill.

If they can make it fun and short, why not.

Post automatically merged: Sep 9, 2018

I still don't understand. How can he consistently do well in PnP if his character is bad at doing stuff? Where is the link between that and what I said about KC: D's system, in which a seemingly easy task can be very hard to accomplish when you don't have enough skill, even with player's input allowed?

Because in pen and papers you don't roll dices everytime you open your mouth, plus there can be huge bonus from roleplay.
And the link is bad roleplay.
Being able to do what the character can't is bad roleplay.
Not being able to do what the character can is bad roleplay too.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Being able to do what the character can't is bad roleplay.
Not being able to do what the character can is bad roleplay too.

Very true.

 

[Harthwain]

And the link is bad roleplay.

Except there is none. I suspected this, but needed a confirmation.

Being able to do what the character can't is bad roleplay.
Not being able to do what the character can is bad roleplay too.

Skills impacting your ability to do things (by either making them easier or harder) is good roleplay though. In fact, that's the whole purpose of having skills when deciding between success or failure in PnP.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Skills impacting your ability to do things (by either making them easier or harder) is good roleplay though. In fact, that's the whole purpose of having skills when deciding between success or failure in PnP.

The problem is not skills affecting the outcome of an action (cause that's what I support), It's the player being able to compensate lack of character skills with his own videogame skills, or on the contrary player failing an action because of his lacks of videogame skills when his character is highly competent.

 

[mhl333]

The problem is not skills affecting the outcome of an action (cause that's what I support), It's the player being able to compensate lack of character skills with his own videogame skills, or on the contrary player failing an action because of his lacks of videogame skills when his character is highly competent.

So you should be more worried about shooting rather than hacking/engineering as for the moment this is the only player based skill I've noticed in this game ;]

 

[maffaxxx]

So you should be more worried about shooting rather than hacking/engineering as for the moment this is the only player based skill I've noticed in this game ;]

thats what i was saying before.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

So you should be more worried about shooting rather than hacking/engineering as for the moment this is the only player based skill I've noticed in this game ;]

I don't plan to shoot anything: avoid fight to the max, just go mindless melee when I don't have a choice and if it doesn't work lower game difficulty.
It's not like combats seems a lots of fun to me anyway.

 

[Harthwain]

The problem is not skills affecting the outcome of an action (cause that's what I support), It's the player being able to compensate lack of character skills with his own videogame skills, or on the contrary player failing an action because of his lacks of videogame skills when his character is highly competent.

Well, I guess Morrowind would suit you better then.

Personally I don't mind how Kingdom Come: Deliverance did it, because it really feels like you are getting better with time (and as the in-game skills improve by being used), which is effectively what CP2020 tries to represent with its PnP mechanics.

 

[Suhiira]

The problem is not skills affecting the outcome of an action (cause that's what I support), It's the player being able to compensate lack of character skills with his own videogame skills, or on the contrary player failing an action because of his lacks of videogame skills when his character is highly competent.

And this is the core difference between an RPG and other types of games.

While player skills of course play a significant role, the player decides what to do and when the success/failure in an RPG is determined by character, not player, skill.

 

[Harthwain]

And this is the core difference between an RPG and other types of games.

While player skills of course play a significant role, the player decides what to do and when the success/failure in an RPG is determined by character, not player, skill.

Yet that's only because there are no other means by which the player can control his character in PnP. In video games it's possible to use in-game controls as a proxy to have influence over what the player's character is doing. So as long as the player is still sufficiently impacted by character's skills there isn't all that much of a difference.

 

[Suhiira]

Yet that's only because there are no other means by which the player can control his character in PnP. In video games it's possible to use in-game controls as a proxy to have influence over what the player's character is doing. So as long as the player is still sufficiently impacted by character's skills there isn't all that much of a difference.

But by the same tolken the character is limited to what the player can, and can't do. If you're not say an expert racing sim player your character can never be an expert driver.