Matchmaking still flawed?

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My deck runs Yrden, and I often get big monsters matchups. I run artifact removal, and run into plenty of decks that run artifacts.

That is, of course, just an opposite example of subjective experiences. Regardless, it strengthens my existing, strong belief that what was said a year ago is still true.

There isn't even anything that CDPR could possibly gain from "rigging" the matchmaking. It would make no sense, because as evidenced by this thread and several others, it would only cause players to be upset and annoyed -- which sounds like the exact opposite of what a game developer would aim for.

Bud, most game developers would use the beta stage of testing to release a full version game that their established community wanted, contributed to and helped shape......

CDPR released a single player, dumbed down version of Gwent with little/no resemblance to either Witcher Gwent or Gwent Beta, then stuck "multiplayer" on it!!

FIFA's momentum engine is the best example I can use of a company (EA) spending a lot of marketing dollars to see whether it was more compelling for players to keep winning, or for them to lose occasionally with the challenge being to "bounce back". They have found - and check their sales, users, profits - that ensuring players lose on occasion is better for the game. Of course they vehemently deny fixing things, but the evidence on Youtube and beyond is overwhelming no matter what EA claim. I'm a casual FIFA player, and most recently sailed through Seasons to Div 2. I'm now in Div 5 after a succession of weird mechanics and unfair matchups. Will I play it again? Just like with Gwent, yes, I will!!

I used the Yrden example before - I never faced Shupe as many times since I added Gimpy Gerwin into my deck!! Tired of facing Eldain and his traps? Simple - just put White Frost in your deck and you'll never see it again. Because of the binary removal there has to be an algorithm; Imagine you've got Epidemic vs Arachas Queen? Game over. Thankfully, with the CDPR algorithm, this NEVER happens.
 
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I understand what CPDR is saying that they don't look at decks, but something odd is really going on here.

I built a deck that had a lot of buffing to give it a try. Tried playing it and three games in a row the opponent had the counter to this to reset my units. I have played dozens and dozens of games over the last few weeks and had never once seen anyone play Geralt that resets all the cards, not once. Built my new deck and I saw it three times in a row.

Tried a new deck that had a lot of cards that gain charges, etc. Played it immediately after playing my buff deck and now all of a sudden I no longer see Geralt but now three matches in a row and all of a sudden the opponent has every single lock card that exists and removal. Said screw it, after multiple games built one more deck that relied on row stacking and guess what, every game no Geralt, no more locks, but opponent had every card that messed up my row stack, moved cards, damaged all on a row that removed almost everything, etc.

Insane how it changed every single time I built a new deck. Perfect counters for the specific deck I had time and again.
 
I built a deck that had a lot of buffing to give it a try. Tried playing it and three games in a row the opponent had the counter to this to reset my units. I have played dozens and dozens of games over the last few weeks and had never once seen anyone play Geralt that resets all the cards, not once. Built my new deck and I saw it three times in a row.

Not saying that there is no "algorithm" in effect in Gwent, but cards like Geralt: Yrden and Dorregaray(lock) get mulliganed in some matchups. Yrden would get mulliganed against Northern Realms, for example.
 
My deck runs Yrden, and I often get big monsters matchups. I run artifact removal, and run into plenty of decks that run artifacts.

That is, of course, just an opposite example of subjective experiences. Regardless, it strengthens my existing, strong belief that what was said a year ago is still true.

The first paragraph above would make sense if the MM were basing it's matching on deck composition though.

I played roughly 700 games last season (yeah, really). I wouldn't say with absolute certainty the MM is making it's choices based on more than advertised. I would say I consistently experienced a lot of suspicious behavior over those games.

I highly doubt it's "rigged". So I dislike using this word to describe experiences. Rigged, to me, would imply it's fixing games based on win rates. As an example, you go on a winning streak and the game suddenly decides to look for bad match-ups for your deck, gives poor starting draws, mulligans, etc. to force that win rate down. I doubt it does this because of the presumed complexity involved. In this case it would presumably have to compare decks and match based on those comparisons. Furthermore, it would have to account for win rates and intentionally force poor draws/mulligans. The former could probably be done. The latter.... ehh... I think the latter of the two is tin foil hat land.

With that said, I could see a reason for attempting to force win rates closer to 50%, somehow, someway. If only because people tend to set goals. Reach the next rank or a certain fMMR. When they easily reach those goals the incentives become diminished. You hit a point where you feel you've hit the maximum. If you suddenly hit a loss streak at a certain point it prevents you from hitting that goal. Don't hit the goal and you want to reach it even more. Thus, you play more games. On the flipside, constantly losing leads to frustration. Frustration leads to less games played. So, it's not a stretch to see the logic. You could make similar arguments for rewards and things of that nature.

I wouldn't be surprised if it does factor in deck composition. I'll admit I couldn't program my way out of a paper bag. I still don't see why it would have to be super complex. Cards do things. If you categorize the card functions, and lump cards with similar purposes together, you could then presumably look to match players based on those categories. Artifact removal would be the most simple example. As an example, player 1 has artifact removal and player 2 has artifacts. So perhaps the MM would look to match player 1 and 2 to create a "competitive" game. P1 has to use the AR on the correct artifacts to win the game. P2 has to find a way to make those artifacts work as intended. What aspect of this requires a lot of trickery? The game already presumably tries to match based on fMMR or rank. Adding more "variables" to the decision making in the form of card categories doesn't sound like much of a stretch.

Going back to the rigged commentary.... If the game does indeed try to rig matches to force specified win rates it doesn't do it very well. If that were the case 70-80+% win rates over 20-30 games probably wouldn't happen. The MM would intervene and stop it. Likewise, hideous loss rates over 20-30 games probably wouldn't happen either. Not if players of similar ability were being matched together. I've experienced both of these quite a bit. It doesn't compute :). This makes me believe the culprit is poor play, poor deck composition or lack of adjustments when people claim it's the case.

"Perfect counters" coming up frequently is to be expected. It shouldn't matter if the other player has the perfect counter to a particular concept if your deck is strong and you play around it correctly. This gets into the nuance of match-ups and the "little stuff". Obviously, in some match-ups a loss is likely. You cannot beat everything. However, any quality, strong deck is strong precisely because it doesn't face many of these circumstances. The label "tier 1" implies the ability to beat most other decks if you play the match-up correctly. Barring extremely poor luck anyway.

Getting to the point... If I build and play one deck and hit certain match-ups with high frequency, where it looks like they have counters to my stuff and vice versa, it's not shocking. If I swap to a different deck and those match-ups inexplicably change it's suspicious. Over those 700 games last season it felt like this behavior occurred like clockwork. To the point where it was almost predictable. Even changing certain cards felt like it would adjust the matches. Yes, this confirms nothing. Again, it did raise a lot of suspicions though.

The problem with these types of claims is it's hard to prove. Even if the MM does account for deck comp it presumably wouldn't be a static yes or no. It would presumably attempt to match based on certain criteria and, as time elapsed, expand the scope. In other words, it looks to match A vs B but when it cannot find B it matches A vs C after a certain time interval. If it cannot find C it looks for D and E. Based on all the variables of time of day, whom is playing, what they're playing, rank, fMMR, etc. it would be extremely difficult to say how it matches with certainty. Player 1 might play concept A and get paired with concept B because concept B is common at the time. Player 2 might play concept A but fail to meet concept B because it's not in the queue.

Apologies for the wall of text :).
 
Ok, I am not trying to sound too "passive aggressive", but honestly didn't you guys stud the laws of probability in school? How people think the system is rigged is beyond my understanding...!
 
So I built a Nilf deck last night, decided to give it a whirl. The only deck it would struggle against is the monster thrive deck. Guess what, 4 games in a row, the same Monster deck. Every match the same cards, every match the same gameplay. I figure, well, that must be popular, they won the leader challenge and all. Said screw it, built a blood thirst deck for the heck of it. Only deck it would suffer against would be the one that boosts units, the one that has the leader that boosts a unit every other turn, etc. because they could prevent bloodthirst. Played 4 games, guess what, every single game was against the boost deck/leader. Exact same cards, every game.

Come on, I understand RNG, etc. but there comes a point when you gotta start thinking something is going on here. This is how it goes for me every single time. Beyond frustrating. Guess it is time to netdeck a more universal useable deck.
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Ok, I am not trying to sound too "passive aggressive", but honestly didn't you guys stud the laws of probability in school? How people think the system is rigged is beyond my understanding...!

Yes, that is why after 4 games facing the exact same deck that can counter you, deciding to pick a different faction/deck, and facing a new leader/deck combo that can completely/exactly counter you, coming back days later, trying a whole new deck and facing the only deck that can counter you 4 times in a row, building a new deck, facing the only deck that counter you, and so on and so on, you have to finally think, there is something in that algorithm of theirs that is causing this. Not saying it is coded to do this exactly this way, but something in that algorithm is taking other things into account that is weighing/influencing the match ups. Could even of been accidental, we will never know. But there comes a point when you have to much data for this to still be random. Am I there yet, probably not in the grand scheme of things on the sheer number of games played, but in my microverse where if I just take into account my games played only, then the data overwhelmingly supports this beyond a shadow of a doubt. In Gwents overall gameplay across all platforms, it is just probably my bad luck.
 
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Guess what, 4 games in a row, the same Monster deck. Every match the same cards, every match the same gameplay. [...] Played 4 games, guess what, every single game was against the boost deck/leader. Exact same cards, every game.

Out of curiosity, could you make a screenshot of your match history showing the things you've mentioned above (like I did here). I want to take a more systematical approach to investigate this situation.
 
(A general note)

Another thing to take into account are the hours you normally play and any deviation thereof. Playing on different times of the day could change the match-ups. I'll explain this with an example (which might not reflect the actual situation).

The daily tier resets every day at 0:00 GMT. Thereafter you might see a sudden increase of players quickly wanting to complete the new daily tier, which might lead to facing off against decks that are easier to play (like Monsters) thus decreasing variance.

Another example, when you are playing in the quiet hours of the night, there might not be any good opponents available, which might result in the algorithm loosening the search parameters, which could lead to a higher variance in the match-ups.

The examples mentioned above could explain the possible skewed perception. I am not saying the above applies to everyone, nor that it explains everything. It's just one of the many (little) things that could make a difference and could make it difficult to draw a solid conclusion.
 
Im lvl 13 prestige 1 and I keep getting matched against low lvl new players prestige 0 I thought they fixed the bug that slama talked about ! or maybe my mmr is super low lol don't think so tho
 
Imagine you've got Epidemic vs Arachas Queen?

A great card to have in a arachas deck it is. Before everybody started to play Discard I had this deck based on discard/create. It took over 10 minutes to find a worthy opponent. Everytime again. Trying another deck to see if the game got stuck or so, found an opponent within 10 seconds. That's just not right.
 
Imagine you've got Epidemic vs Arachas Queen?

A great card to have in a arachas deck it is. Before everybody started to play Discard I had this deck based on discard/create. It took over 10 minutes to find a worthy opponent. Everytime again. Trying another deck to see if the game got stuck or so, found an opponent within 10 seconds. That's just not right.

I run a couple of decks, SK and MO, where there's less obvious counters and it seems to work in terms of keeping matchmaking varied.

That's not to say there aren't hard counters, there are - they just don't get included as much (Comm Horn and Scorch, namely) because they're so expensive and situational.
 
So I built a Nilf deck last night, decided to give it a whirl. The only deck it would struggle against is the monster thrive deck. Guess what, 4 games in a row, the same Monster deck. Every match the same cards, every match the same gameplay. I figure, well, that must be popular, they won the leader challenge and all. Said screw it, built a blood thirst deck for the heck of it. Only deck it would suffer against would be the one that boosts units, the one that has the leader that boosts a unit every other turn, etc. because they could prevent bloodthirst. Played 4 games, guess what, every single game was against the boost deck/leader. Exact same cards, every game.

Come on, I understand RNG, etc. but there comes a point when you gotta start thinking something is going on here. This is how it goes for me every single time. Beyond frustrating. Guess it is time to netdeck a more universal useable deck.
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Yes, that is why after 4 games facing the exact same deck that can counter you, deciding to pick a different faction/deck, and facing a new leader/deck combo that can completely/exactly counter you, coming back days later, trying a whole new deck and facing the only deck that can counter you 4 times in a row, building a new deck, facing the only deck that counter you, and so on and so on, you have to finally think, there is something in that algorithm of theirs that is causing this. Not saying it is coded to do this exactly this way, but something in that algorithm is taking other things into account that is weighing/influencing the match ups. Could even of been accidental, we will never know. But there comes a point when you have to much data for this to still be random. Am I there yet, probably not in the grand scheme of things on the sheer number of games played, but in my microverse where if I just take into account my games played only, then the data overwhelmingly supports this beyond a shadow of a doubt. In Gwents overall gameplay across all platforms, it is just probably my bad luck.


I am still waiting for someone to tell me what does CDPR gain from rigging the match making against random players.
Just a quick note, if there is a chance of something to happen 90 percent of the times, it can still NOT happen after 10 times.
 
I am still waiting for someone to tell me what does CDPR gain from rigging the match making against random players.
Just a quick note, if there is a chance of something to happen 90 percent of the times, it can still NOT happen after 10 times.

By ensuring any given player has approx. 50% win rate, CDPR stand to gain from:

- A player purchasing new kegs to improve their deck
- A player finding 'replay' value in the game through experimenting with new decks to "counter"
- Ensuring that deck variation still happens as often as possible

IMO if one particular META beats, say, 90% of popular decks, then the win rate, if left truly 'random', would be too high and too easy to obtain. There's other maths to consider - number of "beatable" decks being played at the time, for example - but it does make sense to try to make the match up as competitive as possible.
 
By ensuring any given player has approx. 50% win rate

That actually works with "normal" (ie ranking-based) matchmaking as well - it is supposed to position you in such way that you end up having ~50% winrate eventually & requires less resources to develop & maintain.
 
By ensuring any given player has approx. 50% win rate, CDPR stand to gain from:

- A player purchasing new kegs to improve their deck
- A player finding 'replay' value in the game through experimenting with new decks to "counter"
- Ensuring that deck variation still happens as often as possible

IMO if one particular META beats, say, 90% of popular decks, then the win rate, if left truly 'random', would be too high and too easy to obtain. There's other maths to consider - number of "beatable" decks being played at the time, for example - but it does make sense to try to make the match up as competitive as possible.

The second point is pretty much "the point" in many games such as OW as far as I know. They always match you up with players that have had the same amount of win streaks so you cant just go on stumping everyone in your way.

For the way you guys match making is working, it has to first know the type of deck you are using, then it has to know which deck encounters it and match you two together. It has to be constantly updated and tweaked...
Also, purchasing new kegs? how does that work? If there is a certain deck type, lets say big monster that can get countered by another deck type, lets say Usurper human lock maybe, how does buying more kegs will help here?!
 
Look, it's absolutely fixed. I just played around with a bearmaster deck, instantly up against first an NG deck with DUDU in it (wtf?) then an ST deck. Both times I was heavily up against whatever passes for CDPR's A.I., or A.S. (artificial stupidity, because "intelligence" it ain't).

First the NG match. I've got Caldwell, Jutta, Mirror and Sigafrida. Covering all bases here, or so I think. Didn't get jutta in the deal, at all, ever - it ended up being the ONLY card in still in the deck at the end of the match, in spite of Bran/Birna/Coral/Skald. I somehow mulliganed every card except Jutta, so Sigafrida's not a great help. Anyway, opponent plays Yen. I don't have a counter. So I throw Caldwell down to take some hits - Duda appears, copies Caldwell's power, Yen hits mine for one, it swaps sides. You could have access to the entire card library and not come up with a more particular, more specific, more fortunate counter than that.

Went back and created a Bearmaster deck instead, but added some discard too. In the next match the oppo played in R3 (slow) succession - Morenn, Ifrit (hard removal Coral), Ida, Geralt (wiped out one boosted bear), Scorch (wiped out another boosted bear), Skaggs (wiped out my only beast). They had SIX cards left in deck - I quit as I didn't fancy seeing Aglais super boost with Garrison which was probably the inevitable outcome!!

In both examples, if I'd been playing my usual SK bloodthirst or MO removal deck, I'd have won comfortably.

The point is it was the PERFECT counter. Again. And it happens time and time and time again, for me and for many, many others. Whatever this game does in matchmaking - and also in dealing the cards just does not work from the perspective of the players enjoyment of the game.
 
The point is it was the PERFECT counter. Again. And it happens time and time and time again, for me and for many, many others. Whatever this game does in matchmaking - and also in dealing the cards just does not work from the perspective of the players enjoyment of the game.

Well said nedders.
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Out of curiosity, could you make a screenshot of your match history showing the things you've mentioned above (like I did here). I want to take a more systematical approach to investigate this situation.

Will need some time but will try.
 
I tell you what the 'default' mode is, where I feel you're against a computer opponent and not a human; Meve.

I changed decks again, this time with more of a traditional SK discard w/ Coral. Instantly faced NR with Meve, not only that, but in R3 in spite of having no real thinning the opponent ended up with Seltkirk, Natalis, Nenneke, Doregay, Avallach (had to waste trophy catch - of yeah, I got the BEST deal) and then I quit when the Draug appeared. So many times it feels like the opponent has simply picked exactly what cards they're going to need and in what order. Whereas even playing with a SK discard deck, I can't get close because I don't have removal.

Simply put, there's no way to win competitive games in Gwent HC76 unless you have copious amounts of removal. I'd have stood a chance against the NR deck, by simply having Gimpy Gerwin. How pathetic a game is it, that you can stare aghast at the screen thinking "hmm, if I'd had THAT card, I'd win" only to then ADD said card, and NEVER face that deck again!!!

Hands up how many of you have Gimpy Gerwin and regularly run into NR Swarm, Slave Infantry or the Draug? No, me neither. And they say it's not fixed!!!!!
 
Yeah, the game feels like it's designed to genuinely piss me off.

I made a deck with Germain + Commander's Horn and I run into decks that are able to deal with both cards.

I try switching it up, I go for Greatswords and Dagur Two Blades. I go up against 5 Nilfgaard decks in a row, all of which have locks and removal. Guess what? One of them ran BLACK BLOOD as well.

Seriously what the hell is this? It's like the game wants me to quit playing. I'm tired of trying to make a deck and then running against decks that counter what I just made. It's so stupid.
 
I will start by saying in no way do I think this is part of their matchmaking logic but man, it sure felt like it.

I decided to netdeck last night to see if I could actually start winning some matches (on one heck of a losing streak). I picked a deck that everyone is raving about, the boost deck. I read numerous places that the key to the deck is to not go first, that it was really important and easier wins if you don't, etc. etc.

Played 8 games last night, 7 of the 8 I went first. Said screw it and picked one of my own decks and I did not go first for 4 games.

Man this is frustrating.

I also have never seen the scorch card actually played in a match in what feels like months, seriously, in a reallllyyy long time. My own built deck that buffs cards in hands, etc. and the last round the player played scorch to wreck my deck and made me loose. Sigh, good for them for having the one card that could make me loose, yet again.
 
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