Matchmaking still flawed?

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You obviously included a deck-based algorithmn now, even for ranked matches.
After a winning-streak-day I now face counter decks instead of opponents, that did reach higher ranks than me in previous seasons. Count it out: Locks aren't that popular anymore… exept you play a meta-engine deck. Then the number of locks increases significantly.
After the 2.0 patch I always get a mirror match in the first very few games. Even when I create something I personnaly hadn't seen before, but after 2-3 games I am already in a mirror match.

Now, I am doing this sort of games since a very long time and I know when I have to face a deck-based matchmaking.
I went back on Gwent after a break because I saw it as the least manipulated online card game.
But to me it seems like a lot did change there and at the very least I wanna say that I do not like it and I am probably gonna stop playing it now.
 
@Inqui100 Post moved to a more appropriate thread, because it's not an Ask a Dev.

Since you don't disagree, I guess we can all assume we have to live with changes to matchmaking without getting informed about them?

Also I will be more careful in presenting a question next time.
Won't be hard, because I really want to know now who actually wants this matchmaking and why it was done in the first place.
 
Since you don't disagree, I guess we can all assume we have to live with changes to matchmaking without getting informed about them?

Also I will be more careful in presenting a question next time.
Won't be hard, because I really want to know now who actually wants this matchmaking and why it was done in the first place.
The problem is that you guys insist something is going on even when you are being told it is not. Again the matchmaking you guys think there is, is pretty much impossible with needing to be updated like every day to look at countless decks, searching what counters what, looking through the players that are searching for a match in the exact time frame and matching them together.
I feel like this is a good read to help with the situation:
https://revisionmaths.com/gcse-maths-revision/statistics-handling-data/probability

And finally, if match making is acting this way, then you yourself should be the one every once in a while to do the countering. If you have the perfect answer in a match, will you get mad like this at the matchmaking?
 

rrc

Forum veteran
Dude, I'm not going to screenshot at that exact moment in time, though I'll try to keep it in mind. I guarantee it was Aguara True Form followed by Treason to kill my immune Artis (and a locked Queensguard). Thank you for accepting that these tales are beyond comprehension! I honestly have a real lack of faith in the game as a result. I don't mind facing an odd card - in fact, I welcome it warmly - but I get a bit peeved when it makes no sense, wipes out any kind of plan I might have and happens at precisely, exactly the 'right' moment!!

It's slightly personal, yes, because it feels like I'm being cheated. Weird matchmaking, impossibly good cards for the opponent and it's more about losing 5-6 games, and losing badly as per the above. I'm just sharing experience to show people who suffer the same that it is a 'thing' and it happens a lot.
I agree that Agura:TF is not impossible as NG can use it to trigger Assimilation. In that case, your games are worthy of "The Great Dandelion Show" content. You should see those videos to see how some RNGs are ridiculously impossibly unfair. So, it is not just you who gets the bad luck, there are plenty of people who go through it. May be it is so frustrating that it feels like it always happens to you.

In one of the games, my opponent played Anna and I played Dana. He used "Create a bronze card from your opponent's starting deck" card and got two Hawker who handbuffs. I had the Runestone and I used it and I got three dwars all of whom will only give me max 3 points (the hand buff dwarf, the dwarf who boosts by the number of dwarfs on board and the dwarf who summons his copy) and I went with 3 point dwarf.

It is all part of the game.

I would recommend that you play some friendly games with your friends, fine-tune your deck and try again and don't take loses so personally. Its just a game. But please use this thread to post your stories. They are incredible!
 
I agree that Agura:TF is not impossible as NG can use it to trigger Assimilation. In that case, your games are worthy of "The Great Dandelion Show" content. You should see those videos to see how some RNGs are ridiculously impossibly unfair. So, it is not just you who gets the bad luck, there are plenty of people who go through it. May be it is so frustrating that it feels like it always happens to you.

In one of the games, my opponent played Anna and I played Dana. He used "Create a bronze card from your opponent's starting deck" card and got two Hawker who handbuffs. I had the Runestone and I used it and I got three dwars all of whom will only give me max 3 points (the hand buff dwarf, the dwarf who boosts by the number of dwarfs on board and the dwarf who summons his copy) and I went with 3 point dwarf.

It is all part of the game.

I would recommend that you play some friendly games with your friends, fine-tune your deck and try again and don't take loses so personally. Its just a game. But please use this thread to post your stories. They are incredible!

I'm honoured to be the forum version of the Great Dandelion Show! No, not suggesting it's only me, more that the game suffers from a bit too much "bad luck", commonly disguised as RNG-sus!

I'm going to have a look into Twitch and also screenshots as if nothing else it might cause some amusement!
 
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How exactly?

You don't read my posts?

A quick example, I've just quit a seasonal game early; I had 6 units on the board for SK, including a priest, Avallach, Harald, one of haralds friends, Vjalborn and Sigvald that I had deliberately reduced to two STR, but made immune, so he could do maximum damage. Opponent plays an Archespore and I will give you precisely ONE guess to tell me which card of mine the Archespore "randomly" damaged for two points....
 
How exactly?

Story time...

One time both my opponent and I had a full board. I had Shupe as my last card. So I roll Shupe Mage, 12 pings. Believe it or not I lost the game by 1 point because the last ping hit my side. Yeah, full board both sides... at least 8 units on both sides. What happens? The final ping hits my side. At that point I had an epiphany and realized this game is self-aware and made that final ping hit the wrong team to troll me.

On a more serious note.... Googling MM algorithms used in gaming makes for some interesting info. It might be surprising what certain developers have... allegedly attempted to do with their MM. It stands to reason MM algorithms would have advanced with the times like most aspects of gaming. So insinuating there is more to it beyond simple rank or fMMR comparisons isn't really that far out there. Completely rigged across the board might be a bit of a stretch, sure. Especially for a "F2P" virtual card game.
 
Story time...

One time both my opponent and I had a full board. I had Shupe as my last card. So I roll Shupe Mage, 12 pings. Believe it or not I lost the game by 1 point because the last ping hit my side. Yeah, full board both sides... at least 8 units on both sides. What happens? The final ping hits my side. At that point I had an epiphany and realized this game is self-aware and made that final ping hit the wrong team to troll me.

On a more serious note.... Googling MM algorithms used in gaming makes for some interesting info. It might be surprising what certain developers have... allegedly attempted to do with their MM. It stands to reason MM algorithms would have advanced with the times like most aspects of gaming. So insinuating there is more to it beyond simple rank or fMMR comparisons isn't really that far out there. Completely rigged across the board might be a bit of a stretch, sure. Especially for a "F2P" virtual card game.

The Great Dandelion Show has 104 editions. #justsaying.

I don't feel like I play real games anymore. I just boot up, my cards get destroyed over the course of a number of plays, then I quit. Absolutely nothing else happens.
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Here ya go; literally loaded, played first game and this is what I come up against: here's the point where I quit and what the oppo had in their graveyard.

In graveyard from R1; Treant Boar, Milaena, Wyley, some other banish card and Cleaver (plus boosty dwarf filler).
On board R3; Saskia, Geralt Pro (killed my shielded Avallach, Geralt doesn't care about shields by the way), Ifrit, trap thing, the lock dryad, some other crap that kills cards.

Is anybody, anywhere enjoying this game (apart from everyone who plays me)?
 

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What you show us is nothing unusual as many people run netdecks, these cards are auto-include. Maybe not Whoreson, and less commonly Cleaver as the meta moves forward.

Here are some links
https://gwentup.com/decks/2369
https://gwentup.com/decks/6217
https://gwentup.com/decks/7827

Yeah, I was kind of implying the fact that the deal is so ludicrously unbalanced in favour of the opposition, I literally have no hope. I have just tried again, built an experimental Eldain deck - five of my traps were still in my deck in R3. Five. Eldain was literally powerless.

Thankfully, and mainly for this forum, I won't be able to put up with it much longer. It's a sad little shell of a game these days, a hateful experience with no joy even in winning. Won't be putting another penny into CDPR's pocket.
 
It's not about ''make a good deck'' , it's about mechanics that are too imbalanced or just bad designed.
Control / Removal is too much again and again - you put point and do damage , nothing new and nothing special.

My comment was completely out of this topic (some moderator put it here). I do not speak here about matchmaking for a simple reason, if that did not have something strange it would not be secret.
 
My God I have got to start recording this.

Made a Deadlaugh/Kayran deck to try to not focus on removal; I either face NR engines or SK Bearmaster. Basically, anything that can out-boost me. Got to about 78 points, opponent had 91. I'd managed to Caranthir my Kayran and Hillock my Deadlaugh Higher Vampire and got absolutely nowhere near.

I need to make a hat out of tin foil, because this shit is out of control.
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Question for anyone out there - there's 2 x 19 str units on the board, mine and the opponent. I play Caldwell with the intention of consuming it next round, but as I end my turn he goes to the other side of the board. Is there any particular reason why this kind of crap happens?
 
Googling MM algorithms used in gaming makes for some interesting info. It might be surprising what certain developers have... allegedly attempted to do with their MM. It stands to reason MM algorithms would have advanced with the times like most aspects of gaming. So insinuating there is more to it beyond simple rank or fMMR comparisons isn't really that far out there. Completely rigged across the board might be a bit of a stretch, sure. Especially for a "F2P" virtual card game.

I did that. Here's an article I found:
https://digit.hbs.org/submission/video-game-matchmaking-a-data-driven-take-from-blizzard/

Here's a portion of the article:
"By nature, video game matchmaking systems tend to be highly data-intensive and quantitative. In a simplified model, players with similar matchmaking ratings (MMR) ought to be paired so that players with similar capabilities can play against each other and an average player within that MMR band can achieve roughly 50% win rate. This is indeed what Blizzard did for its famous Battle.net ladder system, a ranked reputation board for many of its popular titles. Then human nature struck. Players intentionally lose several games in a row to artificially drop themselves to a lower MMR band, where they could farm lower-skilled players to achieve a much higher win rate, hence the in-game benefits that came with each victorious game. {<---THAT'S EXACTLY ME!! HOW DID THEY KNOW??} The mandate that only players with similar MMRs could be paired further led to a stale environment where the thrill of getting paired against a much more creative, skillful, and challenging opponent was virtually non-existent. To tackle the issues of farming and staled matchmaking, Blizzard leveraged their ever-accumulating data asset that encapsulated a rich spectrum of player behavior and characteristics beyond the bare-bone win rates. For example, Blizzard used statistical rules to segment Hearthstone (Blizzard’s popular online collectible card game) users into newer vs. older cohorts, while looking at a completely different dimension to segment users into “casual” vs. “competitive” cohorts by deepdiving into the in-game card collection and behavioral data of each user[2]. Blizzard then customized the matchmaking algorithms based on the characteristics of different player cohorts. For instance, the “objective function” for pairing new players might lean towards maximizing in-game content discovery and a relative high startup win rate; the “objective function” for grindy players with jaded appetite might lean towards optimizing freshness and creativity by matchmaking across different MMR bands. These experimental cohort-specific customizations in turn generated a new stream of data to inform the evolving player preferences and cohort trends in an dynamic feedback loop of learning. "

I also found a thread on Reddit from 1 year ago where Gwent players discuss the same suspicions:

Here's someone else's post from that thread:

"I have experienced the same pattern. Here is my speculative hypotheses:

Gwent/CDPR at the end of the day, exists for making money. It needs a constant stream of new players who will get hooked. It also needs to give the seasoned players a sense of "almost" making it to keep them trying. Therefore, it tries to optimize the matchmaking algorithm to achieve the desired business outcome using a logic like below:

  1. It scores each card using strength/weakness/effectiveness/sequencing/pairing dependency matirix - I am sure there are other attributes it uses for scoring
  2. During matchmaking, the matchmaking engine looks at your deck and creates an "Active Deck matrix" - not difficult to do at all.
  3. It looks at your level, how long you have been playing the game, series of consecutive wins, have you spend money on the game, your frequency of playing, etc.
  4. Depending on their target outcome, they pair you up with another Deck with a Higher or Lower rank matrix to "influence" the outcome with a certain probability coefficient.
4a) It also creates the sequencing of your deck card drops to influence the outcome - probably by using a discrete probability distribution model.

4b) E.g. If you have a gold Weather card and the matchmaking algorithm wants to make it difficult for you, then the opponent will have a hazard clearing card and vice versa.

5) in other words, matchmaking is NOT random or linear - it is algorithmic and the algo is way complex, nuanced, and business driven beyond just looking at level and rank. Being a tech professional my instinct tells me they are using a Machine Learning engine for matchmaking. And they have an extensive profile on you. The "beta version" is a huge data opportunity for them to train the ML engine before it goes to market.

6) and yes, I have also empirically experienced the "Paper, scissors, and rock" in action. However, for newbie players it happens at a slower rate to get them hooked.

7) Think about it - if new players were consistently losing at say 50%\of the time, then they would likely lose interest = less money for CRPR.

8) Unless you look into the proprietary matchmaking algo of CDPR - you will never have the "beyond reasonable doubt" data set. So you have to rely on just experience and gut feeling."
 
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I did that. Here's an article I found:
https://digit.hbs.org/submission/video-game-matchmaking-a-data-driven-take-from-blizzard/

Here's a portion of the article:
"By nature, video game matchmaking systems tend to be highly data-intensive and quantitative. In a simplified model, players with similar matchmaking ratings (MMR) ought to be paired so that players with similar capabilities can play against each other and an average player within that MMR band can achieve roughly 50% win rate. This is indeed what Blizzard did for its famous Battle.net ladder system, a ranked reputation board for many of its popular titles. Then human nature struck. Players intentionally lose several games in a row to artificially drop themselves to a lower MMR band, where they could farm lower-skilled players to achieve a much higher win rate, hence the in-game benefits that came with each victorious game. {<---THAT'S EXACTLY ME!! HOW DID THEY KNOW??} The mandate that only players with similar MMRs could be paired further led to a stale environment where the thrill of getting paired against a much more creative, skillful, and challenging opponent was virtually non-existent. To tackle the issues of farming and staled matchmaking, Blizzard leveraged their ever-accumulating data asset that encapsulated a rich spectrum of player behavior and characteristics beyond the bare-bone win rates. For example, Blizzard used statistical rules to segment Hearthstone (Blizzard’s popular online collectible card game) users into newer vs. older cohorts, while looking at a completely different dimension to segment users into “casual” vs. “competitive” cohorts by deepdiving into the in-game card collection and behavioral data of each user[2]. Blizzard then customized the matchmaking algorithms based on the characteristics of different player cohorts. For instance, the “objective function” for pairing new players might lean towards maximizing in-game content discovery and a relative high startup win rate; the “objective function” for grindy players with jaded appetite might lean towards optimizing freshness and creativity by matchmaking across different MMR bands. These experimental cohort-specific customizations in turn generated a new stream of data to inform the evolving player preferences and cohort trends in an dynamic feedback loop of learning. "

I also found a thread on Reddit from 1 year ago where Gwent players discuss the same suspicions:

Here's someone else's post from that thread:

"I have experienced the same pattern. Here is my speculative hypotheses:

Gwent/CDPR at the end of the day, exists for making money. It needs a constant stream of new players who will get hooked. It also needs to give the seasoned players a sense of "almost" making it to keep them trying. Therefore, it tries to optimize the matchmaking algorithm to achieve the desired business outcome using a logic like below:

  1. It scores each card using strength/weakness/effectiveness/sequencing/pairing dependency matirix - I am sure there are other attributes it uses for scoring
  2. During matchmaking, the matchmaking engine looks at your deck and creates an "Active Deck matrix" - not difficult to do at all.
  3. It looks at your level, how long you have been playing the game, series of consecutive wins, have you spend money on the game, your frequency of playing, etc.
  4. Depending on their target outcome, they pair you up with another Deck with a Higher or Lower rank matrix to "influence" the outcome with a certain probability coefficient.
4a) It also creates the sequencing of your deck card drops to influence the outcome - probably by using a discrete probability distribution model.

4b) E.g. If you have a gold Weather card and the matchmaking algorithm wants to make it difficult for you, then the opponent will have a hazard clearing card and vice versa.

5) in other words, matchmaking is NOT random or linear - it is algorithmic and the algo is way complex, nuanced, and business driven beyond just looking at level and rank. Being a tech professional my instinct tells me they are using a Machine Learning engine for matchmaking. And they have an extensive profile on you. The "beta version" is a huge data opportunity for them to train the ML engine before it goes to market.

6) and yes, I have also empirically experienced the "Paper, scissors, and rock" in action. However, for newbie players it happens at a slower rate to get them hooked.

7) Think about it - if new players were consistently losing at say 50%\of the time, then they would likely lose interest = less money for CRPR.

8) Unless you look into the proprietary matchmaking algo of CDPR - you will never have the "beyond reasonable doubt" data set. So you have to rely on just experience and gut feeling."

Dont you just LOVE it when people make things out of thin air? I do. It is actually amazing how far you guys are willing to take the conspiracy theories.
 
Here ya go; literally loaded, played first game and this is what I come up against: here's the point where I quit and what the oppo had in their graveyard.

First question, why is there a spear on the board? Second question, why are you playing Eredin and not being a bandwagoner like everyone else and flocking to the vampire dude? Also, one of those players is running Eithne. Eithne has freaking 19 provisions. It's going to play a lot of good cards.

Question for anyone out there - there's 2 x 19 str units on the board, mine and the opponent. I play Caldwell with the intention of consuming it next round, but as I end my turn he goes to the other side of the board. Is there any particular reason why this kind of crap happens?

I mean... that situation is a 50/50 for Caldwell. Swapping sides isn't that strange. Taking a 50/50 with Caldy is ill advised unless you have no choice. In that case, yes, it's based on RNG. Welcome to Gwent HC, where we get create leaders.

Dont you just LOVE it when people make things out of thin air? I do. It is actually amazing how far you guys are willing to take the conspiracy theories.

I'm not claiming write-ups on MM algorithms you can casually find on the internet are true. A lot of the stuff out there is on places like Reddit, after all. Nor am I claiming the game is "rigged". It's a bit naive to assume the MM algorithm is a simple fMMR, rank, etc. calculation, however. Could it be? Absolutely. Would anyone know with absolute certainty without seeing the algorithm? Nope. Like I said, good luck proving it one way or another.
 
Well, uninstalled finally after yet another series of frankly baffling "bad luck" situations. Just cannot be arsed with it anymore. CounterGwent is the most tiresome, laborious experience. Genuinely thought new cards would help it, but it's made it worse than ever in terms of the matchmaking. Constantly face just the right deck that has just the right counter for whatever I'm trying to do. When I play the same deck I've just lost to, it's up against something I have no answers for. It's dull, pointless and - worst of all - zero fun.

Thanks and so long, no more life wasted on this turgid crap.
 
Well, uninstalled finally after yet another series of frankly baffling "bad luck" situations. Just cannot be arsed with it anymore. CounterGwent is the most tiresome, laborious experience. Genuinely thought new cards would help it, but it's made it worse than ever in terms of the matchmaking. Constantly face just the right deck that has just the right counter for whatever I'm trying to do. When I play the same deck I've just lost to, it's up against something I have no answers for. It's dull, pointless and - worst of all - zero fun.

Thanks and so long, no more life wasted on this turgid crap.

Control decks Eithne and Detlaff are quite fun. Its only fun when you are winning, where you feel some sort of progression. Net-decks are basically the way to go if you want to trully enjoy the game.
 
Control decks Eithne and Detlaff are quite fun. Its only fun when you are winning, where you feel some sort of progression. Net-decks are basically the way to go if you want to trully enjoy the game.

Copying net decks plus uber-spend on kegs. I'm not a child, so this game simply doesn't have appeal anymore. Only CDPR's balance sheet will know for sure what the right approach is.
 
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