Character Romance Discussion

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Must. resist. derailing. thread...AHHHH I have to respond to this. I promise I'll make it relevant somehow ;)

Tolkien is way over-rated.... he was a great plotter, he was a great character creater, he was a great world builder.... but the man couldn't tell a story for shit....

The distinction we have to make when considering Tolkien's work is that it is not just a collection of "stories"; the concept of "story", in its strictest sense, has a particular meaning, and it can also vary, but that's besides that point.

Tolkien's work is a mythological and philosophical tome, and in particular it is an historical account of the West of Middle Earth; this historical account serves, essentially, as part of the foundational mythologies of the English people, where the overall mythology is another take on creation myths, i.e. this history took place in the very distant past of our world.

These distinctions are important because they helps us understand both the format and content of the tome from an accurate perspective.

But most importantly we have to know that this work is a fairy tale.

The genre of fairy tales has a unique purpose and format, and Tolkien's own essay, On Fairy Stories, gives us an understanding of his perspective on the purpose and format of a fairy tale.

When we take all these things into consideration, we can't apply simplistic rules or expectations of storytelling to this work, and we have to judge it by a different measuring stick.

He would spend pages detailing the grass on some bloody field in the middle of the Twat's hollow, or tell you the complete history of some dwarf in some mountain... but when you get to end of the ridiculously long and drawn out books, when you get to the climactic battle you been slogging your way through them to reach, it's over in like a bloody paragraph. That's shitty storytelling. And don't tell me it's not about the fighting, because the entirety of the books lead up to it. But it's not just that battle that is zipped through, every bloody battle, every fricking action scene, everything that could provide the least amount of excitement, is dealt with ridiculously quickly, so Tolkien can wax on like a little girl about Tom Bombadil and his ass-tastic unicorns and rainbows and other useless inconsequential bullshit.

You're absolutely right that the account is about battles- there are many battles raging in the West of Middle Earth, and one of them, and the reason why you see such abundant accounts of nature, is the battle between Nature and Machine.

I could go on about this one for miles, but all we need to know is this: Nature is essentially a "character" in this work, and especially in LOTR, because its fate hangs in the balance on the outcome of the War. Tom Bombadil, the essence of the English countryside, is another derivative of that type of character.

I understand that this type of work might not appeal to everyone, and that's okay. But it's inaccurate to say that Tolkien was a bad storyteller; he's just not your kind of storyteller.

There aren't a lot of cases where you can say the movies are better than the books they were base4d off of... in this case however, the movies are so much better that the scale is off the charts...

The movies misrepresented the work by reducing it to some fantasy-action story when it is not that; this is why many movie fans cannot relate to the books, or find them boring.

As for myself, I enjoy storytelling in all sorts of mediums, and I also appreciate when a medium utilizes its tools to the fullest extent possible. So, I like the movies too, but I wouldn't say that the movies are based on Tolkien's work, but that they are an inspired adaptation of them.

The only time I hate the movies is when the pervert the understanding of Tolkien's work.

As it concerns romance, there's plenty of romance in Tolkien's work, both in our conventional understanding of the concept and otherwise; for example, there's romance between the Elves and Nature, and there is also (unrequited and one-sided) romance between Éowyn and Aragorn.

(and I promised I'd make this post relevant so here- )

Tolkien wrote platonic romances really well, and we can see this type of romance in all of his work- Thorin and co. in The Hobbit, the Fellowship in LOTR, to name a few.

What I would really like to see in CP2077 is a platonic romance with an NPC. I think the aspect of fellowship or companionship is an integral component of role-playing, and CP2077, despite its everyone-is-a-hornet-covered-shark atmosphere, could pull it off

TL;DR Tolkien is a different kind of storyteller, but his work is not just "stories". And I kept my promise.
 


I see a whole lot of words there that basically boil down to.... "I cannot refute what Wisdom has to say, but because I am a Tolkien fanboy I will try and obfuscate this point by waxing on and on about how he was a fictional historian... and then sum up with how great the bromances between legolas and gimli and sam and frodo were..."

I agree.

As I said, Tolkien was great at a lot of things, but telling an exciting story was never one of them. And I say that as someone who read all of his works... hell I used to read LOTR every year up until the movie came out.

Nowadays though, the only room I have in my life for fantasy novels are works by Martin, Lieber, and Howard.
 
Wow, thanks for explaining the essence of Master Tolkien's work in an comprehensive, yet succinct manner. I sure know more now than I did before! You're so awesome, cmdr <3

You're welcome. Down, boy.

But really, the thing with stories and storytelling is that they do more than just one type of thing. So while there are stories whose purpose is to "excite", there are other types with different purposes. And to be honest, I get hot thinking about Tolkien's mythology and histories, mmmhm. So I find his work very exciting and stimulating.
 
And to be honest, I get hot thinking about Tolkien's mythology and histories, mmmhm. So I find his work very exciting and stimulating.

O_O

You are my friend, I respect you, even if you are wrong.... so understand that when I say this, I mean this in the best possible way.... but watch out when you are on the road because...

You are so gay you can't even drive straight...

:D
 
O_O

You are my friend, I respect you, even if you are wrong.... so understand that when I say this, I mean this in the best possible way.... but watch out when you are on the road because...

You are so gay you can't even drive straight...

:D

How perceptive! You totally got that work =ed penis, it's like we're smoking the same pipe-weed.

And yea, Slim is right. But so is db, so I guess I'm like void or something...nah, I'm too egotistical for an existential crisis.
 
How perceptive! You totally got that work =ed penis, it's like we're smoking the same pipe-weed.

And yea, Slim is right. But so is db, so I guess I'm like void or something...nah, I'm too egotistical for an existential crisis.

Great now I am totally lost...

Which is right about normal...
 
Just read slim's post again. Slowly. Let it sink in. It'll probably remove the confusion. If you're still unclear, I think we can probably find a few websites that explain it.
 
...of course you hated Roman. Look how -messy- he is!

And some other stuff. Tolkien rocks, the movies were okay, ( fuck them for chopping the Scouring in favour of some shitty romance). Wisdom, check out fantasy by Richard k Morgan, Joe Abercrombie and whoever wrote Prince of Thorns. Think you'll like it. You -will- like the Bloody Nine.

Women do exist in gaming forums. I saw three yesterday, hanging with the leprechauns.
 
you sure you hadn't dipped into the devils sauce a little there Sarduk? lol.

On the topic of women, other fiction and romance (i think thats what were on about at this point right?) I always found Switch from the matrix to be an awesome concept i was sad to never see realized. For those that don't know what i'm talkign about Switch was named Switch because inside the matrix switch is a cool (and attractive) cyberpunk type chick but outside of the matrix, in teh real world, it's supposed to be a man... ahh your ahead of me now lol, hence why the character is called Switch.

Always loved that idea for some reason sad it never happened on the silver screen. Also i dont' know if i should be worried that i think Switch in teh matrix is hot and general likeing of the whole concept lol, but hey whatever, i like what i like.
 
...of course you hated Roman. Look how -messy- he is!

And some other stuff. Tolkien rocks, the movies were okay, ( fuck them for chopping the Scouring in favour of some shitty romance). Wisdom, check out fantasy by Richard k Morgan, Joe Abercrombie and whoever wrote Prince of Thorns. Think you'll like it. You -will- like the Bloody Nine.

Women do exist in gaming forums. I saw three yesterday, hanging with the leprechauns.

Oh, come on! Roman a was great character! I love how he gets other people into the lie he's living, I love his kind of bi-polarism and, I know some would think thata acknowledging doesn't make up for an error, but yeah, Roman was conscious of how irritating he could get with his calls. There were even scripted 'Niko! I'm your cousin Roman, let's go bowling''s in missions.

And yeah, the Scouring of the Shire is my favourite episode of the book(s). The last half of the return of the king really felt dragged on. Wisdom thinks it's bad to read Tolkien describing grass... but there he described rocks! "Frodo and Sam walked 3 miles or so until a rock that looked like all the other rocks except the same... they rested there for a minute, then walked 4 miles south and 2 centimetres south-southeast, then into the rocks and into the rocks again... then more rocks". But at least at the end he entertained us to this immortal little piece of simple folk just not caring about the grandeur of the events that took place and that prevented a cataclysm. I love that kind of stories/endings and I also think I can appreciate Tolkien's more adventury and bucolic passages than those that aim at the epic, better conveyed by the movies perhaps.
 
I think it should be a big part of the experience but also optional. Like with what DMaple said, more than just a romantic relationship but a romance tracker where characters like you by your actions and personality or the opposite based on your actions. We need a wide variety of options for males and females. Also, why not have many one night stands with people you meet in bars and clubs or prostitutes? It adds to the experience.
 
I think relationships need to be included. But I also agree that the Bioware portrayal of them has been pretty juvenile and irritating. Those types of scenarios can be written much better.

There are two reasons I want relationships in the game. One is simply a matter of immersion. There needs to be a human element to the game to offset the metal. Relationships are an ideal vehicle for this. The seconds reason, which is really an extension of the first, is that relationships are an excellent way of preserving a character's sanity. Or helping to preserve it, at least. In our CP games, having a spouse, GF/BF or even just a f*** buddy, was a way that a character can somewhat reduce their psychosis level by keeping them grounded in their humanity. Anyone who's ever played Call of Cthulhu might have seen a similar mechanic used to recover or reduce SAN loss.

Just because relationships have been fumbled in the past, doesn't mean that they can't be made to work well by a developer with a bit more creativity and a better sense of realism.

wow, very well said, nice to read such a mature and well executed argument :)
 
Sounds nice and if it does in the previews games, I don't see why not, I hope it wont be like GTA4 that you have a relationship with one of the story characters, I want this game brings that to a whole new level, meaning. A random person in the streets. why not that can happen. After all is easy to program it.

0.o.... i dont know what point your trying to convey, but it has the potential to be immensely disturbing
 
Oh, come on! Roman a was great character! I love how he gets other people into the lie he's living, I love his kind of bi-polarism and, I know some would think thata acknowledging doesn't make up for an error, but yeah, Roman was conscious of how irritating he could get with his calls. There were even scripted 'Niko! I'm your cousin Roman, let's go bowling''s in missions.

Well, to be fair, i hated whenever someone called me for bowling in GTA IV. It didn't help that he would call right before i could save my game. Saying, "Niko, it's your cousin Roman, lets go bowling." I would love to say "Shut up Roman, before i make you eat that bowling ball you piece of shit!" They should have scripted that instead...
 
Oh, come on! Roman a was great character! I love how he gets other people into the lie he's living, I love his kind of bi-polarism and, I know some would think thata acknowledging doesn't make up for an error, but yeah, Roman was conscious of how irritating he could get with his calls. There were even scripted 'Niko! I'm your cousin Roman, let's go bowling''s in missions..

yeah he is cool.....



now its the "Character Roman(ce) Discussion :D
 
@braindancer - you may want to stop picking up images at funnyjunk. I don't know what you think you're posting, but it's this...
 
yeah mate use Image shack, never had a problem in 6 years.

I don't know if imageshack works here or not - it didn't work at the Witcher forums for years, but I haven't actually noticed the frog there for a while, so I'm not sure if that means that imageshack have stopped being discriminatory or just that I've stopped noticing.

But I'm surprised to see anyone outside USA/Europe recommending them - I take it that means they don't discriminate against Australia the way they do against Asia? Nasty business practices.

--

Ahh. OK. Sounds like they've stopped being discriminatory and are now starting to block everyone.
http://www.r4i-shopping.com/2013/07/imageshack-pulls-plug-on-hotlinking-to-unregistered-domains/
 
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