You believe TW2 to be a porn game? Really? Honestly? 2 Minutes total time of nudity and sex in a 40 hour game turns said game into a porno?Sirnaq said:
Fuck it. I dont want to deal with this crap, I am done with this community for a while. I'll be back when the idiots have returned to BSN.
Hang on, I'm coming with you. Where shall we go? Hmmm. Y'know, Tommy has a Witcher forum...Dragon said:
With games I like, I do my best to ignore the marketing because I don't want it to affect how I view the game itself. So I'm not offended by this "17+ male gamer" comment (and I could have predicted on my own that they were aiming for that audience based upon the naked Triss promos so the comment didn't really tell me anything new anyway). I like the games themselves and I want more games in the future, so I'll look the other way at whatever methods are used to increase sales.
However, I have to wonder if that actually is their main demographic in terms of who is buying the games. Personally I think it's more accurate to say their audience is "17+ gamers who enjoy mature RPG's with deep and well-written stories." And their marketing for the Xbox 360 seems to reflect this as well since they keep focusing on the depth of the story and the importance of the player's choices. I think that's a much more accurate way to advertise the game, and I hope it will reach many more potential fans who wouldn't have bothered if they thought the game was just about Triss's T&A
That one's very easy to answer. Simply having misogynistic characters doesn't make the game itself misogynistic. The game treats it as a bad thing and shows how awful it is (for example, Loredo is one of most despicable characters I've seen in a game in quite awhile and the game makes no excuses for him whatsoever), so if anything it's anti-misogyny because it puts the player in situations where the player is emotionally driven to make a stand against it.
However, I have to wonder if that actually is their main demographic in terms of who is buying the games. Personally I think it's more accurate to say their audience is "17+ gamers who enjoy mature RPG's with deep and well-written stories." And their marketing for the Xbox 360 seems to reflect this as well since they keep focusing on the depth of the story and the importance of the player's choices. I think that's a much more accurate way to advertise the game, and I hope it will reach many more potential fans who wouldn't have bothered if they thought the game was just about Triss's T&A
krisk7 said:
That one's very easy to answer. Simply having misogynistic characters doesn't make the game itself misogynistic. The game treats it as a bad thing and shows how awful it is (for example, Loredo is one of most despicable characters I've seen in a game in quite awhile and the game makes no excuses for him whatsoever), so if anything it's anti-misogyny because it puts the player in situations where the player is emotionally driven to make a stand against it.
Dragon said:
Lemmie guess. You didn't join this forum so you could be bombarded with a barrage of puerile claims that The Witcher is just sexist garbage. Funny thing, neither did I. After all, we can go to just about any other forum to see that.
Well, It was nice while it lasted.
You're smarter than this, Slimgrin, and your reading comprehension is higher than this. Not only have you not been "bombarded" with such claims, no one I've seen has made such a claim. You're reading with either your fears or your prejudices, not with your eyes.NotSlimgrin said:
I had no idea so many people here were such ... no, I'm not gonna say it. But I am going to take a break from this place, before I tell an awful lot of people exactly what I think of them.
The clear hatred and condescension shown to women gamers by so many of this forum's most prominent members has made me regret the energy I've poured into this community.
WardDragon said:
^This.
Not just in broad characterizations like Loredo, but also in a number of telling details.*
Serving cheesecake to your fans is so entrenched in games that it's difficult to buck the trend any more than TW2 already does. The fact that they have visibly tried so hard to subvert the conventions of fan service is something this thread just hasn't given the developers enough credit for.
But the statement that the game was made for a target audience of "17+ and male" has the unfortunate effect of calling attention, not to the places they succeeded, but to the places they fell short. Ves going into battle with her jacket open and her boobs suing for nonsupport. Triss in Playboy. Elf archers showing off more goods than the elf Mata Hari.
And it's sad when fans who all love the game and support the developers get to arguing past each other and talking of walking out. I wish I could apologize for everybody who gave offense without meaning to, or took offense where none was intended, but I can only apologize for myself.
*For example, Roche's gaze when Ves walks out of the interrogation room. (Not the first time, but the second and third times.)
It goes both ways!NotSlimgrin said:
You know what Slimgrin, you and a few others seem to be having trouble understanding whats going on here, so I am going to make my stance perfectly clear:
I am a straight male, and I enjoy looking at naked, beautiful women. It has nothing to do with being sexist, its my biology. Yes, not all the women look the part they play in the story, and the random female NPC's can stand to have a bit more variety. But so what if Triss is flawless? So what if Saskia shows a bit of cleavage?
Besides, putting aside the few scars here and there or some hardly noticeable skin blemishes, the leading men are just as attractive as the leading women. For every scene I have to enjoy of Triss being naked, the ladies have a scene of Geralt being naked.
It is a fantasy world, can we please enjoy our well placed eye candy without having to worry about realism?! You want women/men to stop being objectified, take it up in the real world. Take it up with the advertisement companies that feed on our insecurities, take it up with the actors and actresses that undergo plastic surgery every week, not fictional game characters. They are just fucking polygons.
The women of this community are the most respectable and hard-working gamers I have ever met out of any game community. The male Witcher fans don't even come close, I am sorry but it's the truth. For all the hours they put into providing mods, updating wikis, creating fan art....the least we can do is acknowledge that they exist and have just as much right to enjoy these games as us. "17+ male" is a bullshit statement, you should be aiming to please your fans, ALL OF THEM, be they men or women.
CDPR, Your game is based on a mature story with deep, complex characters. Focus on this in your advertisements, not Triss' naked form. It gives false expectations, attracts the wrong crowed, pushes female gamers away, and degrades these well put characters. Stop doing it.
You know else? TW2 presented the most mature and tasteful sex scenes ever put into a video game. There is nothing wrong with the naked human form, there is nothing wrong with two lovers engaging in sex from time to time. It makes it a mature game, not a fucking porno. I dont want to go back to Biowares shirtless, doll-like, dry humping scenes.
YOU ARE ALL WRONG. Ladies, excuse our nature, it's just biology. Men, shut the hell up and give respect where it's due. CDPR, fix your advertising campaign. People afraid of sex, this is not the community for you, the BSN is that way ------>.
I swear, I am an inch away from coming after all of you with a rusty blade.
Edit: Oh except Corylea, of course! being a hard-working woman in the community that also enjoys looking at other women, she is being assaulted by both sides. No wonder she is really upset
.Dragon said:It goes both ways!
You know what Slimgrin, you and a few others seem to be having trouble understanding whats going on here, so I am going to make my stance perfectly clear:
I am a straight male, and I enjoy looking at naked, beautiful women. It has nothing to do with being sexist, its my biology. Yes, not all the women look the part they play in the story, and the random female NPC's can stand to have a bit more variety. But so what if Triss is flawless? So what if Saskia shows a bit of cleavage?
Besides, putting aside the few scars here and there or some hardly noticeable skin blemishes, the leading men are just as attractive as the leading women. For every scene I have to enjoy of Triss being naked, the ladies have a scene of Geralt being naked.
It is a fantasy world, can we please enjoy our well placed eye candy without having to worry about realism?! You want women/men to stop being objectified, take it up in the real world. Take it up with the advertisement companies that feed on our insecurities, take it up with the actors and actresses that undergo plastic surgery every week, not fictional game characters. They are just fucking polygons.
The women of this community are the most respectable and hard-working gamers I have ever met out of any game community. The male Witcher fans don't even come close, I am sorry but it's the truth. For all the hours they put into providing mods, updating wikis, creating fan art....the least we can do is acknowledge that they exist and have just as much right to enjoy these games as us. "17+ male" is a bullshit statement, you should be aiming to please your fans, ALL OF THEM, be they men or women.
CDPR, Your game is based on a mature story with deep, complex characters. Focus on this in your advertisements, not Triss' naked form. It gives false expectations, attracts the wrong crowed, pushes female gamers away, and degrades these well put characters. Stop doing it.
You know else? TW2 presented the most mature and tasteful sex scenes ever put into a video game. There is nothing wrong with the naked human form, there is nothing wrong with two lovers engaging in sex from time to time. It makes it a mature game, not a fucking porno. I dont want to go back to Biowares shirtless, doll-like, dry humping scenes.
YOU ARE ALL WRONG. Ladies, excuse our nature, it's just biology. Men, shut the hell up and give respect where it's due. CDPR, fix your advertising campaign. People afraid of sex, this is not the community for you, the BSN is that way ------>.
I swear, I am an inch away from coming after all of you with a rusty blade.
Edit: Oh except Corylea, of course! being a hard-working woman in the community that also enjoys looking at other women, she is being assaulted by both sides. No wonder she is really upset
You're totally right. Thanks for making such a clear statement.
DelightfulMcCoy said:@Slimgrin and gregsky:
Yes, you are being really mature and extremely manly when you go get wasted and belittle women, so they don't notice your very tiny... confidence.
I'm sorry you didn't get the humour in what I said, some more distance should help. I didn't say "let's belittle women", I'm sorry that your prejudice lead you to being hostile.
DelightfulMcCoy said:
DelightfulMcCoy said:
DelightfulMcCoy said:
Wow, haven't I seen this coming. From the very start I've seen this thread going the wrong way and stirring some bad blood in the community. It is very saddening that a SINGLE WORD caused this type of situation and has been blown out of proportions. I tried to provide some rational, business-wise arguments about the whole thing but it seems they don't really stand a chance against points of view driven by sex/gender matters.
So before I back out of these threads - just to save some good memories about this forum that will keep me engaged - I'm gonna say just one thing:
If you really, really think, that this "17+ male" thing is a deliberate form of disrespect against women or not acknowledging their important role in the Witcher community - please think again and don't blow out things out of proportions. As you can see - it doesn't serve your community well.
Bye.
Dragon said:
I'm not surprised that ANYONE is having problems understanding what's going on here.
^This.
I'm a straight woman who has spent most of her life, working and social, around straight men, in three distinct cultural environments from the first world to the third. Some of these men were sexist pigs, some of them were sensitive new-age empaths, most were somewhere between the two extremes. And guess what. Every single one of them had The Male Gaze. It signifies nothing, and any woman who gets upset by the fact is going to spend their lives being upset.
^This.
If the eye-candy for the men is reduced, does that mean we also need to remove all of the things that women find sexy about Geralt or Iorveth? It's a mistake to think that the equivalent of "Triss Naked" is "Geralt Naked", and that showing Geralt full frontal would somehow signify equality. It's not. Geralt's sexiness is in his hair, his eyes, his scars, his voice, his attitude. Should they be removed?
^This.
Gender inequality isn't the fact that so many women in 13th-century fantasy games are prostitutes, it's the fact that so many women in 21st-century real life are forced into it. It isn't about the fact that a game puts a woman in revealing clothes to please male customers, it's the fact that in real-life a woman can be called a slut, or worse, for wearing clothes like that. It isn't about the fact that every woman wants to fuck Geralt, it's about the fact that in real life some men think they can fuck a woman who DOESN'T want it.
^Not this.
That slide was taken out of context and extrapolated into something that was never there.
^This. QFT.
^And This.
Ladies, accept men for what they are, it's just biology. Men, accept women for what we are - all different. CDPR - just make good games and don't try to do a BSN. People afraid of sex, what Dragon said.
Showing solidarity of the straight woman standing side-by-side with the straight man
What? The only "hate" here has been pretty much coming from you ladies. You are taking this whole thing way too personally.Corylea said:
If you're still fretting over the cooking mama & Wii fit thing at least I provided facts with it. The games have sold millions of copies worldwide and they're especially targeted for women audience, and you have to understand that I personally know many female gamers who play said games and none who play more complicated games such as RPGs. None. And I already asked earlier to provide me with proof of the vast numbers of female gamers who play games like RPGs but you provided me with nothing. You can't just expect people to believe you without providing facts to back up your arguments. And I'll be happily proven wrong.
Secondly. I've always thought that the female members of this forum are one of a kind, and I have huuuuge respect for you ladies. You are amazing with your dedication. Whatever I've said I haven't meant to hurt your feelings and if I have, I apologize.
Thirdly, about "condescension". Even if the majority of female gamers are more interested in making virtual sammiches and exercising in front of a TV, is that such a bad thing? Said people may have their main interests elsewhere, like in art & literature, poetry and music. Who knows. They're probably intellectually more superior than most males here.
So yeah. My 2 cents.
Discussions of this type are often like a two edged sword in that it cuts both ways . They can be healthy and at the same time can come back to bite you in the ass from time to time for something that was said the wrong way or misinterpreted by another person .
First though i would like ALL members of this forum for making this a truly remarkable and fascinating forum ! One that i`m very proud to be a member of and from what i`ve seen of your activity most of you feel the same way . So let`s try to not let our personal feelings get in the way of what makes this forum so great .
I`ve been told at work at how i don`t see the big picture when the company does something that i don`t agree with . Maybe that`s what we have here in that we don`t see or know what CDP`s idea of the big picture is ... only our interpretation of it . The only thing i know is that with any marketable product you have to have a targetable core audience and with that you will always be excluding some set or sets of potential customers .
First though i would like ALL members of this forum for making this a truly remarkable and fascinating forum ! One that i`m very proud to be a member of and from what i`ve seen of your activity most of you feel the same way . So let`s try to not let our personal feelings get in the way of what makes this forum so great .
I`ve been told at work at how i don`t see the big picture when the company does something that i don`t agree with . Maybe that`s what we have here in that we don`t see or know what CDP`s idea of the big picture is ... only our interpretation of it . The only thing i know is that with any marketable product you have to have a targetable core audience and with that you will always be excluding some set or sets of potential customers .
Tommy said:
Indeed
Tommy said:
I agree. My friend is an actuary so I've heard much more troubling statements about business policies (like charging higher insurance rates for certain demographics that are statistically more likely to die). I know that companies generally have to look at statistics and make a cold unemotional decision about what sort of target audience will be the most profitable. I think that's all that the presentation was. I don't think it was meant to be offensive so I'm not offended by it. However I do believe that the current marketing strategy for the Enhanced Edition is much better because they are focusing on the true strengths of the game which should appeal to everybody who is interested in story-driven RPG's.
If you put hetero sex in your game you upset homosexual audience, if you put homo sex in your game you upset heterosexual audience, if you put "male gaze" in your game you upset females, if you put "female gaze" in your game you upset males. Only win situation is to not put sex at all in your game so everyone is happy and can enjoy good story. Just look at bioware production, they put all kind of sex (aka "romances")in their game and upset everyone to the point that user metacritic score for the first few days after me3 release was ~2.0.