Character Customization!

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Is 'Wit' your dump stat?

Your tastes (or lack thereof) notwithstanding, the idea of stats for individual muscles is not a bad suggestion in itself.

It would allow for highly customized physiques --no reason why my PC shouldn't have popeye forearms. It would also allow for bodybuilders, fitness models, etc to be in the game.

A demographic that would go unrepresented. It would also keep a correlation (but not causation) between functionality and aesthetics.

 

[Sardukhar]

Bullet will not ricochet from your brand new ABS. It will penetrate the body, and a matter of luck is if it will, or will not destroy anything important.

Funny thing - that's actually the case. More tissue = less penetration and less damage. This is why I use a .303 to reliably kill even deer, vs a .22 to remove a raccoon. It's also why police forces have moved to the 10mm and .40 calibre, because 9mm and .38 weren't reliable one-shot stoppers.

That's not to say shot placement isn't important. If Arnie takes a head hit in Cyberpunk 2020 or takes 8 damage to the limb, he will have to make a Death Save or die, whereas the 5 yr old could took a torso hit or light graze to the head or limb and be in pain and/or stunned, but no death save.

But if both the 5 child and Arnie are shot or punched for the same damage in the same location, then yes, it will take more raw tissue damage to stop Arnie. Same as shooting a moose vs a raccoon. Cyberpunk 2020 simulates that pretty well.

You refer often to realism in CP2020, and I'm walking in dark here, cause I don't really know the stats aspect of the game. Can you explain to me how it really works in character creation? Cause if it is connected like (not augmented!) BOD 10 limits your END and DEX, I'm totally fine with that.

Of course, my apologies. I shouldn't have assumed. Cyberpunk 2020 has 9 stats - Intelligence, Reflexes, Tech, Cool, Atttractiveness, Luck, Body, Empathy and Movement Allowance. These range from 2 to 10, typically. Although having a high INT doesn't mean a low ATTR, or a high BOD doesn't mean a low REF, you build your character on a point basis, spread across these stats. So, in fact, although my characters have always had a high INT and REF and COOL - I've never had a 10 BOD or LUCK or MA - there just aren't enough points to go around.

And few more words about ambiguity in strength. You say Bruce was strong for a small guy. But i bet, that he can kick and punch harder than lets say Andy Bolton, so in this sense his even stronger than Andy. The type of passive strength you refering to is highly impractical on field. Thats why there is no Arnold, Andy or Pudzianowski body type dudes is military, merc or police. In other words, I don't buy it.

Cyberpunk 2020 handles this by having your Martial Arts technique add to your damage, so Bruce Lee would have indeed kicked and punched harder than Andy Bolton. Keep in mind, though, the adage that a good big guy will beat a good little guy. In other words, given equal skill and stamina, the stronger fighter will win.

This is why you do not see Georges St Pierre, as superb as he is, trying out Cain Velasquez . St. Pierre is the better fighter, apparently, but the size and strength difference is too much.

For another example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6arf1LA4fY&feature=youtu.be&t=2m50s It's just kind of comedic. The little guy can't really get the bigger guy, even in a sport with joint locks and holds.

Of course, it's a tradeoff. Andy Bolton put a lot of his skill points into Power Lifting - up to 10, in fact, which is a major skill investment in Cyberpunk. He doesn't care about his Reflexes much either, or his Awareness/Notice. He can afford to have a Body of 10 or even 12.

Whereas Cain Velasquez or Fedor left their BODY at 8 or 9, but had to have Reflexes 8-10, put points into Awareness/Notice, multiple Martial Arts skills, etc.

And again, there are exceptions. Royce Gracie is one of my favourites for beating bigger guys who are also skilled - but he is almost 180 pounds and 6 feet tall, not some Bruce Lee scale 150 pounder. And he fought years ago, before MMA had absorbed it's many, many tricks that now makes the bigger guys learn grappling and holds.

So, to reiterate - Andy Bolton is much, much stronger than anyone listed as a fighter above, but that's his thing. Anyone above would stomp him in a fight because that's their thing. But everyone above, all the really strong guys, fighters or not, are also big guys. Because muscle takes mass and technique can only do so much when you get to the really strong, ( BOD 9+) category.

 

[Nars]

Funny thing - that's actually the case. More tissue = less penetration and less damage. This is why I use a .303 to reliably kill even deer, vs a .22 to remove a raccoon. It's also why police forces have moved to the 10mm and .40 calibre, because 9mm and .38 weren't reliable one-shot stoppers.

Stopping power, and penetration are two different things. You can mortally shot somebody e.g. on drugs, and he won't even notice, and in fact can lets say stab you, before he die. About penetration: muscles won't stop the bullet. Scientific fact. Bone can, but not muscle. Also, the less power bullet have inside your body, the more lethal it becomes. The bullet shot from bigger caliber gun with more energy tends to move through human body in straight line. Smaller caliber bullet with less energy tend to rotate and spin, turning your guts in chop suey. Thats why 5.56 mm NATO rounds are consider to be more deadly than old good 7.62 mm.

Of course, my apologies. I shouldn't have assumed. Cyberpunk 2020 has 9 stats - Intelligence, Reflexes, Tech, Cool, Atttractiveness, Luck, Body, Empathy and Movement Allowance. These range from 2 to 10, typically. Although having a high INT doesn't mean a low ATTR, or a high BOD doesn't mean a low REF, you build your character on a point basis, spread across these stats. So, in fact, although my characters have always had a high INT and REF and COOL - I've never had a 10 BOD or LUCK or MA - there just aren't enough points to go around.

So only "safety switch" is limited number of points? Better than nothing I guess.

Keep in mind, though, the adage that a good big guy will beat a good little guy. In other words, given equal skill and stamina, the stronger fighter will win.

There is no such thing as equal stamina. More muscles -> greater demand for oxygen -> less stamina. Kinda one of my key points.

hereas Cain Velasquez or Fedor left their BODY at 8 or 9, but had to have Reflexes 8-10, put points into Awareness/Notice, multiple Martial Arts skills, etc.

Ok, now you've lost me. Cause now you apparently can have body 9, and look normal. If Fedor body type is 9 then I have no problem with that.

 

[Sardukhar]

Thats why 5.56 mm NATO rounds are consider to be more deadly than old good 7.62 mm.

By whom? Anyway. Muscle and hide and fat can, of course, stop a bullet - it depends on size and speed. If you shoot a grizzly bear with a .22 round, you may penetrate the hide - it's unlikley you'll get through the fat or muscle layer. It's also true that mass matters when killing. If you don't take out an organ, a larger animal can handle the shock of a .308 round passing into or through it more easily than a smaller one.

Stopping power is, of course, a measure of several things and is actually quite hard to really gauge. There is a chapter in my reloading manual called, 'Why Ballisticians Go Grey" detailing the many issues with predicting what happens when you fire a bullet and what happens when it hits a target. So many factors. But I digress. Stopping power is generally required as the damage caused on-hit that forces a target into shock, bringing whatever they were doing to a sudden conclusion. This has to do with wound elasticity, trauma paths, hydrostatic shock to tissue and so forth. Stopping power and penetration are linked - if you don't penetrate with the round, stopping power isn't worth much. Again, if you're going to get shot or stabbed, it's better to be a big guy than a little guy. Just more mass to disperse the hit through, more space in your body that isn't filled with organs and, of yes, more tissue to slow down incoming rounds. BUT.

BUT. In Cyberpunk 2020, a 5.56 round does 5d6 damage. That's an average of 18. A HUGE guy will reduce that damage by 5 points, so he will take 13 damage. That is all the way from unharmed through Light (1-4 damage) Serious (5-8 damage) Critical (9-12 damage) and 1 into Mortal. Death save. Fail it and die. From one hit with a 5.56.

An Average person would reduce the damage from 18 to 16...which would mean he, too would be in Mortal and making Death Saves.

So you will be pleased to know that the game our beloved REDs are modelling on does, in fact, do what you refer to - make the difference between being Arnold and not-Arnold irrelevant when being hit with a 5.56 round. Where it makes a difference, really, is from smaller rounds, ( putting you into Serious or Critical unless they take out a limb or head, in which case Death Save) or being punched. In these examples, that damage reduction of 3 points difference can help.

So only "safety switch" is limited number of points? Better than nothing I guess.

Yeah, it's better than nothing. It could be a lot more accurate, but Cyberpunk 2020 does try to keep it realistic-ish and still smooth. There are bumps.

There is no such thing as equal stamina. More muscles -> greater demand for oxygen -> less stamina. Kinda one of my key points.

Well, within a certain range. Fedor isn't going to win a marathon - but in a fight lasting a few minutes, Fedor's stamina is legendary. He will easily outlast a marathoner due to his increased anaerobic capacity for speedwork.

Ok, now you've lost me. Cause now you apparently can have body 9, and look normal. If Fedor body type is 9 then I have no problem with that.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Fedor would be a 7-8 by how much he can lift - you would push it to a 8-9 for his damage reduction and STR damage boost. As Ref, I'd have no problem with that at all. I mean, he is a BIG guy. 230 pounds fighting weight, 6 feet tall. He walks down the street, he's obviously a big man. I was Fedor's weight and I am his height and believe me, I was unmistakeably a big guy at 230+ pounds. Heh, it was pretty funny in SE Asia. Lots of stares. A few times, they were bold enough to make direct reference to my size and arms. It would have been flattering, but it was also a huge pain to find shirts or shorts in XXXX.

Mind you, under the strict Cyberpunk rules, Fedor would be a 7 or 8, since I think his lifts are in the 500 pound range. I don't think any Ref would have any real issue with having him look like a Body 8 guy while having a BOD of 9. This isn't the range we were arguing about, though. It's @dragonbird 's desire to have someone with Fedor's power and Bolton's raw strength and look like they are Body 5 or 6, without cyber.

Guys like Bolton are Body 10+. To lift 1200 pounds is Body 12, not normally attainable by the system without cyber. Same for guys like Ronnie Coleman. Just huge.

Edit: On a semi-related note, is anyone else wandering around their house saying "Fedor Emilianko" in a bad Russian accent? I can't seem to stop, either. Fee-door Emeeliaankohh. Damn.

 

[ReptilePZ]

On a semi-related note, is anyone else wandering around their house saying "Fedor Emilianko" in a bad Russian accent? I can't seem to stop, either. Fee-door Emeeliaankohh. Damn.

No. But, for some strange reason, I'm singing this in my head:

[video=youtube;XE-f-Ng_cUA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE-f-Ng_cUA[/video]

replacing Sandokan with Sardukhar. The rest of the lyrics I replace with random gibberish.

 

[Nars]

By whom?

The 5.56×45mm NATO SS109/M855 cartridge (NATO: SS109; U.S.: M855) with standard 62 gr. lead core bullets will penetrate approximately 38 to 51 cm (15 to 20 in) into soft tissue in ideal circumstances. As with all spitzer shaped projectiles it is prone to yaw in soft tissue. However, at impact velocities above roughly 762 m/s (2,500 ft/s), it may yaw and then fragment at the cannelure (the crimping groove around the cylinder of the bullet).

http://youtu.be/50_3Yyo0Nt0?t=4m7s

Sorry Sard, I still consider muscles size negligible in case of gunshot.

BUT. In Cyberpunk 2020, a 5.56 round does 5d6 damage. That's an average of 18. A HUGE guy will reduce that damage by 5 points, so he will take 13 damage. That is all the way from unharmed through Light (1-4 damage) Serious (5-8 damage) Critical (9-12 damage) and 1 into Mortal. Death save. Fail it and die. From one hit with a 5.56.

I like this paragraph.

So you will be pleased to know that the game our beloved REDs are modelling on does, in fact, do what you refer to - make the difference between being Arnold and not-Arnold irrelevant when being hit with a 5.56 round. Where it makes a difference, really, is from smaller rounds, ( putting you into Serious or Critical unless they take out a limb or head, in which case Death Save) or being punched. In these examples, that damage reduction of 3 points difference can help.

I like this paragraph even more.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Fedor would be a 7-8 by how much he can lift - you would push it to a 8-9 for his damage reduction and STR damage boost. As Ref, I'd have no problem with that at all.

Advantage of having a GM. Unfortunately in game there will be only strict set of rules.

I was Fedor's weight and I am his height and believe me, I was unmistakeably a big guy at 230+ pounds. Heh, it was pretty funny in SE Asia. Lots of stares. A few times, they were bold enough to make direct reference to my size and arms. It would have been flattering, but it was also a huge pain to find shirts or shorts in XXXX.

Being 1,95 m, 92 kg myself I understand you so well. I mean whenever I go shopping I get frustrated. You have to choose fitting collar, or fitting sleeves length in any shirt. Come on! Bless internet shopping though.

Mind you, under the strict Cyberpunk rules, Fedor would be a 7 or 8, since I think his lifts are in the 500 pound range. I don't think any Ref would have any real issue with having him look like a Body 8 guy while having a BOD of 9. This isn't the range we were arguing about, though. It's @<a href="http://forums.cdprojektred.com/member.php?u=2000050" target="_blank">dragonbird</a> 's desire to have someone with Fedor's power and Bolton's raw strength and look like they are Body 5 or 6, without cyber.

Body is stat most important for solos, right? Thats why I have such problem with this connection. Big body is useless, in fact it is a disadvantage on the field. Sheer amount of oxygen that your muscle need makes you exhausted after 3 min effort. It is most likely not a realistic thing. Fedor is max that I can accept. Anything above is just plain cartoonish understanding of strenght.

 

[Sardukhar]

Well, I can say only - please don't go hunting a moose, elk or bear with a .22. Even 5.56 is really pushing it. BODY size does matter in terms of gunshot, it really does. Having tried to take a deer with a .22 once, ( doable, but you have to really know what you are doing), it was not...good. "Always Use Enough Gun" is a hunting adage and for good reason. it sucks in every way to have to track a moose or bear, wounded, for a mile to finish it. So I'm told, anyway. Interesting bit about the .223/5.56 - it was designed to "tumble" in the human body because it wasn't as heavy as the .308/7.62mm. Much of the reason the world went to 5.56 was weight and cost. Plenty of Marines still love the 7.62 mm-firing M14.

However, I think we all agree that muscle - and BOD - size doesn't have a lot to do, for humans, with surviving a gunshot above the light calibre range. As Cyberpunk 2020 illustrates quite well. Without cyber and armour, getting in a gunfight even against a .22 is really not a good idea. You can get shot with a .22 repeatedly and survive - I have friends who did this - but anything bigger and you depend on luck.

Well, "on the field" of course is such a variable value. There are some really big soldiers. If you'd like, I can have my buddy Aude, a naval medic who operated in Afghanistan, come up with some images. He worked with USMC and they have some biiig guys. Hey, one of my favourites, Matt Kroc used to be a Marine:

"Critical Bench: Did you power lift while you were enlisted in the Marine Corps?

MK. I did two unsanctioned meets while enlisted. They were just against other Marines and other military personal. They were essentially raw other than knee wraps."

Matt Kroc is a pretty serious, well-educated, very very strong man and former soldier. I don't think his understanding of strength is cartoonish, but I suspect he'd agree with you that above a certain level, such strength doesn't do much for a soldier in the field.

Although most operators are your preferred body shape of about 170-190 pounds, lots of soldier who aren't special forces types do fine. I will note that in Cyberpunk 2020, a BOD of 7-8 is still very effective, reducing damage by 3 points and letting you hit harder than someone of BOD 5. AND, you have more points to put into Intelligence, Reflexes and Cool, always my choice for combat roles.

The BOD stat is fairly important for all Roles, though. BOD is what you make Stun/shock checks against, Death saves and so on. Every Role should try for a minimum Bod of 5 and really, given the strenuous nature of Edgerunner work, 7 isn't a bad idea at all.

Without being condescending, your English is fantastic, especially as we descend into shooting and lifting nitty-gritty. I wish I had any second language half as well.

 

[Nars]

@Sardukhar

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Sardukhar]

@Sardukhar

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

God. Now I feel a failure. Wait right here, I have to go out and atomize myself. Should be back shortly.

 

[wisdom000]

Another thing to consider sard, is that you can always cyber yourself up, the physical stats like BOD (+REF, ME, ATTR,) can be raised, and neither muscle bone lace nor grafted muscle will really change the characters appearance all that drastically... but you can get a +2 to Bod from each...

And thats just what is available in the main book...

INT, Cool, and EMP cannot be raised however..... and such things should definitely factor in to where to decidce to put your stat points...

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

And few more words about ambiguity in strength. You say Bruce was strong for a small guy. But i bet, that he can kick and punch harder than lets say Andy Bolton, so in this sense his even stronger than Andy. The type of passive strength you refering to is highly impractical on field. Thats why there is no Arnold, Andy or Pudzianowski body type dudes is military, merc or police. In other words, I don't buy it.

Arnie won a bodybuilding competition while doing his military service...

 

[Sardukhar]

It would allow for highly customized physiques --no reason why my PC shouldn't have popeye forearms. It would also allow for bodybuilders, fitness models, etc to be in the game.

A demographic that would go unrepresented. It would also keep a correlation (but not causation) between functionality and aesthetics.

I would love for a game to model this kind of physical reality. Games go on about gun physics and car physics, but human kinesiology and muscle/bone movement seems to be mostly motion-capture a guy moving and reuse that a lot.

Imagine how realistic and immersing it would be if your character walked, ran, jumped, fought and even yelled like a real human being, based not on mo-cap or attempts to replicate, but actually mapping what the different muscles and groups, bones and ligaments do as they move and flex, and allowing players to create a character using that data.

You wouldn't have to pick Reflexes 8 and Body 9, you could change how your PC was built on a muscular-skeletal basis and see how that changed your predicted performance graph.

We sure as hell do that for car-driving simulators, after all.

 

[Lolssi83.811]

Arnie won a bodybuilding competition while doing his military service...

Yeah but it's not like he was anywhere near combat. And I'm not sure how relevant being fubar tank driver that military was happy to get rid of is

 

[Suhiira]

Arnie won a bodybuilding competition while doing his military service...

I knew a few really big guys when I was in the service, in fact one guy had to get a special dispensation because his biceps were too large to fit into a standard uniform and another needed one because while his body fat ratio was essentially zero his chest and gut were too large for his height (think fire plug or classic fantasy dwarf).

That said, muscle-power is only loosely related to muscle-tone.
The Mr Universe types stress muscle tone and definition, plenty of fat slobs are strong as hell.
BUT ... there is a general relationship between "Body" and "Size" ... while 98# granny can toss a car pinning her grandson aside with adrenalin normally she's hard pressed to open a stuck jar lid.

 

[wisdom000]

Another thing to remember, is that BOD is also a measure of how hard you can hit, and those body builders and strong man competition dudes... they really don't hit that hard... I mean sure if they get their hands around they will pop you like a grape, but some of them can't even wipe their own ass anymore, let alone throw a decent punch because regardless of how much they can lift, they have lost all dexterity in their oversized out of proportion limbs...

 

[Sardukhar]

they have lost all dexterity in their oversized out of proportion limbs...

Nicely done, sir. Nicely done. Hold still while I go write my proposal to CDPR to make vehicles Fast Travel only, and then submit it in the Secret Admin Forums. WON'T TAKE A MINUTE.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Another thing to remember, is that BOD is also a measure of how hard you can hit, and those body builders and strong man competition dudes... they really don't hit that hard... I mean sure if they get their hands around they will pop you like a grape, but some of them can't even wipe their own ass anymore, let alone throw a decent punch because regardless of how much they can lift, they have lost all dexterity in their oversized out of proportion limbs...

BODY is basically a 'baseline' for physical capabiities, it's the skills that focus that ability. Someone with a BODY stat of 6 and a 'Strength Feat' skill of 10 will be able to bench much higher weights than someone with a raw 10 BODY with no skills to back it up. Likewise a martial artist with BODY 6 and 'Martial Arts' 10 will hit considerably harder than the same chap with BODY 10 but no skills backing him up.

 

[Sardukhar]

BODY is basically a 'baseline' for physical capabiities, it's the skills that focus that ability. Someone with a BODY stat of 6 and a 'Strength Feat' skill of 10 will be able to bench much higher weights than someone with a raw 10 BODY with no skills to back it up. Likewise a martial artist with BODY 6 and 'Martial Arts' 10 will hit considerably harder than the same chap with BODY 10 but no skills backing him up.

Yep. In fact, something like 5 times harder. A lot. A guy with BODY 10 who punches you will hurt you, maybe badly.

A guy with Bod 6 MA 10 hits harder than being shot by a 9mm pistol, on average. He hits about as hard as the average damage from a .357. So although BODY is important, skills rule.

Oh, and due to the skill points, the BODY guy will miss/be blocked a lot - the Martial Artist will hit you accurately for that damage, often, in three seconds.

It's so savage, many REFs actually turn down the HtH damage.

 

[wisdom000]

I turned it down for IU, things had a tendency to get ridiculous....

 

[Suhiira]

I turned it down for IU, things had a tendency to get ridiculous....

Good!

One thing any good RPG needs is to separate "real" damage (knives, bullets, etc.) from "debility" damage (getting punched in the nose).
Sure getting your nose broken is "real" damage, but merely getting it bent and making you see double isn't.