I still firmly believe that downgrade in graphics is one thing and getting rid of actual mechanic is whole other one.
I still firmly believe that downgrade in graphics is one thing and getting rid of actual mechanic is whole other one.
At the 3:15 mark I like that he emphasized "options, not solutions". That's what I want to see in CP2077. Options, not solutions.
The selling point of DS2 was challenging combat, exploration and high difficulty level. Not relations between light and darkness.
The selling point of RS:S is destruction, team play, permadeath.
I believe that even Ubi have some common sense.
No, "combos" for hand-to-hand/melee I can see.
If that's what you meant then then yes some should exist. But other then a handful of fairly specific circumstances I can't see melee coming into play. People tend to rely on firearms, and for good reason. Unlike a good many games no one charges thru a storm of bullets to close to melee distance. Well ... I suppose they could try ... once.
If that's what you meant then then yes some should exist. But other then a handful of fairly specific circumstances I can't see melee coming into play. People tend to rely on firearms, and for good reason. Unlike a good many games no one charges thru a storm of bullets to close to melee distance. Well ... I suppose they could try ... once.
It would be non-sense to exclude a melee system.
Even very violent societies do not use lethal force as a default.
At the very least, there should be basic combos, Ideally custom combos if possible and the ability to dodge,slip strafe,etc.
PLease please for the love of the heavens, make it so that my character doesn't make wide looping arm punches/haymakers like in Fallout.
Crisp, direct, punches please.
Even very violent societies do not use lethal force as a default.
At the very least, there should be basic combos, Ideally custom combos if possible and the ability to dodge,slip strafe,etc.
PLease please for the love of the heavens, make it so that my character doesn't make wide looping arm punches/haymakers like in Fallout.
Crisp, direct, punches please.
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Sure, in Night City, having a gun is pretty common, but I'd say, if CDPR add variety and all, there are chance that you'd start the game, without anything on you and you'd have to fight your way in the crapper, being harassed by homeless gangs, and all, using your fists and some melee weapon.
Plus, in the pnp cyber-arms make 2D6 per hit, it's somewhat enought to stun, if not kill someone, and I'm not even counting the martial arts bonus.
And, most important, when you'll be sneaking around, it's way more interesting to sneak behind a guy, slicing or break his neck than using a weapon.
I can also figure, that once in Night City, it'll be somewhat better to beat someone than using your gun, if noise and all are take in count, firing on someone is the best way to drag out attention. Mostly if you beat down people to loot them when you start the game.
Plus, in the pnp cyber-arms make 2D6 per hit, it's somewhat enought to stun, if not kill someone, and I'm not even counting the martial arts bonus.
And, most important, when you'll be sneaking around, it's way more interesting to sneak behind a guy, slicing or break his neck than using a weapon.
I can also figure, that once in Night City, it'll be somewhat better to beat someone than using your gun, if noise and all are take in count, firing on someone is the best way to drag out attention. Mostly if you beat down people to loot them when you start the game.
+ as suhiir surely knows, if you rough someone up it attracts less retribution then pullling a gun and shooting them in the face.
I'm not entirely sure about the setting of this game. Is it supposed to be as realistic as possible? Thus implying a nearly 100% focus on gun combat. Personally I don't hope they will go for 100% realism. Cause not doing so will open up the possibilities of melee combat. Now this does not mean I think it's okey to make the game non immersive.
Now for combat in general I've noticed people here seem to favor 3rd person slashers like witcher or 3rd person shooters and such. However imo an RPG will shine the most if the player can feel presence, as though he is that character. Not just some semi-god floating above telling the character what to do. This leads to me finding first person to be the most fitting. A button to enter a 3rd person viewing mode would be good though for looking at the character and his or hers outfit.
For range combat I think it is pretty easy to say how it should be done in first person. Make the guns sway when you try to aim them and add alot of recoil. Thus the character skill is very important BUT a player with high skill but low character skill can still aim decently.
Now what I've read so far of peoples thoughts on melee combat it seems as though nobody has the same vision as I do. So let me tell you what imo would make for the most immersive game. The melee combat should be just like the range combat, in first person. It should just as in reality be heavily dependent on how well you move your feet, how well you messure distances and how good you are at blocking. There are nearly no games that do this great but a few that does it atleast good ar: Dishonored (Great game btw, te melee combat works like so that you have one attack button and one block button. Easy as that. If you hold the block no enemy in front of you can hit you. If you time your block the enemy hitting you will get staggerd, thus opening up for you to counter attack. ) next game is chivalry: medieval warfara (A multiplayer title though but has IMO the best melee combat system out there. You have 4 attack direction. Horrisontal left and right, overhead and stab. These might be overkill for a game like this which is sci-fi so one attack direction with combos should be enough. With the RMB you can block, however it is VERY hard compared to dishonored. You cannot hold your block. Instead you always have to time it. Also the weapons hitdetection are much more realistic than in dishonored. The weapon actually have to contact the hitboxes of an enemy. Also you have full controll over your swings. You can begin a swing in one direction but with the mouse move your cursor to another place/enemy)
Another game is Mirrors edge 2. Now I know this is not out yet but look at the e3 2014 trailet! Since cyberpunk will most likely offer robotic enhancment like jump hight and running speed, a parkour system only makes sense. Combine parkour with the fluid parkour-melee system of mirrors edge 2 and it will look great!
That's all for me.
Now for combat in general I've noticed people here seem to favor 3rd person slashers like witcher or 3rd person shooters and such. However imo an RPG will shine the most if the player can feel presence, as though he is that character. Not just some semi-god floating above telling the character what to do. This leads to me finding first person to be the most fitting. A button to enter a 3rd person viewing mode would be good though for looking at the character and his or hers outfit.
For range combat I think it is pretty easy to say how it should be done in first person. Make the guns sway when you try to aim them and add alot of recoil. Thus the character skill is very important BUT a player with high skill but low character skill can still aim decently.
Now what I've read so far of peoples thoughts on melee combat it seems as though nobody has the same vision as I do. So let me tell you what imo would make for the most immersive game. The melee combat should be just like the range combat, in first person. It should just as in reality be heavily dependent on how well you move your feet, how well you messure distances and how good you are at blocking. There are nearly no games that do this great but a few that does it atleast good ar: Dishonored (Great game btw, te melee combat works like so that you have one attack button and one block button. Easy as that. If you hold the block no enemy in front of you can hit you. If you time your block the enemy hitting you will get staggerd, thus opening up for you to counter attack. ) next game is chivalry: medieval warfara (A multiplayer title though but has IMO the best melee combat system out there. You have 4 attack direction. Horrisontal left and right, overhead and stab. These might be overkill for a game like this which is sci-fi so one attack direction with combos should be enough. With the RMB you can block, however it is VERY hard compared to dishonored. You cannot hold your block. Instead you always have to time it. Also the weapons hitdetection are much more realistic than in dishonored. The weapon actually have to contact the hitboxes of an enemy. Also you have full controll over your swings. You can begin a swing in one direction but with the mouse move your cursor to another place/enemy)
Another game is Mirrors edge 2. Now I know this is not out yet but look at the e3 2014 trailet! Since cyberpunk will most likely offer robotic enhancment like jump hight and running speed, a parkour system only makes sense. Combine parkour with the fluid parkour-melee system of mirrors edge 2 and it will look great!
That's all for me.
Well, we still don't know jack about how the game is going to look honnestly (and, that's somehow what piss a lot of us, because we can't really talk about something we don't know...), anyway, the pnp RPG is 100% realist, something really hardcore, you can have your beloved character that you played for month, killed by a single bullet at the wrong place, at the wrong moment, and that's IMO what make Cyberpunk 2020 so much of a great game, because it forces you to adapt your story to a realistic setting, and your player have to scratch their brain so they don't end in a body bag, more thant thinking they are some kind of cyber-superheroes, here you have to play it like in real life.
With any luck at all Maelcom is 100% correct.
The ONLY advantage characters have in CP2020 is that they are characters. Their skills and equipment are no better/worse then anyone elses, they aren't any easier/harder to kill and injure then anyone else.
While "shock and awe" can occasionally carry the day in combat (think a SWAT or commando raid) 99.9% of the time there's a LOT of training and planning behind it not just some guy with a gun shooting everything in sight. A well planned and executed mission uses the minimum amount of bullets possible, NOT because they're fantastic shots but because they shoot only when they have no other choice (and yes, melee when appropriate/needed).
So I hope players that approach CP2077 as if it were your typical FPS get their asses handed to them regularly and wind up screaming bloody murder that the game totally sucks. Whereas the players that think and plan and avoid combat, except when there's no other choice, will be able to accomplish their quest/missions/goals and go on with the game.
But that's JUST my opinion.
The ONLY advantage characters have in CP2020 is that they are characters. Their skills and equipment are no better/worse then anyone elses, they aren't any easier/harder to kill and injure then anyone else.
While "shock and awe" can occasionally carry the day in combat (think a SWAT or commando raid) 99.9% of the time there's a LOT of training and planning behind it not just some guy with a gun shooting everything in sight. A well planned and executed mission uses the minimum amount of bullets possible, NOT because they're fantastic shots but because they shoot only when they have no other choice (and yes, melee when appropriate/needed).
So I hope players that approach CP2077 as if it were your typical FPS get their asses handed to them regularly and wind up screaming bloody murder that the game totally sucks. Whereas the players that think and plan and avoid combat, except when there's no other choice, will be able to accomplish their quest/missions/goals and go on with the game.
But that's JUST my opinion.
Well, with Fallout 4, Mass Effect 4 on the way, etc... Cyberpunk2077 needs it's own "personnality" gameplay wise, it would be a nice thing if CDPR can handle it right.
The whole "thing" about Cyberpunk (the game) is it's lethality, I mean if you can't stand it, go play Shadowrun or whatever, you know, those kind of game with happy ends, dwarves, unicorns and "everyone is happy once you beat the bad guy".
Here, you would have a game that, for once, have you thinking, and you just "cannot" rush into the game, it would give a personality to the game, gamers are too much used nowadays to "hide for 2mn and your health will go full again", here it would be possible only if you bought an hella-expensive nano-surgery, I mean, if you look closely at how the fights are planned, the cure, etc... Cyberpunk2020 is made for this lethal system, if CDPR want to bring something new, they'll have to come with a whole new set of rules... (and the whole thread would somewhat have to go in the CP2020 part, cause we are mostly talking about what we know from the pnp)
If the game want to keep on it's legacy, and bringing some challenge (something that really lacks nowadays too :/), they should keep the game lethal (with maybe a "rookie" mode where you can restore like half or your health, a tutorial and all so people will learn to "take cover before shooting", "never put your gun out first", "if you plan to kill someone, make sure your plan is perfect" etc...
If I play Fallout 4, I know what I'm up too, same for Mass Effect, so I'd say Cyberpunk would need something fresh, that you'd say "Fuck yes! This is Cyberpunk!".
When I look at Cyberpunk, I see a mature game, with written in big red letters "NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH" on the cover.
Something rude, brutal, badass, epic, gritty, and immersive.
A ride in a dark future where you're just a nobody trying to save your ass.
Cyberpunk is not kid game, you'll not having any rewards for being a good boy or doing your homework, your Cyberpunk life is going to sucks (and that's what make it so cool)
You need to be scared for your life, watching you back, etc...
And only a realistic lethality can achieve it, here you would be immersed!
I'm more stressed when I play Counter Strike than Call Of Duty.
Still, as I said, more than "let's pull a hardcore more", I'd say "Let's pull a nood mode for the chickens"
CDPR said "This game will not be for everyone", I understand "If you can't stand to play a game where you're not the boss around, go play something else", Cyberpunk isn't for the gunfreaks, yes there are PLENTY guns, but you'll often be dead in the minute you use them, except if you know what you are doing, and that's what is cool with Cyberpunk, it's to learn what to do.
There is nothing wrong with reloading your last save, it makes you try new things, etc...
Same for the nano-cure, since it's 2077, you can lower the price, if you take a bullet, fix you with some nanites, wait a few seconds for your wounds to repairs (like going to half your life, something like this) and let's go back to work.
Still a headshot is deadly, and should always be (unless with amor and all).
There is nothing more ridiculous than shooting 5 bullets in a guy's head and seeing him running around.
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For my part one of the last things I want to see is typical FPS "fast healing".
Sure there are plenty of drugs and nanos in CP2020 that will speed up healing ... to days instead of weeks, but absolutely nothing even remotely close to fast enough to made a damn bit of difference during combat.
While there's LOTS of "action" in CP it isn't, and by no means should be, an "action game". Combat is a means to an end ... period, it is never, ever a a "goal" in and of itself. If you play some half psycho that thinks they can shoot their to success you'll have a short and glorious career, with emphasis on short.
And a goodly part of that is because there is no, zero, zilch, nada, (insert negative adjective here) way to heal during combat. You get seriously hurt combat is over for you essentially immediately and it'll be days if not weeks before you recover enough to try again. This more then anything else is what makes Cyberpunk different from your standard RPG. To add any sort of "combat healing" will all by itself make the game NOT Cyberpunk but merely a game with the same name and setting.
Sure there are plenty of drugs and nanos in CP2020 that will speed up healing ... to days instead of weeks, but absolutely nothing even remotely close to fast enough to made a damn bit of difference during combat.
While there's LOTS of "action" in CP it isn't, and by no means should be, an "action game". Combat is a means to an end ... period, it is never, ever a a "goal" in and of itself. If you play some half psycho that thinks they can shoot their to success you'll have a short and glorious career, with emphasis on short.
And a goodly part of that is because there is no, zero, zilch, nada, (insert negative adjective here) way to heal during combat. You get seriously hurt combat is over for you essentially immediately and it'll be days if not weeks before you recover enough to try again. This more then anything else is what makes Cyberpunk different from your standard RPG. To add any sort of "combat healing" will all by itself make the game NOT Cyberpunk but merely a game with the same name and setting.
Yes they need to find the right middle, there are pain suppressor, etc...
Also the dismemberment will play and huge part in this, after 8 damage pts in one hit your body part is crushed or blowed away, so anyway it forces you to be even more carefull about what you do.
Also you were talking about how everyone has a gun, but if the "street" setting is somewhat like in Norman Spinrad's cyberpunk books (Little Heroes, and The Plague Years), hand-to-hand and melee fight are perfectly plausible (that's somewhat what I use when I run my games), in his book Little Heroes, the story takes place in new york, there is a "corporate center", watched by police/private-police, and all around a decaying city, filled with bums and edgerunners.
It's made in a realistic way, so most of those people, except for the most high ranked thief, are just a bunch of street punk, living with almost nothing, they loot people but never get more than 10$ cash (a credit card is useless for them), they can't afford a gun, and even if they steal one, they can't buy bullets for it, (or will think that buying food/drug that they're addicted to, instead is way smarter) so a knife is a way better investment for them, they're malnourished, skinny and just thinking about beating a cop or a healthy guy to steal his gun is just suicidal for them, except for a few freaks under dope or whatever.
If you're trapped in the middle of a gang of homeless people, I doubt they would have more than 1 handgun with a full ammo clip at best. The movie Street Trash gives an overall idea of how it could look like
That's the way I see Night City, there are rich people, some poor people that can make their living out of the crap, having a job and somewhere to live, and a lot, poorer, that live with barely what they need to survive, they can't afford good cybernetic, if any cybernetic at all, squats ruins/subway, just like our everyday bums, but in a way bigger numbers, high on dope/alcool, hiding in dark area to beat people who'd walk by and steal their good, some totaly lost and wandering around, some crazy, etc...
Same for the Corporate area, there are surely be some place where you just can't bring a gun, so there you'll have to throw some punch if troubles comes in.
Also the dismemberment will play and huge part in this, after 8 damage pts in one hit your body part is crushed or blowed away, so anyway it forces you to be even more carefull about what you do.
Also you were talking about how everyone has a gun, but if the "street" setting is somewhat like in Norman Spinrad's cyberpunk books (Little Heroes, and The Plague Years), hand-to-hand and melee fight are perfectly plausible (that's somewhat what I use when I run my games), in his book Little Heroes, the story takes place in new york, there is a "corporate center", watched by police/private-police, and all around a decaying city, filled with bums and edgerunners.
It's made in a realistic way, so most of those people, except for the most high ranked thief, are just a bunch of street punk, living with almost nothing, they loot people but never get more than 10$ cash (a credit card is useless for them), they can't afford a gun, and even if they steal one, they can't buy bullets for it, (or will think that buying food/drug that they're addicted to, instead is way smarter) so a knife is a way better investment for them, they're malnourished, skinny and just thinking about beating a cop or a healthy guy to steal his gun is just suicidal for them, except for a few freaks under dope or whatever.
If you're trapped in the middle of a gang of homeless people, I doubt they would have more than 1 handgun with a full ammo clip at best. The movie Street Trash gives an overall idea of how it could look like
That's the way I see Night City, there are rich people, some poor people that can make their living out of the crap, having a job and somewhere to live, and a lot, poorer, that live with barely what they need to survive, they can't afford good cybernetic, if any cybernetic at all, squats ruins/subway, just like our everyday bums, but in a way bigger numbers, high on dope/alcool, hiding in dark area to beat people who'd walk by and steal their good, some totaly lost and wandering around, some crazy, etc...
Same for the Corporate area, there are surely be some place where you just can't bring a gun, so there you'll have to throw some punch if troubles comes in.
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See above.
If you get a thrill out of clubbing virtual baby seals (unarmed and helpless opponents) more power to you.
I prefer virtual opponents that can and will actually fight back.
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Ahhh...choices.
I believe in choices. The PnP is, generally, how Suhiir describes it. Caveat - depending on cleverness and resourcefulness of players/allowed power level of campaign.
If the game is open-ended, without set limits, and you have clever players who know what they are doing, you can make some GOD AWFUL bad ass characters. Been there, seen that. Hyper fast, hyper accurate, able to burst hit and kill 4-10 people, ( or more, even, with heavy weapons) in 3.2 seconds, the length of a single round, survive or avoid multiple high-impact hits, escape, evade, come back in and do it all again in less than ten seconds...yes. Yes, you can build cybernetic superkillers. IF you have the budget and the setting allows or you rig it.
Typically, not a very likely scenario and with a high cost-to-benefit ratio.
Anyway, choices. I think difficulty modes should determine distance-from-PnP rules.
1.Matrix mode: you're in it for the story and the sights. Combat is easy, damage is healing, you can fight better than 90% of your opponents whether you know the system or not. PnP is a flavour only, names and whatnot. Combat system is not very PnP at all, save things like 3 round burst, aimed shots, martial art maneuvers, etc. Lots of saves, auto saves, etc. You can even respec your skills! That's a thing now.
2. Street mode: you're still in it for the story, of course, but now gameplay is part of the challenge. PnP rules show up. There is healing, but it's slow and only with certain gear or drugs. Headshots are bad news, cover is a really good idea, but you won't have to make death saves from limb hits and we don't worry too much about encumbrance or actions/3.2 second.There are lots of bad guys but you can still win. A nice combo, where knowing the rules helps make tough or optimized characters, but enough leeway to learn as you go. Still lots of saves. Respec also. You can fight better than 60% of your opponents.
3. Edgerunner mode: The PnP rules as best as they can be implemented in a video game, allowing healing only from very specific cyber and medical care, only slowly across a substantial timeframe, like days. As many PnP rules as can be packed in, are. Limb hits hurt, drugs are addictive, inventory is limited, initiative is checked against your stats vs enemy AI, as is accuracy vs initiative, stats are really important. Know Your Shit or get wrecked. Opponents are limited to realistic amounts, but at least they can't shoot any better than you! Unless they can. If you can think of a PnP rule, it's in here. Respec at a substantial cost, if at all.
4. 2020: Same as Edgerunner, only just one life. One save, autosaves with an automatic backup feature that refreshes every two hours of play, just in case. No respec, number and complexity of opponents whatever the situation warrants.Trauma Team account STRONGLY recommended.
I believe in choices. The PnP is, generally, how Suhiir describes it. Caveat - depending on cleverness and resourcefulness of players/allowed power level of campaign.
If the game is open-ended, without set limits, and you have clever players who know what they are doing, you can make some GOD AWFUL bad ass characters. Been there, seen that. Hyper fast, hyper accurate, able to burst hit and kill 4-10 people, ( or more, even, with heavy weapons) in 3.2 seconds, the length of a single round, survive or avoid multiple high-impact hits, escape, evade, come back in and do it all again in less than ten seconds...yes. Yes, you can build cybernetic superkillers. IF you have the budget and the setting allows or you rig it.
Typically, not a very likely scenario and with a high cost-to-benefit ratio.
Anyway, choices. I think difficulty modes should determine distance-from-PnP rules.
1.Matrix mode: you're in it for the story and the sights. Combat is easy, damage is healing, you can fight better than 90% of your opponents whether you know the system or not. PnP is a flavour only, names and whatnot. Combat system is not very PnP at all, save things like 3 round burst, aimed shots, martial art maneuvers, etc. Lots of saves, auto saves, etc. You can even respec your skills! That's a thing now.
2. Street mode: you're still in it for the story, of course, but now gameplay is part of the challenge. PnP rules show up. There is healing, but it's slow and only with certain gear or drugs. Headshots are bad news, cover is a really good idea, but you won't have to make death saves from limb hits and we don't worry too much about encumbrance or actions/3.2 second.There are lots of bad guys but you can still win. A nice combo, where knowing the rules helps make tough or optimized characters, but enough leeway to learn as you go. Still lots of saves. Respec also. You can fight better than 60% of your opponents.
3. Edgerunner mode: The PnP rules as best as they can be implemented in a video game, allowing healing only from very specific cyber and medical care, only slowly across a substantial timeframe, like days. As many PnP rules as can be packed in, are. Limb hits hurt, drugs are addictive, inventory is limited, initiative is checked against your stats vs enemy AI, as is accuracy vs initiative, stats are really important. Know Your Shit or get wrecked. Opponents are limited to realistic amounts, but at least they can't shoot any better than you! Unless they can. If you can think of a PnP rule, it's in here. Respec at a substantial cost, if at all.
4. 2020: Same as Edgerunner, only just one life. One save, autosaves with an automatic backup feature that refreshes every two hours of play, just in case. No respec, number and complexity of opponents whatever the situation warrants.Trauma Team account STRONGLY recommended.
In the real world, the zodiac killer was never caught, and he killed people over the span of several years.
The rate of unresolved murders is what...... 40% in the US?
Probably ridiculously higher in the third world states that Night City resembles?
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