Platform Discussion Thread

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Technically things have improved by a lot, but that still didn't help. [...]

Technical advancement is about fair competition. Platform politics problems are about unfair one, and so far I'm not sure solving them with purely technical improvements would work. They still don't hurt of course. Growing Linux user base makes life for the "elephant" harder despite unfair methods.

 

[doktor_fleck]

Well, ok. Let's define something here:
Is Linux a gaming platform (can it run games)? Yes, it is. But I'm pretty sure that even some supercomputers can run games, it does not mean that they are a good gaming platform. For me a good platform has:
- almost all the new triple A games available on launch
- it's easy to operate: click "install game", wait, click "play"

Sure, Linux can run some games. Perhaps even some of those run better than Windows. Does it mean that it's a good gaming platform? In my opinion it is not. I don't want to wait for Wine team to prepare a Windows game to run on Linux. I want to play it as soon as it's there.

We can discuss how some companies are evil and have a monopoly, but for a typical gamer it does not matter. If you have a mission to save the human race form MS-Evil, sure, go ahead. But stop telling everyone that Linux is a viable gaming alternative if you want to play 99% of the latest games, because it is not.

We are going through this for over a year and 12 months changed nothing - there are still 1% Linux gamers on Steam. Linux may be a good gaming platform in the future, but it's very unlikely.

 

[theg4dfly]

Technically things have improved by a lot, but that still didn't help. [...]

Technical advancement is about fair competition. Platform politics problems are about unfair one, and so far I'm not sure solving them with purely technical improvements would work. They still don't hurt of course. Growing Linux user base makes life for the "elephant" harder despite unfair methods.

Yes, it's unfair. Windows has the advantage of coming first and already has a huge marketshare. Every entity starts at an unfair disadvantage to the industry leader. However, I'm optimistic that the paradigm will shift, especially if Vulkan becomes better than its counterpart for developers.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

But stop telling everyone that Linux is a viable gaming alternative if you want to play 99% of the latest games, because it is not.

First of all, I can tell everyone Linux is a vailable gaming platform because it is. If you have some personal grudge against Linux, that's not a reason for anyone to stop telling others that Linux is an option for gaming. Also, if you personally are fine with corporate corruption, it doesn't mean everyone else has to be oblivious to it.

Secondly, that's the whole point. Studios should start releasing games for Linux, then Linux gamers won't need to rely on Wine for running their games.

Yes, it's unfair. Windows has the advantage of coming first and already has a huge marketshare. Every entity starts at an unfair disadvantage to the industry leader.

That's not what's unfair in platform politics. In fair competition coming later but with better product is enough to gain customers. Unfair one prevents it even if your product is better. That's why in theory there are competition laws (also known as anti-trust laws) to prevent that. The problem is that in practice they were rendered almost toothless by interested parties. So in such competition it's hard to break the logjam due to unfair market manipulation even if you supplied the technical side perfectly.

 

[doktor_fleck]

First of all, I can tell everyone Linux is a vailable gaming platform because it is. If you have some personal grudge against Linux, that's not a reason for anyone to stop telling others that Linux is an option for gaming. Also, if you personally are fine with corporate corruption, it doesn't mean anyone else has to be.

Secondly, that's the whole point. Studios should start releasing games for Linux, then Linux gamers won't need to rely on Wine for running their games.

Why? Why should studios relase games on Linux? What incentive do they have? Let's do a exercise: try to convince an, let's say Ubisoft or EA, or Obsidian executive to develop natively for Linux.

And no: if I go with my definition, which is "viable gaming platform is a platform which runs at least 95% of all triple A games on launch" then Linux is not a viable gaming platform. For you it is and i can accept that. For me and for 99% of Steam users it isn't.

 

[theg4dfly]

Well, ok. Let's define something here:
Is Linux a gaming platform (can it run games)? Yes, it is. But I'm pretty sure that even some supercomputers can run games, it does not mean that they are a good gaming platform. For me a good platform has:
- almost all the new triple A games available on launch
- it's easy to operate: click "install game", wait, click "play"

We are going through this for over a year and 12 months changed nothing - there are still 1% Linux gamers on Steam. Linux may be a good gaming platform in the future, but it's very unlikely.

Even going by your definition, I think that Linux can be a good gaming platform in the near future if the paradigm shifts to developing triple A games primarily with Vulkan. This has to happen naturally in my opinion, as there isn't any monetary leverage to force developers to use the latter, but I think the odds of this happening are more than "very unlikely". Linux is a secure, free, and more efficient OS. It just needs the game dev tools to catch up.

As far as usability, this shouldn't be much of an issue on Linux nowadays. Try some user-friendly distros with GUI installers and download Steam. It's basically already "install game", wait, click "play".

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

@doktor_fleck: I already explained to you why, feel free to read the above thread. And, feel free to stick to Windows and cheer for corpo corruption or make your own definitions (however don't expect anyone to use them then). But you were telling me to stop saying that Linux is a vailable gaming platform. What was that about?

 

[doktor_fleck]

Even going by your definition, I think that Linux can be a good gaming platform in the near future if the paradigm shifts to developing triple A games primarily with Vulkan. This has to happen naturally in my opinion, as there isn't any monetary leverage to force developers to use the latter, but I think the odds of this happening are more than "very unlikely". Linux is a secure, free, and more efficient OS. It just needs the game dev tools to catch up.

As far as usability, this shouldn't be much of an issue on Linux nowadays. Try some user-friendly distros with GUI installers and download Steam. It's basically already "install game", wait, click "play".

The main issue is: it may. IF, and it's a big if, Linux gain traction as a proper gaming platofrm, then I can consider switching. For now, there is no point.

Post automatically merged: Jul 12, 2020

@doktor_fleck: I already explained to you why, feel free to read the above thread. And, feel free to stick to Windows and cheer for corpo corruption or make your own definitions (however don't expect anyone to use them then). But you were telling me to stop saying that Linux is a vailable gaming platform. What was that about?

No, you never did. You never answered why a income driven company should invest extra money to potentially expand their target population by one percent.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

No, you never did. You never answered why a income driven company should invest extra money to potentially expand their target population by one percent.

You didn't pay attention, so I'll just sum up points that simply make your questions non questions to begin with:

* Developers are already releasing for Linux, so Linux gaming market is profitable and viable. It is also gradually growing.
* Why they are releasing can be many things from simply more profits (regular business reason) to reaching wider audience (regular artist / creator's reason). They both apply.

So, claim that market is not viable is invalid. Claim that developers have no reason to release for Linux is also invalid.

The question that really is interesting is why some don't release for Linux, not why some would release for Linux. And I answered that too - today the only major reason some don't release for Linux is platform politics. Especially when we are talking about competent studios that already have needed expertise. Cases when people simply have no experience are different and we can assume we are talking about those who do have it.

 

[doktor_fleck]

You didn't pay attention, so I'll just sum up points that simply make your questions non questions to begin with:

* Developers are already releasing for Linux, so Linux gaming market is profitable and viable. It is also gradually growing.
* Why they are releasing can be many things from simply more profits (regular business reason) to reaching wider audience (regular artist / creator's reason). They both apply.

So, claim that market is not viable is invalid. Claim that developers have no reason to release for Linux is also invalid.

The question that really is interesting is why some don't release for Linux, not why some would release for Linux. And I answered that too - today the only major reason some don't release for Linux is platform politics. Especially when we are talking about competent studios that already have needed expertise. Cases when people simply have no experience are different and we can assume we are talking about those who do have it.

Sorry, but it's not enough.
- What studios? How many? How many are producing triple A games? Was their Linux port released at the same time as Windows one? I'm pretty sure that there are some people making content for Commodore, it does not mean that it's a viable gaming platform.

I never said that ALL developers don't have reasons to develop for Linux. Only the biggest, most successful ones. That is the problem and your only explanation is some bizarre conspiracy theory.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Sorry, but it's not enough.

Not enough for what? If you want to write a paper on the gaming market, I recommend you making proper research yourself, instead of asking questions on the forum. For explaining things on the high level the above is more than enough.

Post automatically merged: Jul 12, 2020

I never said that ALL developers don't have reasons to develop for Linux. Only the biggest, most successful ones.

And what you said is not correct, because whether developers are big or successful has nothing to do with reasons not to release for wider audience or not getting more profits. Those who don't release don't do it because they are big or successful. But because platform politics most commonly interests legacy publishers, who happen to be huge companies. But just because company is big doesn't mean that it has to be sucked into platform politics. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

But I somewhat agree, that for bigger companies, the risk of such things is higher, due to bigger pressure from backwards thinking management which becomes more prevalent the bigger companies get. I.e. if you assume the bigger it gets, the more legacy and backwards thinking it becomes, then yeah, you could say that big companies are less expected to release for Linux because of their size. But that's not a set in stone dependency, and really depends on those who run the company.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Xbox series S officially at 299$.
Series X at 499$
Both coming on November 10th.
The price is just perfect.

Let's hope Sony makes its move ASAP, no need to wait anymore.

And then I can decide.

 

[CyberBrett]

Xbox series S officially at 299$.
Series X at 499$
Both coming on November 10th.
The price is just perfect.

Let's hope Sony makes its move ASAP, no need to wait anymore.

And then I can decide.

That`s not bad works out to 685.26 Australian Dollars , i hope PS5 is close in price .

I just found it for $549

 

[parasite_avi]

I am not an expert here, but I think we may see both DirectX and Vulcan. I think DOOM (2016) did that?

 

[doktor_fleck]

I am not an expert here, but I think we may see both DirectX and Vulcan. I think DOOM (2016) did that?

You mean for Cyberpunk 2077? CP2077 will not support Vulcan - only DX

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

That`s not bad works out to 685.26 Australian Dollars , i hope PS5 is close in price .

I just found it for $549

In Europe Is 1:1. Very nice prices.

Oh, btw, just bought an LGb9 55", full hdmi 2.1. Ready for next gen, baby!

 

[Cargan2016]

Xbox series S officially at 299$.
Series X at 499$
Both coming on November 10th.
The price is just perfect.

Let's hope Sony makes its move ASAP, no need to wait anymore.

And then I can decide.

rumored is ps 5 will be the 499 pricemark as well

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Comparable to a price on high end GPU.

 

[SigilFey]

Comparable to a price on high end GPU.

While I'm personally bummed to see consoles going for more than $300 US...this is a good point.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

rumored is ps 5 will be the 499 pricemark as well

That's what logic would say, even considering that it's less powerful. Still, I've learned not to trust Sony in the last few years.