CDPR situation - Open letter

[the_ktt]

Well... no.
Demo is for demonstrating a work-in-progress product, an already implemented code that is further expanded.
POC is for demonstrating of how the product is intended to look like and behave, but it's just a mockup and in no way it can be called a demo.
Good example of something similar are edible products adverts. There are a ton of videos on the iternet that shows how some of them are prepared, e.g. engine oil as a maple syrup, or mashed potatos with food coloring as icecream. They look real (or even better than real) and delicious, but it doesn't demonstrate the actual product, only the intended look of it.
Fakeness of this "demo" comes from it not being one. This wasn't the playable with full-on mechanics demo.

Fake is the mechanism behind it not the final result. It's like you see a concept drawing and you complain the character in 3d doesn't look the same.

When you buy a hamburger in mc you don't get the same as in ads because the ads are fake. When you watch this demo you get pretty much same thing, hence it's not fake. It shows you how they want the game to look and it shows it well.

It's like you see a car prototype, you buy it one year later and then you learn that the prototype was fake, because it had no engine inside it... Well, it was a demonstration not a test drive.

Demo is a demonstration, demonstration means a show. What you added sounds like game demo, this is a video not a playable demo. There is no definition of that a demonstration must have working code to be a demo... Where did you get that from?

...

Thanks, had a good laugh!

"A merc in a dystopian future city. Perfect setup for meshing open world exploration and diversion along with the overarching narrative on the main questline."

This is definitely what we got or at least me, i try not to force people into what I feel.

 

[trashpunk69]

yes, i love the gameplay. the interactions with story characters are fantastic.
the gunplay is fun and the skill progression is rewarding.
i dont care about a wanted system or interacting with random npcs

Same here. I love it. Everything is simply fun and rewarding. The interactions on the street with next-gen story characters are breath taking. The streets, cars and physics is fun and the skill progression is like a crack addiction - you simply cant stop.

I dont care about some AI or interacting with anything at all. This stupid GTA wanted system is outdated anyway. I bet Rockstar Games didnt even know how to spawn police out of nowhere right behind you.

Perhaps in order to increase the fun factor, hot fix patch 34.19 should include a random teleportation feature where your character just randomly teleports to various locations.

 

[the_ktt]

Same here. I love it. Everything is simply fun and rewarding. The interactions on the street with next-gen story characters are breath taking. The streets, cars and physics is fun and the skill progression is like a crack addiction - you simply cant stop.

I dont care about some AI or interacting with anything at all. This stupid GTA wanted system is outdated anyway. I bet Rockstar Games didnt even know how to spawn police out of nowhere right behind you.

Perhaps in order to increase the fun factor, hot fix patch 34.19 should include a random teleportation feature where your character just randomly teleports to various locations.

Man, CDPR should hire you for writing some funny parts for them

 

[CS554]

Fake is the mechanism behind it not the final result. It's like you see a concept drawing and you complain the character in 3d doesn't look the same.

When you buy a hamburger in mc you don't get the same as in ads because the ads are fake. When you watch this demo you get pretty much same thing, hence it's not fake. It shows you how they want the game to look and it shows it well.

It's like you see a car prototype, you buy it one year later and then you learn that the prototype was fake, because it had no engine inside it... Well, it was a demonstration not a test drive.

Demo is a demonstration, demonstration means a show. What you added sounds like game demo, this is a video not a playable demo. There is no definition of that a demonstration must have working code to be a demo... Where did you get that from?

I don't think there's really argument going on there, but perhaps you are just talking past each others for semantical reasons?

I didn't follow the hype, left all that years ago. Where we have been for a while is flying cars and stuff like that even I know were never promised surfacing in these discussions over and over again. I know Pondsmith himself said to CDPR when they were making plans, to not do flying cars as it would make things too complicated.

 

[Czembro]

Demo is a demonstration, demonstration means a show. What you added sounds like game demo, this is a video not a playable demo. There is no definition of that a demonstration must have working code to be a demo... Where did you get that from?

As I said, I'm a software developer and in this industry (and I believe any that involves code impllementation, video games included) the distinguish between proof-of-concept (what you're mistakingly calling a demo) and demo is pretty relevant, because first is just to show the idea of a product, while the latter is product in development. At some point both might even look the same, but one isn't functional while the other one is.

When I'm working on any project there are phases, one of the first ones is creating a proof-of-concept, a sort-of visual representation of an application that will be implemented. While just looking at it it might seem real, in reality it can just be a series of images prepared by designer, connected by simple button clicking.

The demo on the other hand comes during the actual implmentation, generally in regular intervals, and is the showing of implemented views, features, etc., something that is a work-in-progress product.

If you search for the definition of demonstration you will find this

which is in line of what I'm describing. In order to demonstrate something you need to have something to demonstrate. In order to demonstrate a game you need a playable part of this game. If what was shown on this video wasn't really playable, but was just a series of models and animations connected with prepared script instead of actually working under-the-hood mechanics, then it wasn't a demo of a game, rather a demo of models, textures and animations, hence proof-of-concept.

 

[gregski]

As I said, I'm a software developer and in this industry (and I believe any that involves code impllementation, video games included) the distinguish between proof-of-concept (what you're mistakingly calling a demo) and demo is pretty relevant, because first is just to show the idea of a product, while the latter is product in development. At some point both might even look the same, but one isn't functional while the other one is.

When I'm working on any project there are phases, one of the first ones is creating a proof-of-concept, a sort-of visual representation of an application that will be implemented. While just looking at it it might seem real, in reality it can just be a series of images prepared by designer, connected by simple button clicking.

The demo on the other hand comes during the actual implmentation, generally in regular intervals, and is the showing of implemented views, features, etc., something that is a work-in-progress product.

If you search for the definition of demonstration you will find thisView attachment 11168894
which is in line of what I'm describing. In order to demonstrate something you need to have something to demonstrate. In order to demonstrate a game you need a playable part of this game. If what was shown on this video wasn't really playable, but was just a series of models and animations connected with prepared script instead of actually working under-the-hood mechanics, then it wasn't a demo of a game, rather a demo of models, textures and animations, hence proof-of-concept.

It's called vertical slice.

https://askagamedev.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F77406994278

Vertical Slice

A vertical slice is a portion of a game which acts as a proof of concept for stakeholders before they agree to fund the rest. It is not the same thing as a prototype in that it is expected to look of final quality and play like the final game....

www.whatgamesare.com

 

[Czembro]

It's called vertical slice.

https://askagamedev.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F77406994278

Vertical Slice

A vertical slice is a portion of a game which acts as a proof of concept for stakeholders before they agree to fund the rest. It is not the same thing as a prototype in that it is expected to look of final quality and play like the final game....

www.whatgamesare.com

View attachment 11168927

Thanks for that, this is exactly what I was talking about! The demo of the video game needs to demonstrate working systems and features. The whole fuss around what was presented in 2018 is if those systems and features were actually working under-the-hood or if all of it was scripted.

 

[the_ktt]

As I said, I'm a software developer and in this industry (and I believe any that involves code impllementation, video games included) the distinguish between proof-of-concept (what you're mistakingly calling a demo) and demo is pretty relevant, because first is just to show the idea of a product, while the latter is product in development. At some point both might even look the same, but one isn't functional while the other one is.

When I'm working on any project there are phases, one of the first ones is creating a proof-of-concept, a sort-of visual representation of an application that will be implemented. While just looking at it it might seem real, in reality it can just be a series of images prepared by designer, connected by simple button clicking.

The demo on the other hand comes during the actual implmentation, generally in regular intervals, and is the showing of implemented views, features, etc., something that is a work-in-progress product.

If you search for the definition of demonstration you will find thisView attachment 11168894
which is in line of what I'm describing. In order to demonstrate something you need to have something to demonstrate. In order to demonstrate a game you need a playable part of this game. If what was shown on this video wasn't really playable, but was just a series of models and animations connected with prepared script instead of actually working under-the-hood mechanics, then it wasn't a demo of a game, rather a demo of models, textures and animations, hence proof-of-concept.

Well, they called it a demo, demo can also be a demonstration, just like mod explained. Like TV series have a pilot, it's not like they have all episodes recorded. Would you call a pilot fake too?

I'm a dev too and we went with playable demo instead of vertical slice.

Either way, calling this "Demo" fake is using a concept and manipulating it into something that is negative just to rant and that's my point.

 

[Czembro]

Well, they called it a demo, demo can also be a demonstration, just like mod explained. Like TV series have a pilot, it's not like they have all episodes recorded. Would you call a pilot fake too?

What? The article posted by @gregski literally supports what I was saying from the very beginning - the demo of the game, "vertical slice" or the "first playable", no matter how you call it, must show actual systems and features in the work, not just being a facade that looks nice but isn't playable.

The people who write the checks will want to see some sort of demo of the product working before they start paying for developers to come on and work on it. So what do you do? (...) You can show a prototype for each system to the check-writers, but just because the individual parts are good doesn’t mean you can easily put them all together for a fun product. So what you need to show is a “vertical slice”. This is sometimes also called a “first playable”.

I'm a dev too and we went with playable demo instead of vertical slice.

Playable demo must be a "vertical slice". You can't have a playable demo, without implementing necessary systems and features.

Either way, calling this "Demo" fake is using a concept and manipulating it into something that is negative just to rant and that's my point.

No, if this "demo" wasn't really playable, which was the case if what former CDP/CDPR employees said was true, then it wasn't a demo. Demo needs to be playable, needs to have features implemented. Without it, it's just a presentation of visuals, textures, models - a proof of concept of how the game might look visually, but not how it will play.

 

[Mentos3]

It's called vertical slice.

https://askagamedev.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F77406994278

Vertical Slice

A vertical slice is a portion of a game which acts as a proof of concept for stakeholders before they agree to fund the rest. It is not the same thing as a prototype in that it is expected to look of final quality and play like the final game....

www.whatgamesare.com

View attachment 11168927

You got the link on "speed dial", right?
01/19/2021 -- 19.01.2021

If I would go to a customer and would demonstrate them a product, where important elements are missing 2 years later, without telling them and fullprice to release, they would rip my head off.

Nothing else is happening to CDPR now. They can be happy that they are making software for "entertainment", not for professionell purposes.

Edit: Oh, I was talking to a mod

Okay finshed with work, I read the link that you posted and maybe my englisch is worse like hell. But I didn't read anything that a "vertical slice" implicates that a customer should be aware that elements in the "demonstration" could be scripted. And I don't think that it is meant like that.

The question is still open, article:

The vertical slice is a small, self-contained chunk of the game that allows someone to play through it and see all of the major systems of the game working together.

So how could "we" see the difference between a ambush that was scripted or one that the AI processed?

Picking one problem of CP: I can't remember that they told us, that the game isn't capable of car/police chase. Not 2018, not 12/2020. I played GTA, Watchdogs 2 and others, of course I was thinking 2018 it would not be scripted in the released game. For me (and milions others who played games like that) this is state of the art.
f.e.

I think that was after the Schreier-Article where he wrote that the "demo" was heavy scripted. I could find a YongYea-Video of 2019? where (ex-)employees said that CDPR did the same thing with W2. But I don't want to repeat myself.

Oh and to throw my profession in the open space, too: I'm an Inhouse IT-Consultant, meaning customer-orientaed.
So "Vertical slice" is no excuse/explanation imho.

 

[GHOSTMD]

It's called vertical slice.

https://askagamedev.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F77406994278

Vertical Slice

A vertical slice is a portion of a game which acts as a proof of concept for stakeholders before they agree to fund the rest. It is not the same thing as a prototype in that it is expected to look of final quality and play like the final game....

www.whatgamesare.com

View attachment 11168927

Indeed Gregski, it was a good slice, even the 2019 one was close to the vision the devs had.
Point is, the Cyberpunk 2077 we got, strayed way to far from what was shown as proof of concept.
I know proof of concept means just, show what is possible. Thing is ppl expect at least the same
level once something that detailed is shown, or more, here in the final product we got way less.

Cyberpunk 2077 suffers heavy from the cuts and the rushed release. I still think CDPR leaders
the ones who call the final decisions, should make a humongous REWORK PATCH happen.
Only then CP77 has the chance to reach that goal CDPR claimed for themself, getting more
of what Witcher 3 was. Doesn t mean CP77 is a bad game, it just suffers so heavy from cut backs,
that the rly good things get somewhat washed away.

By now there are already enough videos, feedback threads about what needs to come back
to make CP77 "finished". Not intent to relist it all, heck i tried and provided a honest feedback
beyond CP77, *hmpf* we both know how that ended, aye.


After that, my old friend, you understand that i have my doubts CDPR can turn things, 30 years of
being a video game player tell me exactly where CDPR is heading and this is sad. Even more
so regarding the community itself. Dunno, perhaps i just should listen to the others from the
old guard and stop caring so much. Being here for over 8 years, seeing what this community turns
into... ye that makes me sad/angry/frustrated.

Anyway, regarding the Cyberpunk 2077 "fixing", MY VOTE is on a ENHANCED EDITION LEVEL rework
patch. So CP77 will be closer to the vertical slice we have seen. Guess that is a good sum up.

 

[mbrto]

Same here. I love it. Everything is simply fun and rewarding. The interactions on the street with next-gen story characters are breath taking. The streets, cars and physics is fun and the skill progression is like a crack addiction - you simply cant stop.

I dont care about some AI or interacting with anything at all. This stupid GTA wanted system is outdated anyway. I bet Rockstar Games didnt even know how to spawn police out of nowhere right behind you.

Perhaps in order to increase the fun factor, hot fix patch 34.19 should include a random teleportation feature where your character just randomly teleports to various locations.

thank god cyberpunk isnt just another gta clone.
the wanted system is a essential gameplay mechanic in gta because half of the quests involve the player committing a crime and being chased by the police afterwards.
the story & characters arent particulary interesting so players usually get bored and go on a rampage.
this has been the case for every gta title since 1997 with only one notable exception.

there is only one quest in cp2077 that would benefit from such a system.
spending time and resources on such a nieche feature would be insanity.

as a result, going on a rampage isnt fun in cyberpunk. but thats fine by me.
cdpr should stick to what they do best and leave the rampage shooters to other developers who have been doing this for decades

 

[Czembro]

spending time and resources on such a nieche feature would be insanity.

Guess they are insane then, as for some reason we have customizable genitals, that are only visible during character creation and inventory menu. Since they had time for something so useless like that, I would much more prefer for them to spend it on a somewhat functional wanted system.

 

[mbrto]

Guess they are insane then, as for some reason we have customizable genitals, that are only visible during character creation and inventory menu. Since they had time for something so useless like that, I would much more prefere for them to spend it on a somewhat functional wanted system.

you would have to cut way more content than penis 1 and 2 to free resources for such a massive undertaking.
my guess is you wouldnt be happy with that either

 

[Mentos3]

the story & characters arent particulary interesting so players usually get bored and go on a rampage.

Really? Besides Gerald and Arthur, Trevor is my most favourite character in every game I played so far.

there is only one quest in cp2077 that would benefit from such a system.
spending time and resources on such a nieche feature would be insanity.

Even if "rampagne" isn't a key feature of CP2077, police shouldn't materialized behind your back like paranormal visions.
It isn't a horror adventure, either.

 

[GHOSTMD]

thank god cyberpunk isnt just another gta clone.
the wanted system is a essential gameplay mechanic in gta because half of the quests involve the player committing a crime and being chased by the police afterwards.
the story & characters arent particulary interesting so players usually get bored and go on a rampage.
this has been the case for every gta title since 1997 with only one notable exception.

there is only one quest in cp2077 that would benefit from such a system.
spending time and resources on such a nieche feature would be insanity.

as a result, going on a rampage isnt fun in cyberpunk. but thats fine by me.
cdpr should stick to what they do best and leave the rampage shooters to other developers who have been doing this for decades

Yet, i do claim, Cyberpunk 2077 NEEDs some serious pinches of GTA SA interaction with Night City, which
looks awesome and shows us all that dirty stuff from the setting but has no depth to it. That is what is exactly
missing. Buying animations, minigames, nightlife you name it. It was in there at one point, or at least planned,
the game suffers heavy from those cuts. As i said above only a rework patch can change that.
But who knows, if CDPR cares enough at this point.... not the devs, the ones calling the shots.

 

[CS554]

I haven't played GTA V and I don't have any intention to do so. I played series from the first one and at GTA IV, despite great driving physics, it simply wasn't interesting game.

GTA and police chases. If people want good chases why even drag that along? NFS: Heat wanted system and chases were far more intense than anything I ever experienced in any GTA. With police drones available in Cyberpunk they could be even more so. We even have roots in game for far better physics than simplified stuff in GTA so why not go there?

I still don't get why people want to play this game for cops and robbers, but if this is would be implemented why do it in a way that is mediocre to begin with?

 

[trashpunk69]

thank god cyberpunk isnt just another gta clone.
the wanted system is a essential gameplay mechanic in gta because half of the quests involve the player committing a crime and being chased by the police afterwards.

Thank god, finally someone reveals the truth. Cyberpunk isnt just another GTA clone, or just another game or a game in a traditional sense.
The wanted system is essentially a broken game mechanic because its not like how I usually see it in movies or in real life. Half of the missions involve the player running around doing things and interacting. Its borderline insanity.

the story & characters arent particulary interesting so players usually get bored and go on a rampage.
this has been the case for every gta title since 1997 with only one notable exception.

Tell me about it, right? The story & characters arent even slightly believable, some generic random characters and an endless loop of "Go here, do that, and then that, so you get that and unlock this" , who wouldnt get bored. This has been the case even way before GTA, it was when Rockstar Games was born. Those frauds.

there is only one quest in cp2077 that would benefit from such a system.
spending time and resources on such a nieche feature would be insanity.

Exactly. Thats why I applaud CDR for not going the fraud path. Instead of focusing on all the things that people get bored with anyway, they went and focused on what we actually really care about. Lots of technical novelties, colors, music, mouse-support... I also love the merchandise. Good old cardonbox-Keanu looking at me from the corner right now.

as a result, going on a rampage isnt fun in cyberpunk. but thats fine by me.
cdpr should stick to what they do best and leave the rampage shooters to other developers who have been doing this for decades

As a result trying to play it like a GTA game, a Rockstar game or one of these boring "backward-minded" modern AAA titltes, isnt fun, but thats also fine by me. This isnt why I waited all those years. I wanted to be blown away, and boy oh boy, I have been.
CDPR should stick to what they do best and the leave the games to other developers who have been doing this for decades. I mean the boring regular games, they should continue pushing the the technical avantgarde bounderies even further. I hope the next hot fix will enable an option to make the whole city transparent.

 

[RaptorIM]

Thats right. Perhaps even more. Its like Titanic or a Dali painting. Its breathtaking.



Yes, many call it the most disastrous launch ever while there are reports of some apparently laughing so hard that it got them to the emergency room.

"When someone talks crap about stuff, it means he/she/transgender is very bored, its up to you to wait for the chargeback deadline to pass or not" My dogs quote.


Spot on, Albert, spot on. All the eyes are on them and there will be also lots more media inside and around the court house.
I believe you are onto something here - It could very well change the universe beyond the gaming world. While it might not yet have reached Lego City legendary cult status, it sure is on its way. Its everywhere. Even my local shop has it on sale already (PS4 Version is already a collectors item).



Im sure your support is more than welcome. Ever thought of spreading the joy inside all your family and friends circle? There is an awesome online mode. If you could recommend or force them to buy a copy each, we all cyberpunk fans together can keep the community going.

On the other hand, your unwarranted critic and demand for rework is something I cant fully comprehend. I believe they are the greatest game studio ever. They are trending everywhere. Most likely no other game they make, maybe never again, will have such impact and legal attention as they got with this one. They have reached already nearly 70% of positive opinion on google.

I wish you all the fun you can have with this gem. People claim there isnt even a functioning AI but thats fake news, because after studying it in detail, I have come to the conclusion that most likely Keanus brain was scanned and uploaded. What you see is him in many ways. Its so advanced.

Anyway, im waiting for Hot-Fix patch 43.14 - and hope they will add music to the crash screen.

Not sure if serious, or perfectly played sarcasm. Kudos to you, kind sir. Or pooch.

 

[the_ktt]

Fakeness of this "demo" comes from it not being one. This wasn't the playable with full-on mechanics demo.

What? The article posted by @gregski the demo of the game, "vertical slice" or the "first playable", no matter how you call it, must show actual systems and features in the work, not just being a facade that looks nice but isn't playable.

No, if this "demo" wasn't really playable, which was the case if what former CDP/CDPR employees said was true, then it wasn't a demo. Demo needs to be playable, needs to have features implemented. Without it, it's just a presentation of visuals, textures, models - a proof of concept of how the game might look visually, but not how it will play.

They called it a Demo,

English meaning of demo:

"A demo is a demonstration in which someone shows you how to do something or how it works."

It's quite a broad word actually, even in games only it varies a lot.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_demo

Some devs even create a content just for demo, like Jagged alliance 2 Demo, it was playing out on a level that didn't exist in final game, or existed but contained only like 20% of what the initial demo content. Some other examples on Wikipedia.

Calling any of those as fake is misconception of the whole idea of being a demo, trailer or a pilot.

Either way I think we are getting off topic and are focusing too much on meaning of words.