Concealment Ratings

[Weaselwolf]

*blink*

Okay, political rant about gun rights aside, gun rights in CP2020 are pretty liberal - cops don't care and most everyone in Night City carries. I'd have to look up what the UCJC says in the book, but it's irrelevant - cops are only likely to prosecute if you -aren't - carrying when you should be.

Actually, Sard if you'd read it instead of blinking you'd see we WERE talking about the UCJC. I gave references and Chris quoted the whole damned section. ;-)

Seriously, did you actually read it or just skim it and assume it was something else?
There was no gun rights debate whatsoever.

And no, there is absolutely no law saying you MUST carry a gun and cops will not prosecute you for not carrying. That's nonsense. however common gun ownership in CP is, it's not mandatory.

We weren't even debating gun rights, we were discussing the gun laws as laid out in cyberpunk.

No lawyer is likely to take on a case in 2020 of a suspect who was carrying a firearm concealed without the proper permits. Lawyers are pretty touch and go in 2020, post Lawyer Riot. UCJC is..efficient.

Here are the laws as they apply to guns in cyberpunk.
Gun permit (with background check) is required to own handguns, longarms and knives over 18"
Concealed carry permit is required to carry concealed. That requires another fee and check per gun.
Your gun is registered and its ballistic pattern is on file with the government.
Automatic weapons are illegal.

This is what we're actually talking about in this thread.
Chris mistakenly said that was *more* loose than current laws.
I was educating him as to the state of current gun laws and how the laws in cyberpunk are *more* strict rather than less so.

Gun rights has nothing to do with it. We're discussing the facts of the laws as they exist in the game and reality, not as they should or should not exist. At no point were we debating what SHOULD be the state of things.
I never said the laws in cyberpunk shouldn't exist or should be different, at no point did I ever disagree with them.
I merely proved Chris wrong in his statement that they are somehow less restrictive than the laws today.

NRA is a non-entity in Cyberpunk 2020 as I recall. Corps run things now, not politicians. Your Constitutional Rights are regularly violated by Arasaka. Oops!

Your 2020 may vary, but hey, go nuts with that. It's your dark (?) future. You wanna pretend Civil Liberties and Gun Rights and Due Process exist in a corporate-run world, have fun with that.

LMFAO oh my god...do you even know what a lobbying group is?
The NRA may once have been a civil rights group looking out for citizens when it was begun, but as it exists today the NRA is a corporate lobbying group that isn't fighting for civil liberties of citizens, they're fighting against anything that hurts their clients...which are the gun manufacturers.

Giving more rights to citizens is a complete side effect of ensuring that their corporate masters can sell more guns.

If anything, the corporate environment of cyberpunk would make corporate-lobby groups MORE powerful.

If Militech says "That gun law will hurt our sales and shouldn't pass." the government won't pass it. Why? Because Militech can then withhold its security services, jack its prices or do anything else it wants to cripple the US government thanks to their disproportionate level of power and influence.

Honestly, can you imagine any situation where gun companies in cyberpunk WOULDN'T be writing the gun laws?
Corporations literally write the laws in Cyberpunk.
The major Arms companies (Militech and Arasaka) are the most powerful companies in the world.
Please, tell me how in the world they do not write the laws for how weapons are regulated.

You even imply that it's somehow NOT dark for gun companies to be in charge of gun legislation? That's crazy man. Gun companies don;t care about civil rights, but they do care about sales. If the law says you can own rocket launchers, suddenly they;re selling more rocket launchers. That's all they care about.

Honestly, if the corporations really ran everything the way people say they should, then every weapon would be legal and carrying a gun WOULD be mandatory.

Clearly the cyberpunk that exists in the books is a much more light and optimistic setting than people think.

But that's sort of besides the point.

Honestly, I don't even know why you're on the subject of gun rights since it was never a part of the discussion we were having, but if you want to bring up the NRA, in the corporate owned future, the NRA would be insanely powerful.

Maybe this should be split off into a second thread?

 

[fuzzytroll]

I just want to know where it says the NRA was disbanded and where the fuck gun vending machines were listed.

 

[wisdom000]

The NRA.... PETA for gun rights... annoying asshats that make you hate them even if you are sympathetic to the idea of gun ownership rights...

 

[fuzzytroll]

The NRA.... PETA for gun rights... annoying asshats that make you hate them even if you are sympathetic to the idea of gun ownership rights...

Amen.
I remember when they did certifications and taught proper gun safety. Some of the best tutorials for stripping down older model firearms were done by them, and their safety and defensive firing courses were top notch. Most of that's been suspended to put lobbying for the gun companies that pay them to the forefront of their activities.

 

[Weaselwolf]

That's the thing, I'm a really liberal guy, and to me the NRA is just a big evil corporate lobbying group, and the idea of them writing the laws IS terrifying and dark and gritty.
The main reason I have a gun is because if all the rightwing assholes get one and keep talking about uprisings and secession, then i sure as fuck need a gun.
Also, for shooting people who want to steal my computer.

But seriously, this thead isn't supposed to be about this. Does anyone have any suggestions for concealed weapon rules?

 

[Sardukhar]

Ahh..Gal. My response was to Troll, actually, discussing the NRA in 2020 and a brief overlook as to why most of this debate about the UCJC is, in my games, pretty redundant.

I am aware of what a lobbying group is, yes. Although corps are powerful in 2020, they are not, yet, all powerful. Laws still hold occasional sway and not all of them are written by Militech. That's the universe of SLA Industries.


One refinement you might employ is having movement and damage affect the A/N roll to spot a concealed weapon.Pretty hard to conceal a .44 Automag on your belt if your trench is shot to shite and you are sprinting towards cover. Even harder for an SMG. I like the usual +1 to+3 on A/N for these values.

Having a techie rig a conceal for a weapon depends on degree of conceal and size of weapon. Starting at 10, V. easy for hiding a .38 in a novel and going up to 30 for hiding an AntiMatter Rifle - convincingly - in a golfcart well enough to pass a thorough check.

Also - probably best not to "educate" people too much. They take it poorly, especially when you explain that's what you were doing.

 

[fuzzytroll]

Wow, and here I just thought you were a retard.

 

[Sardukhar]

*blink*.

Not so much, no.

 

[fuzzytroll]

Well it was a job well done, I was convinced you were a total blithering idiot.

 

[Weaselwolf]

Ahh..Gal. My response was to Troll, actually, discussing the NRA in 2020 and a brief overlook as to why most of this debate about the UCJC is, in my games, pretty redundant.

Well, you sure fooled me. I thought you had merely skimmed the thread, saw the word NRA and assumed it was a lengthy gun rights debate. Well, you got me, buddy, good troll! Awesome of you to waste everyone's time. Is there a thumbs up smiley? No? Oh well.

These do bear on concealed weapon rules, of course, since concealment from Corporate Security is one thing, concealed carry for the purposes of law is another.

One refinement you might employ is having movement and damage affect the A/N roll to spot a concealed weapon.Pretty hard to conceal a .44 Automag on your belt if your trench is shot to shite and you are sprinting towards cover. Even harder for an SMG. I like the usual +1 to+3 on A/N for these values.

I did state that if you want to conceal a jacket under a garment said garment needs to be closed. Leaving your long coat open to the breeze is cool and all, but you're taking -5 off the A/N Diff to spot your gun for not being properly concealed. If your jacket is so shot up you can see through it then you've got worse problems.

Running would be kind of a wash. On the one hand it might make your garment ride up or flap (if not properly closed) but at the same time, picking out fine details on a fast moving target is hard.

Having a techie rig a conceal for a weapon depends on degree of conceal and size of weapon. Starting at 10, V. easy for hiding a .38 in a novel and going up to 30 for hiding an AntiMatter Rifle - convincingly - in a golfcart well enough to pass a thorough check.

Interesting. Our team's sniper carries his sniper rifle around in a Cello case. He also wears a suit and works for the mob, so everyone (especially the Ref) agrees it's cute and thus it works ;-)

Coming up with custom built devices to hide guns is interesting but might be a bit of a divergence if I'm trying to pair things down

Also - probably best not to "educate" people too much. They take it poorly, especially when you explain that's what you were doing.

But it's a valuable public service. If I don't tell them that they're wrong, and outline in excruciating detail all the ways in which they are wrong they'll just go round...not knowing! That's horrifying. Or worse, they might say something wrong and someone else might actually think it's right <shudder>
I know this is a game about dark and dystopian themes, but some things are just too horrifying.

Besides, what else would Chris and I have to talk about then? ;-P (Just kidding, Chris)

 

[Sardukhar]

"Troll". Short for Fuzzytroll. To whom I was responding. Anyway.

Yeah, it's less a custom-built-devices rule suite than an alternate, "how to conceal your guns regardless of rating" suggestion. References the idea that weapon Concealment Ratings can be a variable as opposed to a fixed value. Similar to your ruling on closed vs open jackets.

 

[Weaselwolf]

"Troll". Short for Fuzzytroll. To whom I was responding. Anyway.

Ohhhh, whoops.
I suggest we nickname him Fuzzy instead to avoid confusion

Yeah, it's less a custom-built-devices rule suite than an alternate, "how to conceal your guns regardless of rating" suggestion. References the idea that weapon Concealment Ratings can be a variable as opposed to a fixed value. Similar to your ruling on closed vs open jackets.

It's definately something to consider. I've seem some pretty creative gun hiders.

 

[fuzzytroll]

"Troll". Short for Fuzzytroll. To whom I was responding. Anyway.

Yeah, it's less a custom-built-devices rule suite than an alternate, "how to conceal your guns regardless of rating" suggestion. References the idea that weapon Concealment Ratings can be a variable as opposed to a fixed value. Similar to your ruling on closed vs open jackets.

Oooh, see I got confused on that too. I thought you meant you were trolling, hence my previous comments. This is actually why I go by Fuzzytroll now, because it can be shortened to Fuzzy which is less confusing for people calling me out.
Of course if you weren't trolling...

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah, I thought about Fuzzy, but a) Troll seemed cooler, b) I kinda hoped you guys noticed I capitalized it as a proper noun and c)chaos. Giggle.

Concealment. I had a character who had his sidearm attached to the lining of his coat, instead of on a holster rig. That way, when the coat opened, it was much less visible. He could also take it off and sling it over his shoulder for instant conceal, or dump it in a hurry without anyone seeing he'd been carrying.

 

[Weaselwolf]

Problem with that is like having a heavy gun in a pocket, it makes the material fall heavier on that side, it doesn't flow right and it ends up looking odd. If you see someone whose coat is falling noticeably heavier on one side, he's probably either got a gun or it;s laundry day and he has a few rolls of quarters on him

 

[fuzzytroll]

Longcoats are a mixed bag when concealing. I was at PAX Prime last year with my P-11 in a OWB holster under my leather longcoat and went almost the entire con without it being spotted. Almost. I normally walk with my arms to my side so that my coat stays in place, but then some punky twat who I collided with outside the MWO room took offense to me saying 'my bad' and walking away and shoved me towards the railing keeping people from falling 30 feet onto hard concrete and someone dressed as a Gundam. When I went to brace myself against the rail (and while he was calling me a faggot) my coat billowed open showing one of the Enforcers my rig. Him and two others came over to pacify the situation and I took the opportunity to slip out before I had to explain why I was carrying (answer= that guy). Later that day walking around outside the con center the wind blew my coat open again causing me to flash some random people.
I took it as a hint and bought the nerdiest fanny pack that could hold a gun and 3 mags.

 

[Weaselwolf]

See? Gotta keep that jacket fastened, cyberpunks.

 

[Sydanyo]

Fuzzytroll, I know the guys at Penny Arcade are a-holes, but you don't need to bring a gun to their convention, do you?

 

[fuzzytroll]

LOL, good one C. Mac. No, mostly I carry my P-11 when I am out in cities and unfamiliar areas just in case. Plus you never know in Seattle and around douchebag-gamers who seem to be way too aggressive (like shoving me towards a 30 foot fall) for their own good.

I like the edits Galahad, it does make sense that people with a feel for the streets would be able to spot trouble more easily then others. Honestly I would allow Streetwise to be added to awareness rolls to one degree or another for anything involving the street game such as spotting and identifying drug pushers and their product, as well as spotting the simple kind of ambushes bangers tend to pull on the unaware.

 

[Weaselwolf]

As Fuzzy has noted, I've gone through and edited my first three posts, PLEASE go back and re-read them and let me know what you think.

Summary of changes:
I simplified Drawing from Concealment. It's now a flat -3 Init that can be brought to -0 if you Fast Draw. No complicated business about custom grips and speed holsters.
Also, even though picket guns are a little easier to get at, I lumped them in with other concealed guns. -3 init.

I lumped Troublemakers and Observers into the same category for spotting concealed. I realized there's no real reason to give people with better chance of spotting a lower Diff as well. I just wanted to point out that people who don't deal with weapons or the street daily are going to have a very hard time spotting properly concealed guns.
Cops, Nomads and Fixers add HALF their Special Ability to Awareness to spot concealed weapons. ANYONE with Streetwise also adds half their Streetwise to spot concealed weapons. Only seemed fair.

I boosted Jackets to be able to conceal two J-conc weapons without penalty rather than one.

I explained pocket guns a bit better.

I removed Concealed Speed Holsters entirely, and I changed Pocket holsters to just be normal holsters.
I DO believe a pocket holster aids in concealment, but not enough to justify extra rules.

I kept concealed standard and shoulder holsters though, because I felt with just those two it wouldn't complicate things overmuch.

I cleaned up the summary of modifiers a bit.

I altered the Legal section to be more in line with the UCCJ (Thanks, Chris!) and explained some things a bit better to prevent more unfortunate misunderstandings.

Wha'cha think?