Controversial Opinion: You shouldn't pick things up

[CS554]

I'm not saying that the loot system is perfect, that it couldn't be improved. Besides, I doubt that the "perfect system" will ever exist because there will always be something that will not please someone.

But the "good" point in Cyberpunk is that it is possible to ignore it altogether if you want to without any issues nor game limitations (except the loot icons in the HUD). Anyway, the best weapons/equipment in the game are aquired other than in the random loot itself (quest reward or on bosses in some area). And shops are there for those who don't want spend time to loot/dismantle stuff.

My point is that it make no sense to me to say the game would be better without a loot system. Each player have is own preferences and definitions on what is "better". So the "best/safe" way is to make a system that is possible to ignore for those who want.
In the same way as:
- The game would be better without the character creator. V have character presets, so you can ignore it if you want.
- The game would be better without an open world. I've just finished Greedfall, and I'm sorry, but navigate between small maps with fast travel, it's not really for me. I don't have the "sensation" of liberty that I have in an open world (where I can go wherever I want).

If someone is not interested by loots and find it boring, but nevertheless because there are icons and that he can pick it up, he do it. And he complain after 'cause managing his inventory is annoying... I don't know what to say, it's a lost cause

Maybe you are talking past each other?

What @lefouduroi.pr wrote earlier here. It's about in-game economy and transparency of that economy for player and like my example with my Corpo V who wasn't that crafting build I post earlier about. It's not that player can't skip certain things, it's about that player has no sure way of knowing they can but after completing the game / challenge in game.

Overall your view about possibilities in game and that there won't be a single thing that will work for everybody is what I have been saying too. @SigilFey brings up important factors regarding story aspects and examples from history of games and presents more than himself too.

There are outlying cases, like your example of silenced assault rifle and headshots and how that can't possibly be achieved without crafting. Mine is LMG that I took 20+ minutes to upgrade running to shops for components after running out, giving up with upgrading that and just buying legendary one when it happened in weapon dealer inventory, only to notice during (Don't Fear) the Reaper that I didn't actually needed it.

I think it's quite low percentage of people who get into game like we do and write about it. But it enables us, like lefouduroi.pr wrote, reveal things regarding how its economy work. You have your eyes on other things than economy, you understand what game is about and like that. It's more a matter of what kind of experience it's for audience in general.

People tend to be goal oriented, complete the story (which many did, it's outstanding) that's part of our nature. But with something like CP 2077 there are things you miss if you run to loot to loot and perform like that. It's things that I have wrote before, cruising in City Center and looking at that world, world past identity politics, yet it's a hellhole. We need to think society as whole and via this we can, we being factory worker, nurse, office worker who knows that his white collar job has been made blue collar for all practical purposes, even though he can still wear a white shirt, there's window of opportunity. Does inflation care about identity politics? Does global environmental issues? and as there is more to life, it's important to be able to share this. I can use this. Funny how Outer Worlds also covers this, though their method is different.

It's not about how people should play the game, it's about window of opportunity for everyone and current system may actually mislead people to find a guide. I need Tech and loot and they run after that and miss what that there's more to this game.

I don't think angle here is at all that you are playing the game wrong but that other ways to play to game can get buried and that we are just wired differently. We have talked about Cyber Ninja builds and that and the thing there is, that this sort of things can enable sort of realization of dream without taking casual so deep into meta gaming aspects, that they miss the story.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

People tend to be goal oriented, complete the story (which many did, it's outstanding) that's part of our nature. But with something like CP 2077 there are things you miss if you run to loot to loot and perform like that. It's things that I have wrote before, cruising in City Center and looking at that world, world past identity politics, yet it's a hellhole. We need to think society as whole and via this we can, we being factory worker, nurse, office worker who knows that his white collar job has been made blue collar for all practical purposes, even though he can still wear a white shirt, there's window of opportunity. Does inflation care about identity politics? Does global environmental issues? and as there is more to life, it's important to be able to share this. I can use this. Funny how Outer Worlds also covers this, though their method is different.

It's only my point of view, but "limiting/modifying/removing the loots because it distracts the players", seems to me to be a very weird idea
A little bit like if you say : "players are not enough "smart" to focus on the important "things", so we'll remove everything who can distract them".
If players prefer to look on the ground for loots than "somewhere else" where there is probably something more interesting, it doesn't matter, everyone does what they want... Like with CP "cinematics", if a player prefers to look elsewhere (or go looting) while an NPC is talking and saying something maybe important to understand the story, it doesn't matter, every one is "free".

 

[That_Revenant_Guy]

I don't agree at all.
You do you though.

 

[lefouduroi.pr]

I'm not saying that the loot system is perfect, that it couldn't be improved. Besides, I doubt that the "perfect system" will ever exist because there will always be something that will not please someone.

But the "good" point in Cyberpunk is that it is possible to ignore it altogether if you want to without any issues nor game limitations (except the loot icons in the HUD). Anyway, the best weapons/equipment in the game are aquired other than in the random loot itself (quest reward or on bosses in some area). And shops are there for those who don't want spend time to loot/dismantle stuff.

My point is that it make no sense to me to say the game would be better without a loot system. Each player have is own preferences and definitions on what is "better". So the "best/safe" way is to make a system that is possible to ignore for those who want.
In the same way as:
- The game would be better without the character creator. V have character presets, so you can ignore it if you want.
- The game would be better without an open world. I've just finished Greedfall, and I'm sorry, but navigate between small maps with fast travel, it's not really for me. I don't have the "sensation" of liberty that I have in an open world (where I can go wherever I want).

If someone is not interested by loots and find it boring, but nevertheless because there are icons and that he can pick it up, he do it. And he complain after 'cause managing his inventory is annoying... I don't know what to say, it's a lost cause

You did not get the point. It's about how you implement it and the fact that asking players to potentially "ignore" a system if they don't like it is missing the target.

It is the devs job to make those systems relevant and engaging.

Again, players will suck the fun of the games they play, when given the opportunity, more often than not. This is just a fact and devs know it.

It is not a "lost cause", it is the devs duty to make sure to prevent that. It is literally part of their jobs.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

It is the devs job to make those systems relevant and engaging.

If someone find the looting system (in general whatever the game) annoying/bad/useless/whatever and the game would be better without it, Devs can't make it "revelant & engaging" for those players... there is no way. So "lost cause".

 

[lefouduroi.pr]

It's only my point of view, but "limiting/modifying/removing the loots because it distracts the players", seems to me to be a very weird idea
A little bit like if you say : "players are not enough "smart" to focus on the important "things", so we'll remove everything who can distract them".
If players prefer to look on the ground for loots than "somewhere else" where there is probably something more interesting, it doesn't matter, everyone does what they want... Like with CP "cinematics", if a player prefers to look elsewhere (or go looting) while an NPC is talking and saying something maybe important to understand the story, it doesn't matter, every one is "free".

This. This is what you don't fully grasp I believe. Game development is all about this: directing the player's focus.

It is not about being smart at all. Nothing to do with it. Quite the opposite. The smart thing in this case, at the beginning of CP2077, since the economy is unknown to the player because of system failures, is to loot every single thing, distracting the player since it can be avoided altogether to beat the game.

Having the hud flashing like a Christmas three only reinforce this belief, that the player should loot everything.

That is the definition of a feature that is not well implemented.

There is plenty of good game makers/devs channels on Youtube, I am sure that you can find those who deconstruct video games from the devs point of view (Game maker's toolkit is only one of the many). Those are not to bash about the games, but to dive deeper into the role of developers.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2022

If someone find the looting system (in general whatever the game) annoying/bad/useless/whatever and the game would be better without it, Devs can't make it "revelant & engaging" for those players... there is no way. So "lost cause".

Simply not true. Why being so stuck in this mentality?

Watch docs about game making. It is literally their job to make every system they introduce into their games meaningful, engaging and relevant within the game, and also state how relevant those systems are.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Simply not true. Why being so stuck in this mentality?

Watch docs about game making. It is literally their job to make every system they introduce into their games meaningful, engaging and relevant within the game, and also state how relevant those systems are.

Why ?
Because our discution prove it
- Some players (me include) prefer when there are loots randomly, everywhere (junk include) and when the inventory management is a big part (to avoid a big mess) like DOS2, GreedFall or Cyberpunk (maybe Bethesda games).
- Other would prefer when the loot is a little more "focused/quality/reward" (like maybe DE-MD or Dishonored).
- And other would prefer when there is no loot or almost (like GTA/RDR2).
Make a system for everyone is impossible because matter of tastes...

I agree that in Cyberpunk, it could be improve (like the HUD icons), but about the subject "You shouldn't pick things up", nope because I pick things up, I enjoy it, I find it useful and it don't "distract" me at all.
I like to be "free" to focus myself on what I want
(I for that I quote the cinematics in Cyberpunk, because I'm generally free to look or move where I want, at risk to miss something important...)

 

[CS554]

This. This is what you don't fully grasp I believe. Game development is all about this: directing the player's focus.

It is not about being smart at all. Nothing to do with it. Quite the opposite. The smart thing in this case, at the beginning of CP2077, since the economy is unknown to the player because of system failures, is to loot every single thing, distracting the player since it can be avoided altogether to beat the game.

Having the hud flashing like a Christmas three only reinforce this belief, that the player should loot everything.

That is the definition of a feature that is not well implemented.

What you wrote earlier about how players can and will take away fun from playing the game, for me relevant example could be something that was discussed and wished feature for CP 2077 was more apartments V could buy.

To make coarse example of that, say CDPR chose to bring this in future DLC, what would that mean to game economy and player experience? What is going to happen isn't one but two things:

Existing players whom such features are important will be content (more or less) but they may have not thought:

• That those eddies to buy that new apartment, those eddies has to come from somewhere, which means more looting and using Crafting builds to craft items to create items that sell for higher price than items that player can found just by looting items.
• Existing players may be familiar with some NCDP missions, those marked with a star on map, which respawn and grind them to further boost economy.

That may work less or more players whom had completed the story and just look something to do in CP 2077.

New players who come to game with features brought by DLC encounter different scenario than players who played game first without DLC

• There are more goals and they may think, oh that this is that sort of game and invest their time buying that in-game apartment and that may cause their experience with game to be: CP 2077 is about grinding everything you possible can and collecting bottles to buy apartment, cars, etc. because their focus been distracted to that.

It's easy to blame players from such things, but it's studio responsibility to call the shots and decide what their game is about. Industry practice to cater certain kind of feedback is convenient. Adding apartment, cosmetics and such doesn't require much work with storyline or game balance as they don't interfere by those things to begin with. Much more could be said, but I don't think that would serve purpose of this topic at least for now, but it's worth to note that there some studios do solve problems, sometimes not implementing something, even if request for feature can pop up time to time and community by large, is understood even though discussing about said feature could be awkward. Wrote about it months ago: CP 2077 and the Gas station problem


That's my way of communicating. I don't participate for discussion about in-game apartments and that even I don't see feature like that adding anything to my experience and see them perhaps even problematic. It's CDPR's call what they do with feedback.

I do participate some discussions when existing feature could be enhance and add something to game, say bikes in game discussed here: Request to re-evaluate all motorcycles roll lean angles

Key difference is that game doesn't need to have more bikes for player to buy and steal their focus to collect more bottles. There's the Beast story in CP 2077, they could perhaps add something similar story content: My break down of Beat the Brat and The Beast: What can ne learned from the Beast and Beat the Brat

There's economy to everything. Thinking of very different kind of scenario we have in game: The Sinnerman.

Sinnerman for me is like several stories in one and like HBO on a video game. It also happens to be quite long what comes to completing it entirely. There's also that there's no loot, there's not much eddies for completing it and there's no game play that contributes towards player character skills. So if player replays game Sinnerman can actually also be completed by killing Joshua Stephenson for few thousand eddies is important feature for casual like me. That is to say, that CDPR can anticipate and offer solutions by offering such solution so players, I mean most people out there don't have infinite time budget for games, don't come to sabotage their own experience with game.

I do hope CDPR would look economics of their game and how to make it more transparent. I guess upcoming DLC might give hints of direction, if it's more virtual junk for people to buy and spend their time on, or if it's going to be something else.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2022

I agree that in Cyberpunk, it could be improve (like the HUD icons), but about the subject "You shouldn't pick things up", nope because I pick things up, I enjoy it, I find it useful and it don't "distract" me at all.
I like to be "free" to focus myself on what I want
(I for that I quote the cinematics in Cyberpunk, because I'm generally free to look or move where I want, at risk to miss something important...)

What @lefouduroi.pr and me are saying, is that while poll is about Yes/No our view to subject isn't binary solution.

 

[lefouduroi.pr]

Why ?
Because our discution prove it
- Some players (me include) prefer when there are loots randomly, everywhere (junk include) and when the inventory management is a big part (to avoid a big mess) like DOS2, GreedFall or Cyberpunk (maybe Bethesda games).
- Other would prefer when the loot is a little more "focused/quality/reward" (like maybe DE-MD or Dishonored).
- And other would prefer when there is no loot or almost (like GTA/RDR2).
Make a system for everyone is impossible because matter of tastes...

I agree that in Cyberpunk, it could be improve (like the HUD icons), but about the subject "You shouldn't pick things up", nope because I pick things up, I enjoy it, I find it useful and it don't "distract" me at all.
I like to be "free" to focus myself on what I want
(I for that I quote the cinematics in Cyberpunk, because I'm generally free to look or move where I want, at risk to miss something important...)

I am not talking about if you should or should not pick things up. I know that that's the OP, but now most of us are talking about the looting system implementation.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2022

What you wrote earlier about how players can and will take away fun from playing the game, for me relevant example could be something that was discussed and wished feature for CP 2077 was more apartments V could buy.

To make coarse example of that, say CDPR chose to bring this in future DLC, what would that mean to game economy and player experience? What is going to happen isn't one but two things:

Existing players whom such features are important will be content (more or less) but they may have not thought:

• That those eddies to buy that new apartment, those eddies has to come from somewhere, which means more looting and using Crafting builds to craft items to create items that sell for higher price than items that player can found just by looting items.
• Existing players may be familiar with some NCDP missions, those marked with a star on map, which respawn and grind them to further boost economy.

That may work less or more players whom had completed the story and just look something to do in CP 2077.

New players who come to game with features brought by DLC encounter different scenario than players who played game first without DLC

• There are more goals and they may think, oh that this is that sort of game and invest their time buying that in-game apartment and that may cause their experience with game to be: CP 2077 is about grinding everything you possible can and collecting bottles to buy apartment, cars, etc. because their focus been distracted to that.

It's easy to blame players from such things, but it's studio responsibility to call the shots and decide what their game is about. Industry practice to cater certain kind of feedback is convenient. Adding apartment, cosmetics and such doesn't require much work with storyline or game balance as they don't interfere by those things to begin with. Much more could be said, but I don't think that would serve purpose of this topic at least for now, but it's worth to note that there some studios do solve problems, sometimes not implementing something, even if request for feature can pop up time to time and community by large, is understood even though discussing about said feature could be awkward. Wrote about it months ago: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...-cp2077-and-the-gas-station-problem.11077055/


That's my way of communicating. I don't participate for discussion about in-game apartments and that even I don't see feature like that adding anything to my experience and see them perhaps even problematic. It's CDPR's call what they do with feedback.

I do participate some discussions when existing feature could be enhance and add something to game, say bikes in game discussed here: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...te-all-motorcycles-roll-lean-angles.11095780/

Key difference is that game doesn't need to have more bikes for player to buy and steal their focus to collect more bottles. There's the Beast story in CP 2077, they could perhaps add something similar story content: My break down of Beat the Brat and The Beast: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/spoilers-optional-content-what-can-be-learned-from-the-beast-and-beat-the-brat.11092039/

There's economy to everything. Thinking of very different kind of scenario we have in game: The Sinnerman.

Sinnerman for me is like several stories in one and like HBO on a video game. It also happens to be quite long what comes to completing it entirely. There's also that there's no loot, there's not much eddies for completing it and there's no game play that contributes towards player character skills. So if player replays game Sinnerman can actually also be completed by killing Joshua Stephenson for few thousand eddies is important feature for casual like me. That is to say, that CDPR can anticipate and offer solutions by offering such solution so players, I mean most people out there don't have infinite time budget for games, don't come to sabotage their own experience with game.

I do hope CDPR would look economics of their game and how to make it more transparent. I guess upcoming DLC might give hints of direction, if it's more virtual junk for people to buy and spend their time on, or if it's going to be something else.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2022

What @lefouduroi.pr and me are saying, is that while poll is about Yes/No our view to subject isn't binary solution.

Yup. What else to say.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2022

Why ?
Because our discution prove it
- Some players (me include) prefer when there are loots randomly, everywhere (junk include) and when the inventory management is a big part (to avoid a big mess) like DOS2, GreedFall or Cyberpunk (maybe Bethesda games).
- Other would prefer when the loot is a little more "focused/quality/reward" (like maybe DE-MD or Dishonored).
- And other would prefer when there is no loot or almost (like GTA/RDR2).
Make a system for everyone is impossible because matter of tastes...

I agree that in Cyberpunk, it could be improve (like the HUD icons), but about the subject "You shouldn't pick things up", nope because I pick things up, I enjoy it, I find it useful and it don't "distract" me at all.
I like to be "free" to focus myself on what I want
(I for that I quote the cinematics in Cyberpunk, because I'm generally free to look or move where I want, at risk to miss something important...)

Basically, we are saying that sweets, for kids, should be eaten sporadically and introduced to a well-balanced diet. Parents should ensure that this is how they are consumed.

You are saying that you like cookies, some others don't.

We are not having the same conversation.

 

[SigilFey]

I am not talking about if you should or should not pick things up. I know that that's the OP, but now most of us are talking about the looting system implementation.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2022

Yup. What else to say.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2022

Basically, we are saying that sweets, for kids, should be eaten sporadically and introduced to a well-balanced diet. Parents should ensure that this is how they are consumed.

You are saying that you like cookies, some others don't.

We are not having the same conversation.

You need to get away from the personal judgments here. Everyone's views are their views. They are not superior to anyone else's, and no one is required to understand things the way we would prefer. It's an opinion: nothing more, and nothing less. Please, ensure you're focusing on the topic and the arguments -- not what other people should be thinking or feeling.

_______________


And that being said, I still hold similar opinion. I have no trouble ignoring all the "Christmas lights", as you put it, and simply focusing on mission objectives or emotional motivations to move forward. But I still feel that those things can be a distraction. For me, it's not a gamebreaker or anything, but a part that I feel is a bit off the beat. Again, it's down to the focus of a given game.

Borderlands or Destiny: I want lots of loot, crafting options, etc.

An open world sandbox like Mount and Blade or State of Decay: more loot, crafting options, and stuff to scavenge, please!

A narratively driven RPG like Cyberpunk or Mass Effect: I'd rather keep the focus on the story and action. Too much looter stuff breaks the focus and pacing. I'd rather leave it for sandbox titles.

This isn't necessarily that they don't add immersion, variety, or additional gameplay that some may really enjoy, just that they come at the expense of maintaining focus and flow on the strongly central narrative.

I agree that in Cyberpunk, it could be improve (like the HUD icons), but about the subject "You shouldn't pick things up", nope because I pick things up, I enjoy it, I find it useful and it don't "distract" me at all.
I like to be "free" to focus myself on what I want
(I for that I quote the cinematics in Cyberpunk, because I'm generally free to look or move where I want, at risk to miss something important...)

I'd still like the HUD to be invisible unless called for. A key to press that toggles it on while held, or one that activates it for ~10-15 seconds before slowly fading out again, would be great. I'd love to play with no HUD at all for the most part. And it would certainly lessen the distraction part of the loot.

It's easy to blame players from such things, but it's studio responsibility to call the shots and decide what their game is about. Industry practice to cater certain kind of feedback is convenient. Adding apartment, cosmetics and such doesn't require much work with storyline or game balance as they don't interfere by those things to begin with. Much more could be said, but I don't think that would serve purpose of this topic at least for now, but it's worth to note that there some studios do solve problems, sometimes not implementing something, even if request for feature can pop up time to time and community by large, is understood even though discussing about said feature could be awkward. Wrote about it months ago: CP 2077 and the Gas station problem

Here's a solid truth about any sort of creative work, definitely.

Something as huge as CP2077 is going to wind up with various teams independently building their part with all of the creative oomph of every other team involved. The trick is having leadership with their fingers in every pie, so to speak. Obviously, no team wants to be micromanaged, but at the same time, it's always critical for there to be a few people that clearly see the end vision and can impart that to others. It's also vital that someone can make a final call when needed, quickly and cleanly. Without that sort of structure, creative ventures tend to wander off in weird, oblique directions. Even if the individual ideas are great, in and of themselves, that doesn't always mean that they come together in a way that will work fluently.

 

[lefouduroi.pr]

You need to get away from the personal judgments here. Everyone's views are their views. They are not superior to anyone else's, and no one is required to understand things the way we would prefer. It's an opinion: nothing more, and nothing less. Please, ensure you're focusing on the topic and the arguments -- not what other people should be thinking or feeling.

_______________


And that being said, I still hold similar opinion. I have no trouble ignoring all the "Christmas lights", as you put it, and simply focusing on mission objectives or emotional motivations to move forward. But I still feel that those things can be a distraction. For me, it's not a gamebreaker or anything, but a part that I feel is a bit off the beat. Again, it's down to the focus of a given game.

Borderlands or Destiny: I want lots of loot, crafting options, etc.

An open world sandbox like Mount and Blade or State of Decay: more loot, crafting options, and stuff to scavenge, please!

A narratively driven RPG like Cyberpunk or Mass Effect: I'd rather keep the focus on the story and action. Too much looter stuff breaks the focus and pacing. I'd rather leave it for sandbox titles.

This isn't necessarily that they don't add immersion, variety, or additional gameplay that some may really enjoy, just that they come at the expense of maintaining focus and flow on the strongly central narrative.


I'd still like the HUD to be invisible unless called for. A key to press that toggles it on while held, or one that activates it for ~10-15 seconds before slowly fading out again, would be great. I'd love to play with no HUD at all for the most part. And it would certainly lessen the distraction part of the loot.


Here's a solid truth about any sort of creative work, definitely.

Something as huge as CP2077 is going to wind up with various teams independently building their part with all of the creative oomph of every other team involved. The trick is having leadership with their fingers in every pie, so to speak. Obviously, no team wants to be micromanaged, but at the same time, it's always critical for there to be a few people that clearly see the end vision and can impart that to others. It's also vital that someone can make a final call when needed, quickly and cleanly. Without that sort of structure, creative ventures tend to wander off in weird, oblique directions. Even if the individual ideas are great, in and of themselves, that doesn't always mean that they come together in a way that will work fluently.

Couldn't agree more. I'll just add that if they would have at least given the loot/crafting systems a bit more roots in the lore (like the gear sets in TW3, including the hunt for them, then having to have an armorer craft them and upgrade, etc...), it would be more enjoyable.

Crafting in TW3 was so much better in my opinion, since crafting specific potions and oils before an encounter was deeply rooted in the gameplay.

Of course, having so many monsters to fight against is a great opportunity for that, but perhaps they could have found something to work with in CP2077. It's their jobs to use creativity and bake those systems into the lore and gameplay.

 

[CS554]

I was thinking what makes good gaming experience, what makes something rewarding in context of topic. I came up with different groups though I have difficulty to gauge if I could account all groups. There is more or less overlap between different aspects of what players feel rewarding and contents of table below could be imagined (visualized) as a word cloud with different things being more highlighted than others for different players. Order of columns isn't presentative of how big each group is or group importance. Game enables number of ways for players to approach it, that's all there is.

	Story	Roleplaying	Action / Looter shooter	Just something to do
Story and setting engages as it's relevant to matters that player has inherit interest for personal, social (family) professional, or other reason (games aren't hobby but game may cover a subject that in such detail that it enables something that is relevant for someone who is studying social-economic theories for example).	Story engages as it's exiting, world can be perceived as plausible, fantastic or surreal but it drives escapism. In game items can help player connect their characters better to the world even if there's no reactivity for quality of clothes and may like to keep certain kind of drinks in character inventory because character likes them, etc.	There's no consensus about what it is, but: For character statistics and in-game items loot / crafting are both part of in-game system	Visual appeal, gun / weapon play, in-game items, special rewards (unique weapons, clothing), use of in-items (crafting) to access better items is rewarding and enables more rewarding action, exploration can reward more unique items or items that can be used in in-game economy to get access to higher level items.	Any combination of contents from previous columns
		Rewards
Discovery via learning about in-game world via NPC's, text items, perception (how different districts look, what they tell about quality of life in there?) Interconnecting pieces of information (for example Biotechnica / Joanne Koch) as they also build world further (what kind of megacorp Biotech is, what are megacorps in world of CP 2077) Discovery leads to reward which is an idea, realization etc.	Think this might be pretty much like in left column.	?	Sum of what is above cell + possibly left columns.	Any combination of contents from previous columns

So while names on columns may not be that accurate, I find it difficult to separate story and roleplaying but I don't want to make this about what is what. Table in the end is about further pondering what I wrote earlier in this topic. Products like CP 2077 has to at these days meet demands from very different kind of expectations and what motivates different players.

A narratively driven RPG like Cyberpunk or Mass Effect: I'd rather keep the focus on the story and action. Too much time looting and crafting breaks the focus and pacing. I'd rather leave it for sandbox titles.

This isn't necessarily that they don't add immersion, variety, or additional gameplay that some may really enjoy, just that they come at the expense of maintaining focus and flow on the strongly central narrative.

I have been thinking a lot what @LeKill3rFou has shared in this topic and how to make system work for that playing style and how to get "it's a plastic bag" or something like that effect like it's in real life, we don't go after those. And I came to think of magic wardrobe where items would kept auto upgrading, perhaps every 10 levels or so. But then that shouldn't break the game economy in a way where players just store lot's of level 1 gear and sell them all at level 20 - 30 and become rich as that might undermine everything.

I'd still like the HUD to be invisible unless called for. A key to press that toggles it on while held, or one that activates it for ~10-15 seconds and then it slowly fades out again would be great. I'd love to play with no HUD at all for the most part. And it would certainly lessen the distraction part of the loot.

This might work. I was thinking something like show common, uncommon, rare, etc. options but I think that would be convoluted and eddies remain white. Lots of reasons for various playstyles to pick up eddies and sometimes not to.

 

[wyzman001]

So everybody says "Oh, you need to pick up every single thing you find in Cyberpunk 2077!".
But I say no! And here's why:

......
I understand your pov ...here is my 2 cents ...you should have reached a point of failure without any cyber or major up grades. on the hardest difficulty the game should have "put you in your place" at some point, easy example if I jump in the ring with Mike Tyson my will to win will mean exactly " jack squat " when he lands one of those world renown punches of his... it's too bad this game doesn't make the hardest diff truly some variation of the risk this city would be

I p/up stuff for ammo of my chosen weapon /weapons , but yeah "dumpster diving " isn't a very entertaining game activity and the lack of inherant "need" is definitely agreed upon by me to you.

 

[SigilFey]

Couldn't agree more. I'll just add that if they would have at least given the loot/crafting systems a bit more roots in the lore (like the gear sets in TW3, including the hunt for them, then having to have an armorer craft them and upgrade, etc...), it would be more enjoyable.

Crafting in TW3 was so much better in my opinion, since crafting specific potions and oils before an encounter was deeply rooted in the gameplay.

Of course, having so many monsters to fight against is a great opportunity for that, but perhaps they could have found something to work with in CP2077. It's their jobs to use creativity and bake those systems into the lore and gameplay.

That's kind of exactly it. Granted, I was very eager to see what they had created, but much like TW3, especially, most of the gear dropped was simply junk to be sold or dissembled for parts. Granted -- you don't need to do it. I didn't. I used a stun baton, Arasaka Junior's special pistol for silenced kills, and a shotgun for emergency "oops" moments the whole way through the game. But early on, I couldn't help but feel underwhelmed by the sorts of "new weapons" that kept dropping.

To me, a weapon is an extension of the character. In an RPG, it should be something that defines a character and the role they play, as much a part of them as their personality, race, or class. It also helps to create distinctive strengths and weaknesses that ensure different character "builds" are decidedly different to actually play.

I was thinking what makes good gaming experience, what makes something rewarding in context of topic. I came up with different groups though I have difficulty to gauge if I could account all groups. There is more or less overlap between different aspects of what players feel rewarding and contents of table below could be imagined (visualized) as a word cloud with different things being more highlighted than others for different players. Order of columns isn't presentative of how big each group is or group importance. Game enables number of ways for players to approach it, that's all there is.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from with this. (It may be getting a little far away from "loot" concerns, per say. But it's highlighting the why of the argument.) I think it might be cool for CDPR to take a stab at a game more like Detroit: Become Human, Life Is Strange, or Jedi: Fallen Order. Something that alleviates the need for any sort of "RPG" leveling system, and something that almost exclusively focuses on world- and character-building, choice, and consequence.

On the other hand, I'd also like to see what they could come up with if they made a game with true, sandbox gameplay. The writers could create a cool backdrop for the story, but the gameplay would be a total looter / crafter / scavenger / survival sort of thing. (And I don't see why Night City couldn't be the sandbox. There's so much to see in the game, it would be great to just dive in and "live another life" with no central plot.)

Really hone in on a specific type of game and try to perfect that one, focused thing.

I have been thinking a lot what @LeKill3rFou has shared in this topic and how to make system work for that playing style and how to get "it's a plastic bag" or something like that effect like it's in real life, we don't go after those. And I came to think of magic wardrobe where items would kept auto upgrading, perhaps every 10 levels or so. But then that shouldn't break the game economy in a way where players just store lot's of level 1 gear and sell them all at level 20 - 30 and become rich as that might undermine everything.

Agreed. And that's why, for a game that's pacing a story, introducing plastic bags that can be picked up really doesn't accomplish much besides interrupting the pacing of the story and dramatic action.

I'd really like to see a more Dark Souls approach to weapons. (Not the gameplay style or difficulty, mind, just the concept of weaponry and gear.) Everything is unique. Everything has a use and is validly useable all the way to the endgame. Every weapon, piece of gear, or cyberware implant has ways of synergizing with other pieces of kit in obvious ways...and ways of synergizing in really unexpected and surprising ways. I'd really like to see something like:
If you have this sort of gun, coupled with that piece of cyberware, the character gains access to an ability that no other combination of kit will grant.

I'd find it so much more interesting and rewarding to engage in a system like that -- fewer total weapons, armors, etc., but lots of unique abilities to unlock. Rather than hundreds of ways to min-max an extra 20 DPS.

 

[lefouduroi.pr]

Alright, three of us agree, close this one up!

I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

 

[CS554]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from with this. (It may be getting a little far away from "loot" concerns, per say. But it's highlighting the why of the argument.

I should had provided more context. So say some developer reads this and think, okay there might be a problem here. So they pitch that loot should be made more interesting and to achieve that game should have more and better iconic and unique items to get players more motivated about looting and component economy. And for crafting, if there were a sound effect associated with leveling up an item would make crafting feel more rewarding.

That wouldn't solve anything in context what the topic and what OP is all about.

It would work for players whom such features are interesting already but it would be terrible for someone like me whom experience and what I feel rewarding has nothing to do with such features. I encountered that sort of thing with when trying all sort of games via Game Pass, chuckled and uninstalled.

Agreed. And that's why, for a game that's pacing a story, introducing plastic bags that can be picked up really doesn't accomplish much besides interrupting the pacing of the story and dramatic action.

Yeah I get that but in the end, we have the game we have. A plastic bag is abstraction, in game components are abstraction too to degree.

A "plastic bag" at the side of the road can be: a plastic bottle, a canned drink, a towel, old car tire.

For V who tends to buy gear: Items listed above are just something banal, irrelevant but that they exist adds to suspension of disbelief
For V who tends to make their own gear: Items listed above are components - > silencer / suppressor. Can be anything, but that loot exists can also add to suspension of disbelief on that playstyle

Not one economy but two. No practical value regardless players different approaches and preferences has changed. In one economy switching off highlighting of banal items is very viable, in other one highlighting items remains important feature.

I don't think it would be realistic expectation for CDPR remove loot as it's tied to crafting and so character creation and that. What might be within realistic expectations, perhaps is if CDPR could enhance how players perceive items and can make informed decision regarding how they approach in-game economy. A bit like Brazilian Real, real life story behind that is quite fascinating, but for CP2077 goal would be different.

Could also reconsider world from the point of view of character. So V goes to weapon store and buys a assault rifle for 400 €$ and troubles away to do mercenary things. Comes back a couple of days later to buy better rifle and it's like 70,000 €$ and V's there like "Even for hyperinflation this is like fucking ridiculous, are for R$eal?"

 

[nirile1410]

I agree, is not necessary to pick everything up in Cyberpunk.
But there is a specific reason, on why not.

Simply because the weapons are all the same.
Wanna waste time looking for a weapon with +1 damage? Why?

Looks how Borderlands handle gun randomisation. That's quality.

 

[SigilFey]

I should had provided more context. So say some developer reads this and think, okay there might be a problem here. So they pitch that loot should be made more interesting and to achieve that game should have more and better iconic and unique items to get players more motivated about looting and component economy. And for crafting, if there were a sound effect associated with leveling up an item would make crafting feel more rewarding.

That wouldn't solve anything in context what the topic and what OP is all about.

It would work for players whom such features are interesting already but it would be terrible for someone like me whom experience and what I feel rewarding has nothing to do with such features. I encountered that sort of thing with when trying all sort of games via Game Pass, chuckled and uninstalled.

...

Could also reconsider world from the point of view of character. So V goes to weapon store and buys a assault rifle for 400 €$ and troubles away to do mercenary things. Comes back a couple of days later to buy better rifle and it's like 70,000 €$ and V's there like "Even for hyperinflation this is like fucking ridiculous, are for Real?"

Well, I seriously doubt any sort of change we're discussing would even be feasible for CP2077, as it stands. The way loot works is kind of central to the gameplay, love it or hate it. It's more about creating a vision that might work more fluently and feel more rewarding and engaging for future titles.

The choice that I think was ineffective here was working so heavy a focus on loot into a game that was trying so hard to be story-egaging and -motivated. It's a consideration where I feel, "Less is more," would definitely have worked out better.

The way loot is implemented also effects the loot itself, comprehensively, in a large way. Rather than introducing interesting, diverse mechanics (like games that are wholly focused on loot and combat), most of the stuff in Cyberpunk just doesn't really do much of anything that every other thing you pick up can't do. Things like chem or shock effects on certain weapons don't mean much if I can just kill the same targets with one or two shots from any, standard pistol, too. Things like armor or cyberware with specific resistances don't mean much if I can just pop a healing stim during combat anytime I want, and they're so readily available that I'm unlikely to ever run out. Bullets that ricochet or track targets don't mean much if I can just shoot through the wall or run up and melee a target with that same character. Etc. There's so many options that they all sort of blend into a big fog of, "Doesn't really matter what you do -- just pick something! It's all available to everyone all the time, and it all creates the same results!"

It certainly won't be a "quick fix", like you, yourself identify above. I don't think we have to worry about that, either. (Like I said, the way it works presently seems pretty baked-in.)

Instead, if weapons were more limited, it would allow them to become more defined:

Theres a big mech I need to take out:

Heavy Weapons -- Just brute-force the target until it's dead. You fire weapons that simply blow up or dissemble the physical material of the mech until it's completely destroyed. Bits and pieces. Challenges: heavy weapons are extremely expensive to fire. If you fire enough, it's going to start becoming a financial concern. They're also very dangerous weapons because of splash damage, and that can be accentuated if friendly fire or collateral damage are a gameplay concern.

Assault Rifle -- I can take the target on directly, but it will require some tactics. Sustained bursts of fire can disorient the mech's systems, even if not causing a lot of damage, giving me windows to close in and go for weak points. Challenges: I'll need to carefully handle movement and balance aggression with caution. I might need to augment my main weapon's attacks with secondary weapons like grenades or special ammunition to actually bring down the target. I can't just "shoot it till it's dead".

Shotgun -- I can use slugs to penetrate and damage armor plating on different components of the mech, and I can use shot to shred internals once they're open. Challenges: I'll need to be in close, which is obviously dangerous. If I make a mistake, I may die very quickly. So, like assault rifles, my tactics need to be sound, but I'll likely be able to bring it down faster. Higher risk, expedient results.

Handgun -- This is not an ideal weapon to use at all. I can only damage the mech by hitting weak points. Challenges: I'll need to prioritize which parts to go for first, and I'll need to be pretty defensive. Special ammo might give me a bit of help, but using secondary weapons like explosives would probably be best to open up opportunities. Once I have an opening, a few, precise shots will be needed to pick apart the various components of the mech. Super risky, however, with almost no room for error. "Don't fight mechs with pistols," is the lesson learned here, but it's possible.

Melee -- I'll need to get in close and go for those critical spots, and that's arguably nuts. Challenges: I need an approach that will let me actually get close enough to attack at hand-to-hand range. Secondary weapons might help again, but tactics will be more critical. Surprise, surprise, though: if I can get a drop on the mech from above, I can climb on it and get a melee weapon right into its targeting system before it throws me off, giving me a huge advantage for the remainder of the fight.

Sniper Rifle -- I'll need to go for those critical components at range. Challenges: The mech has a powerful, long-range ability to saturate an area with fire. I'll need to repeatedly displace, break contact, and make every shot count when I re-engage. It will mean I can't take it head-on -- I'll need to be a sniper. Again, collateral damage could be a major concern here, so getting those shots off without actually being detected could be important.

Tech Skills -- I can use hacking to shut it down, but it will be tricky. Challenges: If I fail an attempt or the timer runs out, it will make every subsequent attempt harder until I'm finally locked out by its firewall. I'll have to prioritize what parts to go for. Risk it all on a core shutdown which will be really hard with an incredibly small time window, or play it safe and turn off a few individual systems before going for the kill? EMP weapons can buy me a little extra time.

Stealth/Diplomacy -- I never engage. Either I snoop around to learn the lay of the land earlier in the mission while remaining hidden, or I talk it up with people in the area while disguised. I find a mainframe computer using subterfuge, then shut down the mech before ever entering that area. Challenges: It requires patient, methodical gameplay and attention to detail to avoid the combat altogether.

That, to me, is role-playing combat. Not simply gathering loot, deciding what sort of elemental effect to augment my attacks with, upping my DPS, and hopefully lowering the time it takes to whittle down the mech's health bar. And I think it would be better to have fewer actual weapons to choose from, as it would mean that each, individual weapon's characteristics would remain more clearly defined.

Plus, if development time and focus is not being spent on creating piles and piles of various weapons, armor, and gear...it can be spent creating really interesting, surprising, and varied challenges for players to engage with using the more focused arsenal of tools at their disposal.

Lastly, it moves the narrative gameplay forward at a steadier pace. While I'm still provided a wealth of options that all feel distinct, at no time am I removed from that flow to search through random containers, run around picking things up from the ground, sifting through inventory, or grinding away on a crafting screen. I just use my character's chosen weapons and skills to overcome the mech and move directly on.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Well, I seriously doubt any sort of change we're discussing would even be feasible for CP2077, as it stands. The way loot works is kind of central to the gameplay, love it or hate it. It's more about creating a vision that might work more fluently and feel more rewarding and engaging for future titles.

The choice that I think was ineffective here was working so heavy a focus on loot into a game that was trying so hard to be story-egaging and -motivated. It's a consideration where I feel, "Less is more," would definitely have worked out better.

The way loot is implemented also effects the loot itself, comprehensively, in a large way. Rather than introducing interesting, diverse mechanics (like games that are wholly focused on loot and combat), most of the stuff in Cyberpunk just doesn't really do much of anything that every other thing you pick up can't do. Things like chem or shock effects on certain weapons don't mean much if I can just kill the same targets with one or two shots from any, standard pistol, too. Things like armor or cyberware with specific resistances don't mean much if I can just pop a healing stim during combat anytime I want, and they're so readily available that I'm unlikely to ever run out. Bullets that ricochet or track targets don't mean much if I can just shoot through the wall or run up and melee a target with that same character. Etc. There's so many options that they all sort of blend into a big fog of, "Doesn't really matter what you do -- just pick something! It's all available to everyone all the time, and it all creates the same results!"

I couldn't have explained it better. Kudos.

 

[CS554]

Well, I seriously doubt any sort of change we're discussing would even be feasible for CP2077, as it stands. The way loot works is kind of central to the gameplay, love it or hate it. It's more about creating a vision that might work more fluently and feel more rewarding and engaging for future titles.

The choice that I think was ineffective here was working so heavy a focus on loot into a game that was trying so hard to be story-egaging and -motivated. It's a consideration where I feel, "Less is more," would definitely have worked out better.

They may very well tweak it and like @LeKill3rFou wrote earlier, component prices were adjusted radically via some patch. They also changed price of "valuable" junk and while those things may not look much, they have a huge effect. @LeKill3rFou already covered component price impact to need to loot items. Valuable junk price change, was IIRC from 750€$ to 150€$ which as it makes players consider Scrapper perk (junk items are automatically disassembled) from Tech / Crafting. It's also just level 5 perk so players can invest just that without that dictating their entire playstyle / character build. There were topics about that perk before saying, that it might be one of the most essential perks and now threshold to pick that is much lower since even valuable items go for just 150€$.

And like I wrote, they could make hyperinflation not so terrible to practically make €$ economy more viable to players.

There's also that I don't think loot system is finished. I don't wan to start speculating about that any further and they may just leave it like is anyway.

The way loot is implemented also effects the loot itself, comprehensively, in a large way. Rather than introducing interesting, diverse mechanics (like games that are wholly focused on loot and combat), most of the stuff in Cyberpunk just doesn't really do much of anything that every other thing you pick up can't do. Things like chem or shock effects on certain weapons don't mean much if I can just kill the same targets with one or two shots from any, standard pistol, too. Things like armor or cyberware with specific resistances don't mean much if I can just pop a healing stim during combat anytime I want, and they're so readily available that I'm unlikely to ever run out. Bullets that ricochet or track targets don't mean much if I can just shoot through the wall or run up and melee a target with that same character. Etc. There's so many options that they all sort of blend into a big fog of, "Doesn't really matter what you do -- just pick something! It's all available to everyone all the time, and it all creates the same results!"

I think this goes for any army in the world: it's absolutely all about achieving the same result, eliminating the opposing force, with whatever.

CP 2077 has the best combat I can think of any game of its type. I can appreciate cheese factor too, with high enough body and certain perks, using machine guns without support and being able to actually hit something, even better, standing with that thing out there which means being a huge target and via game system have some staying power.

Deus Ex, Mass Effect series, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, Deus Ex prequels, Outer Worlds. Tom Clancy's the Division, not sure where it's among those but anyway.

There was something intuitive in Deus Ex, even though there wasn't cover system or anything like that. Mass Effect 1 was pretty good too, MOuter Worlds was okay, ME2 was.. there has to be a sniper rifle but no real scenarios for that, Deus Ex prequels were mixed bag. ME3 was a case of serious identity crisis. Fallouts and the Division were terrible, for a bit different reasons.

CP 2077 is the best because it actually makes sense and system keeps combat fast paced. There are actually one or two situations with mech where that electrical damage can become very convenient. Poison can be good in situation where last enemy spots V and V can just shot one or two bullets and withdraw to let poison do it's work -> non lethal. Tech weapons, they are bit curious but in the end they are intended to be used with Ping quickhack. It's not that even modern assault rifle ammo can't penetrate things. There are variables, distance, ammo type, fragmentation, bullet changing direction. I tried to look a good source summarizing penetration vs armor, concrete, wood, etc. but didn't find good single source. Anyway, common thing that can happen in CP 2077, shoot NPC through door, Tech weapons achieve that.

For me there are clearly very specific roles that different weapons much like (when applicable) their real life counterparts and I appreciate how different kind of assault rifles for example can work very differently regarding player approach to combat and build. Burst fire Nowaki can be very good for builds with relatively low Reflexes / Assault (early game regardless of build) if tactic is bait and keep retreating back from cover to cover. I actually made a post about different weapons in one of weapon topics months ago, but I'm not going to look that up now.

Submachine guns are perhaps a bit of wasted potential because the way how combat works, as silencer would more sense with them than assault rifles, but that's nothing to do with loot system / crafting.

I'm not going to do breakdown of melee any further than in context of game system and loot. My first and third playthroughs were great as I didn't bothered with all the junk but just kept checking time to time if there's better baseball bat dropped. For my corpo it was pistols, but mainly system enables that. Being dependent of gimmicks would be counterproductive for that and goal of OP.

It certainly won't be a "quick fix", like you, yourself identify above. I don't think we have to worry about that, either. (Like I said, the way it works presently seems pretty baked-in.)

Yeah, one can wish. Modders might pick up something from this discussion though.