Crafting

[Lolssi83.811]

Crafting

Talking about repair on other thread got me thinking about crafting and since couldn't find topic about it, and.. here.. we.. go. Personally I don't care about crafting that much. It is nice distraction, but I can live without it.

Should there be crafting and how deep system? I'd assume techs can craft stuff at least?
Fallen Earth had great crafting system where pretty much everything could be crafted and everything was crafting component, but that would be too deep for some people.

Didn't like Witcher 2's crafting system really. Propably since you carried all the stuff and somebody else did the crafting. Of course we can't be expected to craft everything by ourselves, especially in the future where there are high-tech involved.

 

[wisdom000]

Cyberpunk is the world of the future, I don't see much being made by hand... repairs yes, modifications yes... but making thigns from scratch... nah, don't really see it being viable for anyone but the most advanced techies...

 

[Mister_Lizard]

If Techie or Medtechie are roles that can be played, then a crafting system will be necessary. Starting with repairs and modifications and moving into creating items from parts. The creation of new i.e. never been made before, items is something that would be a lot of fun but would require a lot of skill, most likely in several different disciplines.

As much as I loved Fallout NV I don't want to see a repair system like theirs. Make it more like their crafting system, which I quite enjoyed. Break down the crap-9 and Saturday night special for parts. So what if the cyberlimb that you cut off of the booster you just killed took 12 SDP, some of the servos and circuits will still work. But all this takes skill time and some money.

Lets remember what Sard said in the other thread "The future is disposable", most things should be cheaper to just replace. It's called planned obsolescence and corporations do it today. I am sure that the mega corps of 2077 will just have gotten better at it.

 

[Lolssi83.811]

So what if the cyberlimb that you cut off of the booster you just killed took 12 SDP, some of the servos and circuits will still work. But all this takes skill time and some money.

I like the fact that even if the item is broken you could still find use for it.
And Wisdom aren't nomads like the ultimate crafters that make armors out of trashcans and stuff?

 

[Mister_Lizard]

I like the fact that even if the item is broken you could still find use for it.
And Wisdom aren't nomads like the ultimate crafters that make armors out of trashcans and stuff?

No no, Nomads just eat trash and live in dumps.

 

[Sardukhar]

^Ownt.

Smirk.

 

[Decatonkeil]

No no, Nomads just eat trash and live in dumps.

I thought nomads tied rabid opossums to sticks. Is that weapon crafting?

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I really want to see a good crafting system. If I can break down spare or damaged gear and equipment for parts and use an AutoCad/3D printer to fill in the gaps to build new kit, that would be awesome. I would love a way to make new 'models' for weapons and armour, though I think I am probably aiming for the stars on that one. Even if I just get the option for swapping components or using a specific framework to build new gear, I would be happy.

Specifically for weapons, I really want to see the customised weapon options from Solo of Fortune 2.

As an example; I want to rechamber an M31A1 from 4.5mm to 7.62mm. I want to improve its cooling by cutting some slits in the barrel shroud. I don't mind losing some range and RoF to compensate and I am sure I wont fit 150 rounds in after, (though I would be happy with 60-ish). I would like to keep the 25mm launcher, though a mag extension on it to accept 6 rounds instead of 4 would be good. Oh, and I want it in matte black with yellow detailing. The only real visual difference here would be the cooling slits and the paint job, the frame is the same though the skin would need reworking. To do it in game, I assume I would need to break down a few other weapons, like an FN-RAL or an A-80 and make new magazines on a 3D printer, (as they would be proprietary.)

That is the level of customisation I want and it's a huge part of teh game for me. I am never happy with 'stock' options and the more I can change, the happier I get.

Another use for crafting could be 'restricted' items. It may be cheaper to go buy all your guns, but it may be easier and quicker to make one if you are not liscenced to use it. And you never know if your loca fixer will be out of stock...

 

[wisdom000]

I like the fact that even if the item is broken you could still find use for it.
And Wisdom aren't nomads like the ultimate crafters that make armors out of trashcans and stuff?

Um.... yeah....

Dammit

 

[wisdom000]

As an example; I want to rechamber an M31A1 from 4.5mm to 7.62mm. I want to improve its cooling by cutting some slits in the barrel shroud. I don't mind losing some range and RoF to compensate and I am sure I wont fit 150 rounds in after, (though I would be happy with 60-ish). I would like to keep the 25mm launcher, though a mag extension on it to accept 6 rounds instead of 4 would be good. Oh, and I want it in matte black with yellow detailing. The only real visual difference here would be the cooling slits and the paint job, the frame is the same though the skin would need reworking. To do it in game, I assume I would need to break down a few other weapons, like an FN-RAL or an A-80 and make new magazines on a 3D printer, (as they would be proprietary.)

See.... thats where it kind of gets ridiculous for me...

Even dropping the mag down to 60, you are looking at an oversized and heavy mag (7.62mm rounds are like 3 inches long) as opposed to a 4.5mm, which is the same as a .17 caliber... basically a tiny bit larger than a .22 long rifle...

Here, for comparison...

Number 5. Those tiny little things, are a 4.5mm bullets (.17 caliber) , number 14 is the 7.62mm round (308) and 15 is the other 7.62 round (30-06)

Number 8 is the .223 (5.56mm) that is the standard for US forces today.

You are trying to modify a .22 rimfire pistol to fire .50AE ammo...

See how trying to fit the 7.62 in your M31A1 presents a problem? It's twice as long, and twice as fat. Adding 2 extra rounds to the mini-gl would also increase the barrel length by about 6 inches (the length of 2 standard 12 gauge shells)

If they do decide to include something like this, I hope they take at least basic plausibility into consideration...

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

See.... thats where it kind of gets ridiculous for me...

Even dropping the mag down to 60, you are looking at an oversized and heavy mag (7.62mm rounds are like 3 inches long) as opposed to a 4.5mm, which is the same as a .17 caliber... basically a tiny bit larger than a .22 long rifle...

Here, for comparison...

Number 5. Those tiny little things, are a 4.5mm bullets (.17 caliber) , number 14 is the 7.62mm round (308) and 15 is the other 7.62 round (30-06)

Number 8 is the .223 (5.56mm) that is the standard for US forces today.

You are trying to modify a .22 rimfire pistol to fire .50AE ammo...

See how trying to fit the 7.62 in your M31A1 presents a problem? It's twice as long, and twice as fat. Adding 2 extra rounds to the mini-gl would also increase the barrel length by about 6 inches (the length of 2 standard 12 gauge shells)

If they do decide to include something like this, I hope they take at least basic plausibility into consideration...

Now, this is an area I have paid attention to.

I was thinking more along the lines of 7.62mmx39mm, the soviet stuff, althugh the stadard nato size would be more attractive for thes topping power. Also, the M31A1 uses caseless ammo, so overall cartridge length is greatly reduced, as is the space needed to store them.

But yes, a liberal amount of common sense should be applied, hence why I said cutting the 150 round mag down to 60 or less was expected. I would proabbly be looking at increasing the height of the mag a touch to fit them in, though the amount would be marginal, so the actual in game model would not need to be changed.

 

[Sardukhar]

I love how Wisdom then goes on about issues in modifying rounds. Like a good Nomad.

Someone hand this man a rabid opossum. And a stick.

 

[Mister_Lizard]

When rechambering to a larger caliber, remember that kinetic energy is 1/2 mass*(velocity squared). The actual size difference between the 7.62 soviet and 7.62 NATO bullets (the little pieces of copper jacketed lead) is negligible and they aren't that much larger, length wise than a .556 bullet. The difference in round size is due to the greater mass of propellant required to accelerate the 7.62 bullet to a velocity comparable to the .556. Caseless saves space over cased rounds but not over each other.

Back to the physics argument, you can get the same amount, and in some cases more, kinetic energy delivered on target by reducing mass and increasing velocity. The increase in velocity also provides for a "flatter" ballistic trajectory, this translates to greater short to mid range accuracy. These are reasons why the modern fire arms industry has been making more and more "needle guns". Take a look at the FN P-90 and FiveSeven, granted the 5.7x28mm is a pistol round but the military grade ammunition is illegal for civilian sale as it is inherently armor defeating. A .45 may deliver slightly more kinetic energy than a 5.7 but that large cross section of its ogive make it easier to stop.

Bigger isn't always better, it's just bigger. Anyway sorry for the physics/firearm nerd rant.

I had completely forgotten about 3D printers. Here is where you might need a netrunner, because certain manufacturing codes might be proprietary or even illegal to produce on mass market printers. There could be a vigorous black market trade in restricted codes or codes that allow you to circumvent the printer's built in security. Here is where cost would come into play, not only for the codes but for the printer medium, it is not like all of the parts that you want to make can be made form cheap resin or even expensive resin.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

When rechambering to a larger caliber, remember that kinetic energy is 1/2 mass*(velocity squared). The actual size difference between the 7.62 soviet and 7.62 NATO bullets (the little pieces of copper jacketed lead) is negligible and they aren't that much larger, length wise than a .556 bullet. The difference in round size is due to the greater mass of propellant required to accelerate the 7.62 bullet to a velocity comparable to the .556. Caseless saves space over cased rounds but not over each other.

Back to the physics argument, you can get the same amount, and in some cases more, kinetic energy delivered on target by reducing mass and increasing velocity. The increase in velocity also provides for a "flatter" ballistic trajectory, this translates to greater short to mid range accuracy. These are reasons why the modern fire arms industry has been making more and more "needle guns". Take a look at the FN P-90 and FiveSeven, granted the 5.7x28mm is a pistol round but the military grade ammunition is illegal for civilian sale as it is inherently armor defeating. A .45 may deliver slightly more kinetic energy than a 5.7 but that large cross section of its ogive make it easier to stop.

Bigger isn't always better, it's just bigger. Anyway sorry for the physics/firearm nerd rant.

In this particular case, a 4.5mm (.177) round weighs roughly 20gr, (about 1 gram.) The soviet 7.62mm x 39mm comes in at about 123gr, (8 grams,) and the nato 7.62mm x 51mm is a hefty 147gr, (9.5 grams.)

So in this particular ccomparison, you would achieve a very high level of penetration with the 4.5mm, but for stopping power and trauma potential, the huge increae in mass from the 7.62mm rounds would make them much more lethal.

All in all though, it's down to 'the right tool for the right job' whcih applies to just about everything in life.

I just want the gun that my first character converted way back when I first bought Blackhands and SoF2...

I had completely forgotten about 3D printers. Here is where you might need a netrunner, because certain manufacturing codes might be proprietary or even illegal to produce on mass market printers. There could be a vigorous black market trade in restricted codes or codes that allow you to circumvent the printer's built in security. Here is where cost would come into play, not only for the codes but for the printer medium, it is not like all of the parts that you want to make can be made form cheap resin or even expensive resin.

I think these are very good points. One of the things I always loved about CP was the ability for different characters to interact on so many levels. All of your suggestion needs cross role interaction to be at peak efficiency:
You need a netrunner to locate, unlock and retrieve information that is otherwise illegal un unavailable.
You need a techie to do the work.
and
you need a fixer to get pasrts and move product.

 

[blank_redge]

I wouldn't mind a crafting mechanic, but I don't know how I feel about crafting "recipies," or at least, as presented in Fallout 3. I thought the mechanic in New Vegas was better; smelting down the lead in rounds to re-cast them as different caliber rounds, recycling brass / shells, salvaging primers, and the like. Hopefully, though, these won't be "instant" actions, as they are in F3 / F:NV. (Ever try handloading rounds in real life? DEFINITELY a time-consuming activity.)

For CP2077, I can also see getting components for things like recreational pharmaceuticals, or cobbling together homebrew electronics, though, of course, you'd need the requisite skill.

(One thing I did prefer in F3 to F:NV was the skill-checks. The percentage made more sense to me than the pass / fail system of F:NV.)

 

[Mister_Lizard]

In this particular case, a 4.5mm (.177) round weighs roughly 20gr, (about 1 gram.) The soviet 7.62mm x 39mm comes in at about 123gr, (8 grams,) and the nato 7.62mm x 51mm is a hefty 147gr, (9.5 grams.)

So in this particular ccomparison, you would achieve a very high level of penetration with the 4.5mm, but for stopping power and trauma potential, the huge increae in mass from the 7.62mm rounds would make them much more lethal.

Not exactly, the bulk of the damage that is caused form a bullet wound in in the form of hydrostatic shock. That is the displacement of the fluids and organs in the body. the energy that causes this comes from the transfer of kinetic energy from the bullet to your innards. To get maximum transfer of energy to the body you don't want the round to penetrate all the way through. This is achieved in most cases by bullet design, either hollowpoints which expand and present maximum surface area for energy transfer or by the Dum Dum type round. Also 1.5g or 1.5x10^-3kg is not a huge increase in mass especially when compared to the average 75m/s difference in velocity. The point being that the round must first penetrate to do damage but will usually overpenetrate hence the reduction of damage from AP rounds in the system. But truly all this is quibbling, this is a game and I would be the last person to deny you the ability to make your favorite gun in the game. Even if it is Mickey Mouse

 

[wisdom000]

You know what, prod is right, as long as you aren;t doing something really silly, like making a 12 shot double barrled (or even 3 barrelled, fucking sr3) then I am just gonna shut up.

I have been way to negative, and I realize I am coming off as an asshole... sorry.

 

[Lolssi83.811]

I had completely forgotten about 3D printers. Here is where you might need a netrunner, because certain manufacturing codes might be proprietary or even illegal to produce on mass market printers. There could be a vigorous black market trade in restricted codes or codes that allow you to circumvent the printer's built in security. Here is where cost would come into play, not only for the codes but for the printer medium, it is not like all of the parts that you want to make can be made form cheap resin or even expensive resin.

I like this so much. Even though we're gonna get several 3D printers at work soon, they still feel like sci-fi to me.
But them using codes that are heavily regulated sounds great so you won't have magic machine that pumps out anything you want.

 

[Mister_Lizard]

I think these are very good points. One of the things I always loved about CP was the ability for different characters to interact on so many levels. All of your suggestion needs cross role interaction to be at peak efficiency:
You need a netrunner to locate, unlock and retrieve information that is otherwise illegal un unavailable.
You need a techie to do the work.
and
you need a fixer to get pasrts and move product.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at. And it is why I am all for companions and Co-Op play. As the world becomes more and more technologically complex, it becomes harder to be a renaissance man. There is not enough time to become an expert in multiple disciplines, you need friends and if not friends at least talented contacts.

 

[Sardukhar]

Hirelings. Job done. Companions generally feel so false. Perhaps CP2077 will change that.

Crafting still looks tedious to me. Perhaps differentiating between crafting and modding existing gear?