Evolution of Key Firearms in the Cyberpunk Timeline - Where to Next?

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Evolution of Key Firearms in the Cyberpunk Timeline - Where to Next?

So, I was wondering about what state some of the weapons we know and love from reality and Cyberpunk will be in by 2077, so lets start off with:

The M16 - Wikipedia



Designed in 1956 and put into service by the U.S. military in 1962, replacing the M14. After a bit of a rocky start, (*cough* Vietnam *cough*,) the M16 platorm evolved and was adapted to a multitude of roles. This meant that they were scaling down their ammo from 7.62mm NATO to 5.56mm NATO. It is arguably one of the best weapons availble to any of the worlds military.

In the Cyberpunk timeline the U.S. military decided to hold trials in 1998 to replace the 'obsolete' M16A2. It was replaced by;

The FN SAP System - Corp Book 2


(No actual image available - supplemented with artistic license...)

A pile of junk that was only adopted by the U.S. miltary because FN had political clout and undercut all the other competion in the 1998 trials. It was so unreliable that many of the troops sent to South America during the war that were armed with it were unable to adequately defend themselves and were slaughtered as a result.

No idea what ammo the FN SAP used, though it's succesor at FN was the FN RAL, which uses 7.62mm caseless, and it's predecessor was the FN FAL, which used 7.62mm NATO, it's a reasonable bet it was 7.62mm, (though its anyones guess if it was cased or caseless.)

In 2004 the U.S. miltary finally decided enough was enough and replaced their expensive paper weights with;

The Militech Ronin Light Assault - Blackhand's Street Weapons



A light, all-purpose update, similar to the M-16B, the Ronin was the standard U.S. assault rifle for over two decades. Old fashioned, with a serviceable bullpup design, firing caseless 5.56mm ammunition, it became a benchmark against which other assault rifles are measured. Like the M-16 before it, there were arguably better guns on the market, but the U.S. had thousands of them, and couldn't really afford to give them up and re-equip with new rifles until recently, when the Army and Marine Corps replaced it with the Mk IV Assault Weapon. Guard and reserve units are still largely outfitted with M-20s. The M-20 can be outfitted with the M-205 and other commercial grenade launchers.

So, first big changes are that the U.S. military not only swapped from the traditional rifle layout of the M16 to a more compact bullpup configuration, (yet managed to only lose a meager 4 inches off the weapon systems overall length?!?!?,) but also dumped cased ammo in favour of caseless.
PS: - I also have no idea what the M-20 is and I can't find any other mention of it.

The Mk IV - Blackhand's Street Weapons/Corp Book 2



The Mk IV is a potent, heavy duty, bullpup assault weapon only recently introduced to the Militech Catalogue. Its recoil compensation system, and excellent design and balancing make it among the most controllable weapons available. It has recently become the standard issue weapon for all Lazarus non-airborne infantry units. It is also the standard issue rifle for U.S. infantry troops, complementing the Sternmeyer CG-13B, in service with special units, and the M-31a1 AICW just completing trials. The Mk IV is based on the old Mk III design (therefore Revised), and chambers the new hybrid 6.5mm round. The 6.5mm is a new concept that Militech is currently trying to market. It packs a wallop close to that of the heavy duty 7.62mm cartridge, while retaining a flat trajectory, controllability, and light cartridge weight reminiscent of the 5.56mm round. A big selling point of the Mk IV is that it comes with a quick change replacement barrel system that allows the weapon to be converted to 5.56mm within a few seconds, under battlefield conditions.

So, the U.S. military swapped from 5.56mm to 6.5mm, (though it remained caseless.) This is really interesting considering the amount of real life military interest shown in both the 6.5mm Grendel and the 6.8mm SPC over the last decade. They also managed to shave a few more inches off the weapons overall length, (but then isn't that the whole point of the bullpup design?)
 
So, lets ahve a look at the infamous:

The AK-47/AKM/AK-74 - Wikipedia + Personal Anotation



Designed back in 1946, (talk about "built to last"...) the AK-47 was taken into active service in the Soviet military in 1948 and officially accepted enmass by 1949. An upgraded version called the AKM entered service in 1959. Chambered for the 7.62x39mm Soviet round, these immortal icons of warfare remain in use to this day.

Another, further upgraded version called the AK-74 came along in 1974 to replace the AKM. It was chambered for the smaller 5.45x39mm Soviet round.

You know what, the AK series of weapons comes in just about every calibre and over 100 million AK's have been built, (that we know of!) That means there are more AK's in the world than all other assault rifles added together.

There have been more AK-47's, (that's just the AK-47's, not the AKM's, AK-74's or any of the other varients,) known to have been produced than there are people in Britain. That is enough to give every single person in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland an AK-47, yet still have spares...

Anyway, in Cyberpunk the AK was replaced by;

The AKR-20 - CP2020/Black hand's Street Weapons



A plastic and carbon-fiber update of the AKM, distributed throughout the remains of the Soviet Bloc. Uses cased ammo.

So, even the Soviets ditched the traditional configuration in favour of a bullpup design, (yet they chose to actually go with a more compact weapon, actually taking advantge of the design principles...)
Oh, AND they kept to cased ammo.


The Kalashnikov A-80 - CP2020/Black hand's Street Weapons

(No pictures available.)

Another Soviet retread, with improved sighting and lightened with composites.

All the other weapons in the books specifically state that they are of a bullpup design if they, and this one doesn't. I take that to mean it follows the traditional configuration. It does use caseless ammo though. Also, it is chambered for 7.62mm, but not Soviet. This bad boy uses the heftier NATO calibre.

According to Corp Book 3, both the AKR-20 and A-80 were in service within the USSR right up until they were replaced with;


The Stolovboy ST-5- Corp Book 3



A light, sturdy bullpup weapon. The ST-5 was designed to withstand the rugged environmental conditions in the Soviet Union. Using innovative design and special lubricants, Stolbovoy has created a weapon that can operate reliably under the most adverse conditions, including heat, cold, mud, dampness, sand and grit, lubricant contamination, and corrosive environments. One of the toughest, most reliable assault rifles in the world; troops are quoted as saying, "It never breaks!" Comes with iron sights, but can be scoped. In long and short barreled versions. Smartchipping availabe.So, the USSR finally moved away from the Kalashnikov designs as their primary service rifle. It's a bullpup design and is chambered for the caseless version of the 5.45mm Soviet round. Stolov Boy weapons are the most reliable weapons in the 2020 game world. I was kind of disappointed with the mediocre reliability of Soviet weaponry in Cyberpunk, right up until I found this manufacturer, (just a pity you basically have to go to the USSR to get one...)
 
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And it's only a fake one, so no harm no foul :D

Anyway, the majority of 2020 weaponry moved from cased ammo to caseless and rifles adopted the bullpup design over the traditional layout.

Now, in the 2077 trailer we see one rifle type:





So, CDPR opted to keep to the bullpup design, but they reverted back to cased ammo. They also chose to make it a combined weapon system. I think the upper barrel is a shotgun, even though on close inspection the cartridge case has "40mm" on it. There is also a nice holographic sight, (which didn't exist in 2020 to my knowledge.)


And, one last iconic weapon, the Militech Crusher SSG. It started out looking like this:



And CDPR updated it like this:



That is a tasty looking weapon! I really like the updated ammo counter display too:


(Shame there isn't a Militech.com website up...)


And for those who have been living under a rock for the last year, CDPR also had a life size display version made:



http://www.volpinprops.com/militech-crusher-cyberpunk-2077/


So, I wonder where CDPR and Mike are going to take weapons tech in 2077. I am loving the visual style they seem to be going for, but what improvements do we think they are likely to make to the weapons themselves?
 
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I very much like this thread... and I would very much like it if we could get the precurser and"in-between" versions of the current weapons... an old-style Crusher, or a 2045 model Armalite .44

Yeah, that would be tits...
 
I very much like this thread... and I would very much like it if we could get the precurser and"in-between" versions of the current weapons... an old-style Crusher, or a 2045 model Armalite .44

Yeah, that would be tits...

In one of the two announcement videos in YouTube, Mike specifically stated that we will see the progression of weaponry in that way. We will be able to acquire older model weapons, and I am really looking forward to that.

But Wis, what differences would you like to see in a 2045 model Armalite .44?
 
I'm sure many of the weapons will look a bit different.. (Different stocks, grips, handguards, etc)

For AK-47 or AK-74 for instance, i would not like to see any wooden parts.. It should look more like this:


Rather than this:


Small differences like that would make sense..
 
In one of the two announcement videos in YouTube, Mike specifically stated that we will see the progression of weaponry in that way. We will be able to acquire older model weapons, and I am really looking forward to that.

But Wis, what differences would you like to see in a 2045 model Armalite .44?

Well, a 1911 went from this:



To all these:




So some thing with some aesthetic variation would be nice... nothing too crazy, but the ability to get some variety, being being able to just add scope, laser sight, suppressor, change color, etc... would go a long way.
 
So we take the Armalite .44 available in 2020;



And we jazz it up a bit with a shorter barrel, (tomake it lighter and more maneuverable,) drop the old hammer in favour of an all-electric firing mechanism, some new rubberised grips and a holographic sight for good measure...






...but that leaves us with basically the same weapon, but customised. That isn't really what I was trying to get at by starting the thread.

Changes in materials, production techniques and designs could offer a lot of differences to how the stock weapon performs, not just how it looks, and that is what I am trying to get at. I am more interested in the practical changes than the cosmetic ones.

I used to go for the AMT 2000 over the Armalite for one reason and one reason only; reliability. For a mere 50eb more you get maximum reliability while all the other statistics remain the same. It does hit about twice as hard as medium handguns but it also has half the ammo and half the rate of fire. Now, with more and more Cybered up criminals the self defence market would obviously be gearing itself more towards heavier calibre weapons to compensate for the harder targets, but lighter weapons still remained popular, (at least among NPC's bcause I barely knew a single player who actually used 9mm parabellum weapons to any real effect unless they were full-auto.) I can only imagine that this is because of the extra ammo and RoF. That is of course an age old self-defence argument that is still going strong today.

But can the gap be closed somewhat? Would we be likely to see high calibre weapons with smaller mags lose popularity or would the big rounds win out? If that was the case, would we possibly see the Armalite .44 come down from a 12mm round to something like an 11mm round but carry a couple of extra rounds?
 
During the Moro Rebellion ( Philippines 1899–1913) the .38 cal revolvers lacked the stopping power to do the job so M1911 .45 cal was invented/adopted.

In the Cyberpunk universe they face exactly the same problem, the standard law enforcement handguns just don't have the capability to deal with cyberneticaly enhanced and/or drugged out bad guys. So of course they'll be adopting a new, larger bore handgun.

Déjà vu ?
 
During the Moro Rebellion ( Philippines 1899–1913) the .38 cal revolvers lacked the stopping power to do the job so M1911 .45 cal was invented/adopted.

In the Cyberpunk universe they face exactly the same problem, the standard law enforcement handguns just don't have the capability to deal with cyberneticaly enhanced and/or drugged out bad guys. So of course they'll be adopting a new, larger bore handgun.

Déjà vu ?

Very true. As I remember, the standard issue police sidearm is an 11mm semi-automatic.

I guess the question is then 'how effective can recoil compensation get' because the bigger the round the more it will kick and we all know where that leads.
 
I think I may posted this video on here somewhere a while back, but whatever.
A weapon like this would be awesome to see in the game.

 
I think I may posted this video on here somewhere a while back, but whatever.
A weapon like this would be awesome to see in the game.


Wrong thread, and yes it's been posted loads of times over various other threads. Smart chipped guns exist in 2020, so it's already there.

This thread is about how the most common weapons will change by 2077, the other weapon thread is about the wishlist.
 
Wrong thread, and yes it's been posted loads of times over various other threads. Smart chipped guns exist in 2020, so it's already there.

This thread is about how the most common weapons will change by 2077, the other weapon thread is about the wishlist.

Don't be snarky, Chris - it's not like we haven't all wandered off-topic 98 times on every thread by now. At least he's close-ish.

Let me link you the thread, Imago. http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/26982-What-weapons-do-you-want-to-see-in-the-game

Quite worth a read, if you haven't already.
 
...but that leaves us with basically the same weapon, but customised. That isn't really what I was trying to get at by starting the thread.

Ummm... that seems to be exactly what you were trying to get at, your pening post illustrated how the same weapon has evolved, and most of those changes are cosmetic. Sure they may use better materials, but unless you are talking to someone innately familiar with firearms, the guns you posted are all the same with just some slight alterations to appearance.

And when you change the hammer, add different grips, barrel extensions and porting, you can significantly change the performance of the weapon. Whish is what I was trying to get at...

but in the end, for the purposes of the video game, the stats are generally going to be altered enough by such changes to matter, so it really does all come down to appearance.

Changes in materials, production techniques and designs could offer a lot of differences to how the stock weapon performs, not just how it looks, and that is what I am trying to get at. I am more interested in the practical changes than the cosmetic ones.

I think you may be overestimating the significance those changes make in a stck weapon... particularly since a stock weapon is just that.

But can the gap be closed somewhat? Would we be likely to see high calibre weapons with smaller mags lose popularity or would the big rounds win out? If that was the case, would we possibly see the Armalite .44 come down from a 12mm round to something like an 11mm round but carry a couple of extra rounds?

If 9mm isn't an effective round in someone cyberpunk game most of the time, then the GM has no real concept of the street. Yes the occasional gangbanger may have an armor vest, hell the gang leader may even have skinweave... but your average gang member isn't going to be able to afford it. 12mm and up are effetively anti-cyborg rounds. If gang members do have armor, chances are it;s used and been shot a few times... or if you are in the combat zone its generally some kitted together bullshit made out of stop signs and tires with limited coverage (which is why IU has expanded hit locations), even cops and corporate guards, who typically ARE armored, aren't generally armored from head to toe. Metal gear is saved for special occasions, not even C-SWAT wear it all the time because it's hot, heavy and uncomfortable.

9mm is everywhere, most people aren't armored. Even in Cyberpunk 2020. If someone you are fighting is armored, make called shots and don't forget to aim.

All that being said, if you are fighting cops or corps more often than you fight street thugs, then yes, you need some punch. 12mm is the top end of regular handguns, and the rock bottom of Anti-Cyborg handguns... Cops carry 12mm because they never know what they are going to run into, and they die enough already not to tke chances. But C-SWAT will usually opt for at least a 14mm handgun, if not larger...

Of course I am going way off target here... sorry bout that.

The point is, in the evelotion of a model of a gun, it does in fact rpetty much stay the same thing. I mean the AK really is the perfect example. it's been kicking ass for half a century now, and though the cosmetic appearance may differ now, the action remains pretty much the same... if anything the new materials may make it lighter and more accurate, but they also reduce the reliability
 
Don't be snarky, Chris - it's not like we haven't all wandered off-topic 98 times on every thread by now. At least he's close-ish.
If that is how it came across then I appologise, because it was not meant to.

Ummm... that seems to be exactly what you were trying to get at, your pening post illustrated how the same weapon has evolved, and most of those changes are cosmetic. Sure they may use better materials, but unless you are talking to someone innately familiar with firearms, the guns you posted are all the same with just some slight alterations to appearance.

And when you change the hammer, add different grips, barrel extensions and porting, you can significantly change the performance of the weapon. Whish is what I was trying to get at...

but in the end, for the purposes of the video game, the stats are generally going to be altered enough by such changes to matter, so it really does all come down to appearance.
Rather than changes to stock weapons, I am curious how we think stock weapons will change.

From my point of view the changes are not just cosmetic, (and if they are then they shouldn't be.) Take the change from a traditional layout to a bullpup one; the weapon will, (in theory,) be much shorter and the mag well will be much closer to the body. The practical benefits of this in real life are that the weapon is more maneuverable, concealable and it is possible to reload faster. Those kinds of changes can easily be translated into in-game mechanics.

Lighter, heavier, shorter, longer, ammo changes, actions changes; all of these things can be applied and make differences in gameplay, and I want them to.

My other point is that while the weapons themselves have evolved, the services that use them have opted for alternative weapons and developers in the Cyberpunk timeline. This is at odds with the real world. The Colt M18 is around in 2020 and it is an upgraded version of the M16, but it is not issued by any of the armed services. They went to Militech instead.

So, it isn't about eye candy for me, its about how these weapons will achieve their goal.
 
Well, then I am kind of at a loss here...

I mean turning an M-16 into a bullpup, regardless of what the book says, would radically change the mechanics of the gun enough that it would be a new weapon entirely....

In fact, if you change the firing mechanism then at that point you have a new weapon.

A Desert Eagle can be chambered in .357, .44 and .50 ae... but all iterations use the same firing mechanism, they just switch out barrels and magazines...

Every single AR you pictured in your opening thread, works pretty much exactly the same... they get called by different designations, but they are still basically the same thing, and a layman will still universally refer to them as an m-16.

Same with the Ak.

So I am not really sure where you are going with this or what I am supposed to be contributng here...
 
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