That would actually make more sense as people might ignore a nobody but be willing to talk to (i.e give missions to) someone who has some orbs to swing.
That would actually make more sense as people might ignore a nobody but be willing to talk to (i.e give missions to) someone who has some orbs to swing.
I think what matters more is how they implement equipment progression in conjunction with the level system. Enemy levels aren't an inherently bad thing, it just depends on how it's implemented.
A good example of this is Fallout: New Vegas. Not only do you have levels, and enemies have internal levels that affect how much health and damage they have, but it also has an equipment progression that forces players to find better weapons within their skill set. The latter progression affects combat more but skills obtained from leveling allow you to do better with those weapons.
Compare that with Borderlands or Destiny, which have similar system but implemented differently. Being underleveled just means you will never be able to do damage to the enemies you could previously kill just fine.
The difference between these two systems is that the former allows for players to choose how they approach combat, and the latter just affects how much damage you do. In New Vegas, the deathclaws you encounter when you try to take the short way to New Vegas can be later easily dispatched with a few anti-material rifle rounds later in the game, but you can still get around them if you have a high sneak skill early on. Borderlands just affects damage, health, and your skills that allow you to kill enemies slightly better.
This is kind of a poor explanation, but I think this more or less sums up where the game can go bad vs good.
I agree that level requirements are bogus in most games, but with one caveat. I think that characters should not be able to wield the strongest weapon in the game without certain skills.
A good example of this is Fallout: New Vegas. Not only do you have levels, and enemies have internal levels that affect how much health and damage they have, but it also has an equipment progression that forces players to find better weapons within their skill set. The latter progression affects combat more but skills obtained from leveling allow you to do better with those weapons.
Compare that with Borderlands or Destiny, which have similar system but implemented differently. Being underleveled just means you will never be able to do damage to the enemies you could previously kill just fine.
The difference between these two systems is that the former allows for players to choose how they approach combat, and the latter just affects how much damage you do. In New Vegas, the deathclaws you encounter when you try to take the short way to New Vegas can be later easily dispatched with a few anti-material rifle rounds later in the game, but you can still get around them if you have a high sneak skill early on. Borderlands just affects damage, health, and your skills that allow you to kill enemies slightly better.
This is kind of a poor explanation, but I think this more or less sums up where the game can go bad vs good.
I agree that level requirements are bogus in most games, but with one caveat. I think that characters should not be able to wield the strongest weapon in the game without certain skills.
Why not? By all means, wield it. But be so terrible at using it that you would rather take something else instead. Unless we talk about you literally not being able to use it (as in: not strong enough to lift it, etc.).
Did The dev team see this article yet or are they ignoring the community????
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...s-weak-gunplay-and-unimaginative-stereotypes/
weak gunplay ???
serioualy i want an answer from the team.
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...s-weak-gunplay-and-unimaginative-stereotypes/
weak gunplay ???
serioualy i want an answer from the team.
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Sorry, not to dismiss your (frankly vague) complaint, but why do you think this would be the right thread to voice your concerns?
This is about a very specific topic, which isn't "weak gunplay".
Then with a kind heart since I cant create a new thread, could you point me to the correct thread to put the above info and let the dev team see it or at least make them aware of this ?
RPS is a horrible site IMO, the reviews of IGN and PC Gamer are far superior. They're one of the sites that made that drama about trans people.
There is an E3 thread, but RPS does not deserve the clicks.
Not that any sane person would click them, but...
Before I launch into a rant, the usual disclaimer: Still extremely excited by 75-80% of what I've seen, love love loving the freedom of both story and gameplay choice, loving the sound of perks/skills impacting dialogue, loving what I've heard about the stealth, FREAKING INFATUATED with the world itself and the thought of exploring it. Moving on.
Anyway, I've been a bit disappointed in this whole idea (topic) for a while. Not, as others have pointed out, because I have delusions of grandeur and expect CDPR to implement every goofy idea any forum user has. Longevity/"BUT I'M A TRUE FAN!" is meaningless. All that matters is what the dev team wants. Instead, I'm disappointed because I genuinely do not believe the system they are going for is in any way necessary. Bullet sponges, except where it makes sense based on cyberware (and don't try to tell me everybody in the game is going to have subdermal armor), are extremely irritating and immersion breaking for me. Level-gated gear, even more so.
To make matters worse, even if we look at it from a non mechanics-fan viewpoint, all CDPR has been willing to say on the subject of being forced to wear ugly gear based on stats is "we're keeping it in mind." Really? That's good to know, I guess, since people have been expressing their worries about that for years now and the game is 10 months from release.
I dunno. Maybe I'll be surprised.
@Sardukhar says mods may fix it, but we don't even have confirmed mod support (and some users on this very forum are aggressively against the idea), and the mods that do de-level the Witcher 3 took ages to make. I'm not interested in waiting years for some generous modder to build CDPR's modding tools for them, and then implement an awesome unlevelled progression system based on that. He would be redesigning the core of the game. Not a fair expectation.
I don't know what the solution is. Difficulty options, maybe, but that probably just makes it easier for you to die, and the enemies even more bullet spongy. There has been no word about any sort of "realism" mode, and even if there was, how the heck would that play with enemies having levels?
Anyway, I've been a bit disappointed in this whole idea (topic) for a while. Not, as others have pointed out, because I have delusions of grandeur and expect CDPR to implement every goofy idea any forum user has. Longevity/"BUT I'M A TRUE FAN!" is meaningless. All that matters is what the dev team wants. Instead, I'm disappointed because I genuinely do not believe the system they are going for is in any way necessary. Bullet sponges, except where it makes sense based on cyberware (and don't try to tell me everybody in the game is going to have subdermal armor), are extremely irritating and immersion breaking for me. Level-gated gear, even more so.
To make matters worse, even if we look at it from a non mechanics-fan viewpoint, all CDPR has been willing to say on the subject of being forced to wear ugly gear based on stats is "we're keeping it in mind." Really? That's good to know, I guess, since people have been expressing their worries about that for years now and the game is 10 months from release.
I dunno. Maybe I'll be surprised.
@Sardukhar says mods may fix it, but we don't even have confirmed mod support (and some users on this very forum are aggressively against the idea), and the mods that do de-level the Witcher 3 took ages to make. I'm not interested in waiting years for some generous modder to build CDPR's modding tools for them, and then implement an awesome unlevelled progression system based on that. He would be redesigning the core of the game. Not a fair expectation.
I don't know what the solution is. Difficulty options, maybe, but that probably just makes it easier for you to die, and the enemies even more bullet spongy. There has been no word about any sort of "realism" mode, and even if there was, how the heck would that play with enemies having levels?
Enemy levels are almost certainly a thing, because DnD still rules. Such is life.
If we are mildly lucky, mods will make it such that you and the enemies take "realistic" levels of damage both.
If we are more lucky, it will be a setting in 2077.
Well, Snow, you basically nailed it in one of your passages.
As you said, my main complaint is that the system is unnecessary in the first place.
Let's be clear here: we aren't talking about one of these delusional daydreaming visions for the game where "I wish every building was entirely explorable in every single floor and every single NPC was unique, distinctive and with unique voice acting". You know, the stuff that everyone would love but would inflate the budget by tenfold at best, if it was doable at all.
No, we are talking about a system that they ADDED to the game and that is *detrimental* to its quality; a system that took active effort to be implemented under the misguided assumption it was a necessity, usually justified with stances like "Because players love constantly growing numbers" (says who?) or "Otherwise the player could explore most content in every order" (The horror!).
In reality we don't have this need to inflate numbers constantly at all, and even many of the players who claim "Well, I actually like the idea!" more often then not speak from a position of ignorance and have scarce (if any) familiarity with alternatives that did these things better.
Then again sometimes they are just part of the group that claim "They hate RPGs" because "they have bad gameplay", not rarely referring precisely to "bullet sponge enemies" and HP bags as examples of what they don't like.
As you said, my main complaint is that the system is unnecessary in the first place.
Let's be clear here: we aren't talking about one of these delusional daydreaming visions for the game where "I wish every building was entirely explorable in every single floor and every single NPC was unique, distinctive and with unique voice acting". You know, the stuff that everyone would love but would inflate the budget by tenfold at best, if it was doable at all.
No, we are talking about a system that they ADDED to the game and that is *detrimental* to its quality; a system that took active effort to be implemented under the misguided assumption it was a necessity, usually justified with stances like "Because players love constantly growing numbers" (says who?) or "Otherwise the player could explore most content in every order" (The horror!).
In reality we don't have this need to inflate numbers constantly at all, and even many of the players who claim "Well, I actually like the idea!" more often then not speak from a position of ignorance and have scarce (if any) familiarity with alternatives that did these things better.
Then again sometimes they are just part of the group that claim "They hate RPGs" because "they have bad gameplay", not rarely referring precisely to "bullet sponge enemies" and HP bags as examples of what they don't like.
Ironically enough, D&D with all its limits is at least is consistent with the level of its bestiary. Aside from "heroic monsters" and special NPCs, every monster in D&D is always presented with the same specific stats, so when you meet a goblin or a troll or a Beholder you'll always know what sort of threat level they present regardless of when you meet them during a campaign.
Yeah. We'll definitely see.
Maybe I'm overestimating the difficulty involved in making a "unlevel" mod.
Yeah, or that'd give you a global "level like" feel about an npc, if you'd piss a lvl 1 street cred punk vs a lvl 20, you'd expect the one with more street cred to be able to call for backup, etc...
Dialog wise, it would give you a straight idea of your chances to make pressure on him (at low street level you'd have less chances to blackmail a ceo obviously), I really hope it's something like this, not a bethesda level system which would make no sense in Cyberpunk.
Cyberpunk (like a lots of other rpg games out there like Call of Cthulhu, Vampire the Mascerade, Mutant Chronicles, Stormbringer, etc...) doesn't have a "level" system.
It's all about skills and how you balance them. In Cyberpunk (like Call of cthulhu, etc...) your character is a bland doll (just like other people) you give him skills in stuffs that makes him shines his/her personnality.
Wanna make a lawyer? Puts a lot of social skills, laws related stuff, etc.. Well, you got the idea
But the life points are basicaly the same around all players, and guns does the same damage if the same bullets are used.
Those game are RPg, with a big emphasis on "roleplay" rather than killing stuff just to grind XP to get enough level for blablabla...
It's about playing your role right, remove the "level" visibility, makes it like you are right here, right there.
It's friday night, you're going home, a bit drunk, then an homeless crackhead jump at you screaming and barking random shits, do you take 5mn, to analyse his level or "does he have a lots of implants?", nah, it just happens.
Bam/bam/bam
Even the pnp works like that, if your player don't reply straight on when it's his character turn, you concider he just freezes and go to the next player.
You have to feel the world being always on your back, being skilled just make it a bit easier to go through it.
Now, up-leveling random street mob just to fit it sounds dumb to me.
I'd rather have a street cred level, just to show you who's important and who's not in this world.
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Actually, a Bethesda level system would make perfect sense in Cyberpunk, because it's based on skill levels, not overall levels.
Skyrim and Fallout still have "levels" in some way, but yeah, it works the same on paper.
I think it's just a misunderstanding.
People mistake "level-less" for action game. When in reality, level-less can just mean no overall levels. Well, to be specific, no overall levels in the vein that we saw in TW3.
I've actually always been a fan of the idea of an overall level that uses some mathematic formula to take relevant combat skill levels, gear, and weaponry and combine them into one. Instead of making enemies bullet spongy and having cases where a level 30 wolf is tougher than a level 5 bandit, this system just gives you an idea of how challenging they might be overall.
But that would be very complicated and I don't even have a solid suggestion for making it work, so I think it's safer to just scrap overall levels and focus on skill levels.
People mistake "level-less" for action game. When in reality, level-less can just mean no overall levels. Well, to be specific, no overall levels in the vein that we saw in TW3.
I've actually always been a fan of the idea of an overall level that uses some mathematic formula to take relevant combat skill levels, gear, and weaponry and combine them into one. Instead of making enemies bullet spongy and having cases where a level 30 wolf is tougher than a level 5 bandit, this system just gives you an idea of how challenging they might be overall.
But that would be very complicated and I don't even have a solid suggestion for making it work, so I think it's safer to just scrap overall levels and focus on skill levels.
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I mean, Fallout 2 has "levels" for the player character, but they are just used as some sort of numeric summary of your current power level.
Your base stats don't change across the game and your skills are what really matter most of the times.
And enemies are NOT leveled, anyway. Their threat level is defined by their stats/skills and MOSTLY by their equipment.
TW3 is a whole different beast. Every time you level up you get a boost to all your stats across the board (inflating your HP, defense, attack, etc) and some hidden bonuses as well. So everything enough levels above you becomes basically unkillable while very low level enemies pose hardly any treat.
So yeah, it's a matter of implementation. But let's be real here: what system do you expect CDPR to match more closely?
Your base stats don't change across the game and your skills are what really matter most of the times.
And enemies are NOT leveled, anyway. Their threat level is defined by their stats/skills and MOSTLY by their equipment.
TW3 is a whole different beast. Every time you level up you get a boost to all your stats across the board (inflating your HP, defense, attack, etc) and some hidden bonuses as well. So everything enough levels above you becomes basically unkillable while very low level enemies pose hardly any treat.
So yeah, it's a matter of implementation. But let's be real here: what system do you expect CDPR to match more closely?
2020 has skill levels, but you don't get "lifier" as your skills level up, unlike say Skyrim.
Everyone in the setting ( everyone human) has the same damage range. Light-Serious-Critical-Mortal, with 7 stages of Mortal.
You can die as soon as you hit Mortal 0. Playing a Solo for three years won't change that, ( although cyberware and bioware will!).
You don't get better organs or whatever hitpoint levelling schemes imply.
I dunno. We'll have to see what CDPR does. They are old 2020 players but they still have an audience to cater to and -already- have SO MUCH to explain to them about his new exciting system. I wouldn't blame them for using a DnD style level system.
Now no-kill-runs and non-lethal options for most weapons? In a Cyberpunk story? No. That we disagree on.
But I digress. Bad mod.
Everyone in the setting ( everyone human) has the same damage range. Light-Serious-Critical-Mortal, with 7 stages of Mortal.
You can die as soon as you hit Mortal 0. Playing a Solo for three years won't change that, ( although cyberware and bioware will!).
You don't get better organs or whatever hitpoint levelling schemes imply.
I dunno. We'll have to see what CDPR does. They are old 2020 players but they still have an audience to cater to and -already- have SO MUCH to explain to them about his new exciting system. I wouldn't blame them for using a DnD style level system.
Now no-kill-runs and non-lethal options for most weapons? In a Cyberpunk story? No. That we disagree on.
But I digress. Bad mod.
Good post. I agree. There will (eventually) be mod support, even if only through community designed tools. But as you say, that could take a very long time. And even then, it does nothing to help the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of console players out there.Before I launch into a rant, the usual disclaimer: Still extremely excited by 75-80% of what I've seen, love love loving the freedom of both story and gameplay choice, loving the sound of perks/skills impacting dialogue, loving what I've heard about the stealth, FREAKING INFATUATED with the world itself and the thought of exploring it. Moving on.
Anyway, I've been a bit disappointed in this whole idea (topic) for a while. Not, as others have pointed out, because I have delusions of grandeur and expect CDPR to implement every goofy idea any forum user has. Longevity/"BUT I'M A TRUE FAN!" is meaningless. All that matters is what the dev team wants. Instead, I'm disappointed because I genuinely do not believe the system they are going for is in any way necessary. Bullet sponges, except where it makes sense based on cyberware (and don't try to tell me everybody in the game is going to have subdermal armor), are extremely irritating and immersion breaking for me. Level-gated gear, even more so.
To make matters worse, even if we look at it from a non mechanics-fan viewpoint, all CDPR has been willing to say on the subject of being forced to wear ugly gear based on stats is "we're keeping it in mind." Really? That's good to know, I guess, since people have been expressing their worries about that for years now and the game is 10 months from release.
I dunno. Maybe I'll be surprised.
@Sardukhar says mods may fix it, but we don't even have confirmed mod support (and some users on this very forum are aggressively against the idea), and the mods that do de-level the Witcher 3 took ages to make. I'm not interested in waiting years for some generous modder to build CDPR's modding tools for them, and then implement an awesome unlevelled progression system based on that. He would be redesigning the core of the game. Not a fair expectation.
I don't know what the solution is. Difficulty options, maybe, but that probably just makes it easier for you to die, and the enemies even more bullet spongy. There has been no word about any sort of "realism" mode, and even if there was, how the heck would that play with enemies having levels?
Much the same here.
Just like I fully understand the decision to go with FPS combat I understand why CDPR may have gone with levels. I'm just less then thrilled they're not giving us the option to play CP2077 based on CP2020's game mechanics.