HC Gwent - Archetypes & Mechanics Balance (UPDATED)

[DRK3]

So, the first week of Homecoming Gwent is over (kinda).
By now, we can have a pretty good perspective of what has changed, so we can do an analysis. I'm aware the meta (fortunately) hasnt stabilized, and players are still exploring new strategies, but this thread, or at least this initial post, isnt meant to judge if a change is good or bad, just what has been added and removed.

I'll start with Archetypes:

- = Removed
() = Remained
+ = Added

NR:
- Swarm
- Armor
() Machines
() Cursed: remained, but now a full deck based on it is even less viable than before.
+ Order/Charges: this new mechanic was given so much relevance the whole faction is built around it. And i admit i was wrong on my prediction, as it's quite viable and there's lot of players already using it with deadly results.

SC:
() Dwarves
() Handbuff: now with an Aglais killer finisher...
() Traps: the number of ambush or ambush related cards remains roughly the same.
() Spellatel: havent seen anyone using it, but there's still a card that buffs with every spell used. maybe it isnt viable anymore.

SK:
() Bearspam: now its called beastspam, but its still based on those disgusting beastmasters.
() Self-damage: its no longer GS and ships, but its a Crach archetype that isnt as OP and requires a bit more tactic, its interesting.
() Damage: Harald archetype, now with GS taking Axemen's effect, but its virtually the same.
() Discard: with the removal of most tutors, its the only archetype with enough thinning to be consistent, which might be problematic.

NG:
- Alchemy
- Old Reveal
() Spies: there are way less units based on spies, so it might not be viable anymore (havent seen anyone using it yet)
() Mill: i've been told it still exists, but with so little deck thinning, it'll probably be even less viable than before.
() Soldiers: this archetype was reduced, but now there's a complement to it, with lock units and lock mecanics, which some are soldiers too.
+ New Reveal: yeah, now way more random, revealing from deck instead of hand.
+ Tactics: a type of cards already associated with NG, now even more but still not enough for a pure tactics deck.

MO:
- Frost: with no frost tutors or frost creating units, and frost itself being nerfed...
- Fog: bye bye Dagon. And Foglets are now deathwish units.
- Moonlight
- Nekkers
- Relicts: although using ghouls to consume big units from GY its still possible as finishers.
() Deathwish/ Consume: seems almost the whole faction was converted to this archetype, my estimate is now 70% MO cards are now deathwish/ consume.
+ "less/higher units than opponent": not sure if viable for a full deck, and quite a contrast to the monsters we know, which tend to go "strength in numbers".

Post automatically merged: Oct 28, 2018

Mechanics Overview:

- Strengthen/ Weaken
- Armor: i was supposed to see it still exists in Thronebreaker, but totally removed in HC Gwent
- Moonlight
- Artefact Compression
- Silver spies (CA)
- Weather: yes, it wasnt removed, but it was nerfed to oblivion. No weather mages, weather leader, drought gone, ragnaroog now only affects 1 row, skellige storm only lasts 2 turns, bronze weathers last only 4 turns, ...
- Create Mages: those silver or gold units that gave you 3 fixed choices, being quite versatile, now gone.

+ Artefacts
+ Orders/ Charges
+ Mulligans related to Leaders
+ Thrive (exclusive to MO)
+ Bloodthirst (exclusive to SK)

That's my view, i'll be editing it according to following posts, since im sure i missed a few things or simply havent learned others yet.

I think there were some good changes, some bad ones, but i dont understand why so many mechanics and archetypes that weren't OP and were interesting were removed altogether, instead of being developed.
Also think Monsters and NR got the short end of the stick, at least in variety, with a single archetype now dominating the faction (yes, there's still variants within the archetype, but that only goes so far).

Please share your opinions.

 

[Beernchips]

SC don t have a trap archetype but they have a artifact/removal

NG mill works only vs discard SK because he thins himself good. All others decks don t thin enough to be milled even with all the NG cards that discard/use opponent cards
NG have a witcher archetype (not sure its viable)

MO also have a artifact/removal with Leshen and some immuneunits as finishers

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

I'd say NR has a buffing archetype. It might be based to some degree on Orders/Charges but uses them a bit different.
What about Soldiers from NG, they are gone, too.
And there is NG control now, even though I have seen it hardly at all.

Reach is a new mechanic. Thrive and Bloodthirst, too.

"less/higher units than opponent": not sure if viable for a full deck, and quite a contrast to the monsters we know, which tend to go "strength in numbers".

Really love that this archetype more or less exists now, as that adds a Monster aspect that was missing completly until now.

but i dont understand why so many mechanics and archetypes that weren't OP and were interesting were removed altogether, instead of being developed.

I believe to give each faction something unique and fundamental different, instead of having the same archetype in multiple factions just with slight variations like swarm (Foltest, Soldiers, Elves, MO Swarm). But currently SK control and ST control feel still too similar.

 

[DRK3]

@FG15-ISH7EG Actually, about what you said on NG: i consider the buffing thing not to be an actual archetype, since it's all based on Cahir. It has 1 bronze and 1 gold to back it up, which are crap without cahir (buffing the opponent as well)

On the other hand, the Soldiers you are right to mention them. I simply forgot them, as i had to rush to have dinner, but i'll add them to the list.

I think the soldier archetype is not exactly gone, since there are still enough soldiers to synergize with each other, but its weaker - at least in number of different bronze soldiers. Also, there's this focus on 'lock units' on NG, that is not exactly a proper archetype, its halfway there (i got a soldier/lock deck and its one of my best so far)

Post automatically merged: Oct 29, 2018

SC don t have a trap archetype but they have a artifact/removal

NG mill works only vs discard SK because he thins himself good. All others decks don t thin enough to be milled even with all the NG cards that discard/use opponent cards
NG have a witcher archetype (not sure its viable)

MO also have a artifact/removal with Leshen and some immuneunits as finishers

Im pretty sure the trap/ ambush mechanics, exclusive to SC can be considered an archetype by now: it has at least 5 different traps, 2 golds associated with traps, and a bronze that buffes with traps, that is more than SC ever did, even in closed beta.

I dont know about artefact/removal though, i will have to check SC cards better.

The NG archetypes you mention do deserve a mention, specially because they're concepts that already existed but none was improved much to be a full archetype.

And they actually share some cards, like the Viper Witcher, which atm is not working properly, as it reveals a card but puts it back on deck (happened to me when using a witcher deck - sounds good but its really bad btw - and also to my opponent today on Arena, can someone confirm this?)

 

[magusnigri]

So, the first week of Homecoming Gwent is over (kinda).
By now, we can have a pretty good perspective of what has changed, so we can do an analysis. I'm aware the meta (fortunately) hasnt stabilized, and players are still exploring new strategies, but this thread, or at least this initial post, isnt meant to judge if a change is good or bad, just what has been added and removed.

I'll start with Archetypes:

- = Removed
() = Remained
+ = Added

NR:
- Swarm
- Armor
() Machines
() Cursed: remained, but now a full deck based on it is even less viable than before.
+ Order/Charges: this new mechanic was given so much relevance the whole faction is built around it. And i admit i was wrong on my prediction, as it's quite viable and there's lot of players already using it with deadly results.

SC:
() Dwarves
() Handbuff: now with an Aglais killer finisher...
() Traps: the number of ambush or ambush related cards remains roughly the same.
() Spellatel: havent seen anyone using it, but there's still a card that buffs with every spell used. maybe it isnt viable anymore.

SK:
() Bearspam: now its called beastspam, but its still based on those disgusting beastmasters.
() Self-damage: its no longer GS and ships, but its a Crach archetype that isnt as OP and requires a bit more tactic, its interesting.
() Damage: Harald archetype, now with GS taking Axemen's effect, but its virtually the same.
() Discard: with the removal of most tutors, its the only archetype with enough thinning to be consistent, which might be problematic.

NG:
- Alchemy
- Old Reveal
() Spies: there are way less units based on spies, so it might not be viable anymore (havent seen anyone using it yet)
() Mill: i've been told it still exists, but with so little deck thinning, it'll probably be even less viable than before.
() Soldiers: this archetype was reduced, but now there's a complement to it, with lock units and lock mecanics, which some are soldiers too.
+ New Reveal: yeah, now way more random, revealing from deck instead of hand.

MO:
- Frost: with no frost tutors or frost creating units, and frost itself being nerfed...
- Fog: bye bye Dagon. And Foglets are now deathwish units.
- Moonlight
- Nekkers
- Relicts: although using ghouls to consume big units from GY its still possible as finishers.
() Deathwish/ Consume: seems almost the whole faction was converted to this archetype, my estimate is now 70% MO cards are now deathwish/ consume.
+ "less/higher units than opponent": not sure if viable for a full deck, and quite a contrast to the monsters we know, which tend to go "strength in numbers".

Post automatically merged: Oct 28, 2018

Mechanics Overview:

- Strengthen/ Weaken
- Armor: i was supposed to see it still exists in Thronebreaker, but totally removed in HC Gwent
- Moonlight
- Artefact Compression
- Silver spies (CA)
- Weather: yes, it wasnt removed, but it was nerfed to oblivion. No weather mages, weather leader, drought gone, ragnaroog now only affects 1 row, skellige storm only lasts 2 turns, bronze weathers last only 4 turns, ...
- Create Mages: those silver or gold units that gave you 3 fixed choices, being quite versatile, now gone.

+ Artefacts
+ Orders/ Charges
+ Mulligans related to Leaders
+ Thrive (exclusive to MO)
+ Bloodthirst (exclusive to SK)

That's my view, i'll be editing it according to following posts, since im sure i missed a few things or simply havent learned others yet.

I think there were some good changes, some bad ones, but i dont understand why so many mechanics and archetypes that weren't OP and were interesting were removed altogether, instead of being developed.
Also think Monsters and NR got the short end of the stick, at least in variety, with a single archetype now dominating the faction (yes, there's still variants within the archetype, but that only goes so far).

Please share your opinions.

Swarms are there. The blue stripes remain and they fill rows easly.
There is also a lot of very viable Golden Froth decks with planty of swarm, the best one is even an alchemy swarm in skelliege, so there is alchemy too, its just diferent then the NG one since it buffs instead of damaging. Also NG has the witcher archetype.

I can post my list of Skelliege Alchemy if u guys want, had a lot of sucess with it. You can also see swarm in monsters, its not as strong as the skelliege version, but its more consistant since it does not rely on order, it rely on aracnas and deathwish.

The only removed mechanics are armor, strenght (witch made the emhyr archetype of beta), and the old reveal witch is now the new reveal.
The old reveal has no place in this gwent, information here is indeed very valuable and bluff and bait have become and important aspect of the game. The old reveal just do not match with what we have now, what could be introduced are some cards that reveal the top card in the opponent deck, that is information that its not enterely consistant since the card can be redraw, so it would mantain the bluff atmosfere of the game and can add some nice and always sekeed less rng in the playing of some cards like Tibor and Imperial Golem, also might make Letho a thing, since he could turn that into precise information.

We have so many options in HC that its almost impossible to list everything, the game have become a lot more diverse and full of combinations. There is a lot of new archetypes, for instance NG now can buff enemies and steal the unit entirely or the buff. Monsters have a Fatty archetype based on big creatures and ghols witch is a beast and a free win vs Eithine. Tribes are way more developed and u can build a deck with almost any of then, doppler is an amazing card that enables it for some of then, so you have elves, dwarfs, beasts and humans.

Post automatically merged: Oct 29, 2018

@FG15-ISH7EG Actually, about what you said on NG: i consider the buffing thing not to be an actual archetype, since it's all based on Cahir. It has 1 bronze and 1 gold to back it up, which are crap without cahir (buffing the opponent as well)

Viper Witcher, which atm is not working properly, as it reveals a card but puts it back on deck (happened to me when using a witcher deck - sounds good but its really bad btw - and also to my opponent today on Arena, can someone confirm this?)

The deck does not rely solo on Cahir, it uses Master of Desguise as a finisher and the well developed ones will also be using Vattier. So it is a full archetype with a lot of cards to sinergize with. The deck works very well, it responds with locks and achieve very high power swifts when uncheked in the last round. Try this list, i'm sure u will enjoy it:

Vattier, Joachin, Aguara, Serrit, Cahir, Rainfarm, Dorregaray, Master of disguise, Treason, Auckes, 2x thunderbolt, 2x Swallow, 2x Wyvern Shield, 2x Nilfgardian Knight, 2x Alba Armored Cavalary, 1x Vicovaro Novice, 2x Recruit, 2xMagne division, the leader is calvet

The deck has so mutch redundancy and uses calvet to find the missing pieces for the combo, its very realible even without decree. Joachin is a necessity vs control because they dont put creatures on the board, try to save him for the last round and aguara when u can lock with other stuff since she can also remove locks. Save thunderbolt for the turn you deploy Cahir so he enters big and out of removal range and sometimes is wize to save one charge for vatier. The rest is self explanatory.

Almost all matches I had, ppl managed to deal with cahir and I still won. The deck does not depend on him, u have to answear both him, vattier and the master of desguise, Cachir will probably die because he enters the field to soon, but chances are that your opponent will be saving his big guns for the last 2 cards and in doing so vattier comes unchecked. Its a hard deck to play against because of the control it has and most ppl does not know how to face it.


Viper Witchers seam to work fine for me. But I did not used then mutch they are actualy preaty bad, witchers are better optimized without it.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

Actually, about what you said on NG: i consider the buffing thing not to be an actual archetype, since it's all based on Cahir. It has 1 bronze and 1 gold to back it up, which are crap without cahir (buffing the opponent as well)

Not Nilfgaard but Northern Realms with a lot of cards that profit from being buffed or having buffed allies, without being order cards themselves (Tridam Infantry, Temerian Infantry, Anna Stenger, Lyrian Scytheman,...)

 

[scorba]

traps atm are not very good... at best they're 1 for 1 cards (excep for the gold one that does damage to a row). you can't really get an advantage out of them this way. they have no chance against other archetypes. maybe in the future, with better traps in expansions.

 

[Fimbulthrym]

Scoia'tel got the "mixed Armies" with cards benefitting elf , dryards and dwarfs when played together.

 

[DRK3]

@magusnigri Swarm may still exist, like you said, on MO and SK now, but on NR it's pretty much gone.

The blue stripes commando and scout still work together... but you need to use the scout on the commando, and you need 1 turn for the scout to call one more if you dont have zeal. I havent tried it, but i heard the commando will then summon all other created commandos instead of just one - that's a bug and it should be fixed soon.

Before, NR swarm was so effective because it could easily put 6-8 units with only 3 cards (blue stripes, reaver scouts), plus 3 more with 1 card (temerian infantry, PFI), with hardly any counter. And it had Siege support and Odrin to buff big numbers. Now there's no reason to swarm with NR, MO is clearly better (and SK might be too, havent tried it)

 

[Khreygond]

NG Spies doesn't exist. They've got a grand total of one bronze spy and one spy engine. Hardly an archetype.

What does exist is a sort of "Spy - Tactic" Hybrid but it's one of the weakest decks you can ever have the misfortune to play, as interesting as it actually is (my favorite as a concept really )

 

[DRK3]

NG Spies doesn't exist. They've got a grand total of one bronze spy and one spy engine. Hardly an archetype.

What does exist is a sort of "Spy - Tactic" Hybrid but it's one of the weakest decks you can ever have the misfortune to play, as interesting as it actually is (my favorite as a concept really )

My bad, i remember seeing that bronze and assumed there were still more spy units, i wasnt a fan of the archetype but its sad to see it gone.

And the tactics deck is just another case i forgot. I noticed it back on PTR and again on day one, and wished to try it, but forgot until now. It's that weak? Shame, i did a witcher/ lock deck thinking i was being original, now all NG i see are using that, so im looking for something new (not reveal though)

(EDIT) I'll edit my original post with this info. thanks.

 

[DRK3]

(UPDATE TO FACTION ARCHETYPES)

(now without any comparison with Beta Gwent, only current state)

NR:
Revenants (Draug, Sabrina, Blue Stripes)
Charges/Machines (Foltest Pride, Aretuza Adept)
Buffs (Vysogotta, Tridam Infantry)

MO:
Deathwish (Ge'els, Harpy Egg, Rothfiend, Kayran)
Consume (Ruehin, Slyzard, Foglets)
"Big units" (Old Speartip, Weavess Incantation, ghouls, 'thrive' bronzes)
[Keltullis & Wild Hunt (focused on having fewer or higher units on board, respectively)]

SC:
Dwarves/Buffs (Gabor Zigrin, Mahakam Volunteers, Defenders)
Elf Removal (all those 3/4 damage elves, Schirru, scorch, Regis)
Artefact Removal (Spears and Sihil, Caretaker, schirru, scorch)
Movement (Ragnaroog, Dragons Dream, Nivellen)
[Ambush (all the trap cards, both Iorveth versions)]

SK:
Discard (Birna, Heymaey Skald, Skirmisher, Morkvarg, Kambi)
Self-damage (Queensguard, Shieldmaiden, Jutta, Light Longship)
Damage (Greatswords, Dagur, Delyrium OR Bloodthirst units, Wild Boar of the Sea, Wolfsbane)
Beastspam (all the beasts you can put, then bearmasters)

NG:
Reveal (Recruit, Arbalest, Triss, Yen Divination, Sweers)
Witchers (Viper Witchers, Vesemir Mentor, Witcher Trio, Ciri Dash, Letho Kingslayer)
Locks (Alba Cavalry, Auckes, Vattier, Vanhemar)
Mill (Isbel, Stregobor, Viper Witchers, Vdyffir, Tibor and Vilgefortz as finishers)
[Tactics (Coehoorn, Skellen, Fire Scorpion)]
[Soldiers (Alba Spearmen, Slave Infantry, Vrygheff, Impera Brigade)]

 

[Pruny]

i played a MO control hybrid with cyclops,foglets,spears,regis higher vampire and scorch , until i get wrecked by eithne witchers ...

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I'm not sure dedicated archetypes exist anymore. Most good decks aren't built toward one concept. They're built with multiple independent concepts. Whether those independent concepts have strong synergy depends on the deck.

As an example, big MS, big Woodlands, whatever you wish to call it, relies on Thrive, large units and GY play to replay the large units. These are three different concepts with strong synergy between them. Eithne elf control is a combination of traditional control, large removals and a bit of tempo/movement. Yeah, it's a control deck. So are the artifact versions. Crach is discard with control. NR control with Foltest is part orders, control and swarm. You can even run Foltest as control but with buff concepts concurrently (same idea as GS, aka Axemen). Reveal is reveal but you can run all kinds of concepts with it.

Most old Gwent builds ran stricter archetypes. The entire deck was built toward one purpose. I don't think HC follows this model (2 bronze change... It's why I liked/like it). So instead of focusing on strict archetypes it might be better to focus on card combos and synergy concepts. I realize this might be nitpicking semantics. I don't want to take anything away from the work done here either. I just don't want people to get lost or confused if they try to run or build everything as a strict archetype and find it works poorly.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

I'm not sure dedicated archetypes exist anymore. Most good decks aren't built toward one concept. They're built with multiple independent concepts. Whether those independent concepts have strong synergy depends on the deck.

As an example, big MS, big Woodlands, whatever you wish to call it, relies on Thrive, large units and GY play to replay the large units. These are three different concepts with strong synergy between them. Eithne elf control is a combination of traditional control, large removals and a bit of tempo/movement. Yeah, it's a control deck. So are the artifact versions. Crach is discard with control. NR control with Foltest is part orders, control and swarm. You can even run Foltest as control but with buff concepts concurrently (same idea as GS, aka Axemen). Reveal is reveal but you can run all kinds of concepts with it.

Most old Gwent builds ran stricter archetypes. The entire deck was built toward one purpose. I don't think HC follows this model (2 bronze change... It's why I liked/like it). So instead of focusing on strict archetypes it might be better to focus on card combos and synergy concepts. I realize this might be nitpicking semantics. I don't want to take anything away from the work done here either. I just don't want people to get lost or confused if they try to run or build everything as a strict archetype and find it works poorly.

I don't get this at all. Everyone was asking for strong archetypes to give faction identity. CDPR appeared to agree and mentioned it in the homecoming letter. So why did they make archetypes less clear?

 

[DRK3]

I'm not sure dedicated archetypes exist anymore. Most good decks aren't built toward one concept. They're built with multiple independent concepts. Whether those independent concepts have strong synergy depends on the deck.

As an example, big MS, big Woodlands, whatever you wish to call it, relies on Thrive, large units and GY play to replay the large units. These are three different concepts with strong synergy between them. Eithne elf control is a combination of traditional control, large removals and a bit of tempo/movement. Yeah, it's a control deck. So are the artifact versions. Crach is discard with control. NR control with Foltest is part orders, control and swarm. You can even run Foltest as control but with buff concepts concurrently (same idea as GS, aka Axemen). Reveal is reveal but you can run all kinds of concepts with it.

Most old Gwent builds ran stricter archetypes. The entire deck was built toward one purpose. I don't think HC follows this model (2 bronze change... It's why I liked/like it). So instead of focusing on strict archetypes it might be better to focus on card combos and synergy concepts. I realize this might be nitpicking semantics. I don't want to take anything away from the work done here either. I just don't want people to get lost or confused if they try to run or build everything as a strict archetype and find it works poorly.

Archetypes are less of a thing now, agreed. I just tried to organize these archetypes by faction, now less defined but still existing.

Also, im glad you pointed it out - i didnt mean to suggest using these "pure", focused archetypes is better than mixing varied combos, with 2 bronzes and barely any tutors, they're way less reliable to work (as in, to actually get all the cards you needed), so sometimes the surprise factor can be more beneficial than a potential synergy.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I don't get this at all. Everyone was asking for strong archetypes to give faction identity. CDPR appeared to agree and mentioned it in the homecoming letter. So why did they make archetypes less clear?

Define everyone.

Archetypes were always clear because old Gwent revolved around bronze cards. Throw three copies of three or four bronze cards in, slap some golds with synergy down and you have a deck. This is not the case in HC because you cannot rely on 3 bronzes to ensure the deck works.

In a perfect world the old Gwent concept works. If cards are perfectly balanced it works. Neither exists. There is quite a bit I don't like about HC. The 2 bronze copies and move away from strict archetypes is one of the few areas I think improved the game. For many reasons. Getting into specifics is a much longer discussion. I'd rather not do so here. It gets away from the purpose of the thread.

Archetypes are less of a thing now, agreed. I just tried to organize these archetypes by faction, now less defined but still existing.

Also, im glad you pointed it out - i didnt mean to suggest using these "pure", focused archetypes is better than mixing varied combos, with 2 bronzes and barely any tutors, they're way less reliable to work (as in, to actually get all the cards you needed), so sometimes the surprise factor can be more beneficial than a potential synergy.

Yeah.. Again, not taking away from the work. It's a valuable resource. Just tossing out a thought.