Let's complain about things that aren't parroted in the media

[exxxed]

Personally I do think TW3 did a better job of keeping contracts in a place where the player knew and understood and helped reduce map clutter.

As far as I recall TW3 had the map just as cluttered, the few quests only available through the notice boards didn't even make a tiny dent in the clutter aspect.

Sure it made more sense to take the quests off the notice board, that worked in TW3, pretty much as well as getting contacted by the fixers in CP2077, the difference is that the markers are available on the map in the latter whether or not the fixers get in touch with V, which is simply stupid to put it bluntly.

 

[SteelDragon2050]

Personally I do think TW3 did a better job of keeping contracts in a place where the player knew and understood and helped reduce map clutter.

There's so many idea's floating around for how they could have done the gigs and hustles, even if it was just V using her/his computer in thier apartment which would then populate more locations to visit.

I think even just removing the markers on the map would help a lot. So when a player got near them, perhaps within a block, then the markers show up, so the player then heads towards them, thus more exploring.

I think the Street Cred system could have even been tied into it more so, ie, if you annoy one group then less gigs/hustles are available to do for that specific group. Or if your Cred is so high, you get more contracts, bounties ect since people know you and want you.

But your right, a missed opportunity.

Post automatically merged: Jan 7, 2022

Other games on the same hardware have done it better.

Look at RDR2 for example. Sure markers are on the map, but its not every single marker, every single random encounter since they would no longer be random then. RDR2 has NPC's call out to the player, or there are interesting things happening that invites the player to come over and look.

Yes the hardware was an issue, but other older games have managed, so I do not think the hardware was the key issue, more like running out of development time. And that can only be due to the management.

This isn't RDR2, and these aren't random events.

 

[GrimReaper801]

As far as I recall TW3 had the map just as cluttered, the few quests only available through the notice boards didn't even make a tiny dent in the clutter aspect.

Sure it made more sense to take the quests off the notice board, that worked in TW3, pretty much as well as getting contacted by the fixers in CP2077, the difference is that the markers are available on the map in the latter whether or not the fixers get in touch with V, which is simply stupid to put it bluntly.

Exactly, this weird prescient knowledge of events or "area of interest" was present in TW3 as much as it is in CP2077. Boards surely held one or two extra ones but they were but drops in the ocean.

V shouldn't be aware of those right out the box. It's, as you've put it, stupid. Discovering all possible gigs through fixers, contacts, texts, shards or simply stumbling upon them would make for a much more immersive experience. Dropping all these icons all at once feels like it's a chore you have to do, which is a shame because many of them are very well written and well thought out side missions.

Linking it to street cred would've given a lot of life to one of the more poorly implemented systems too. Your fixer will only get in touch with you about X gig once you reach Y level in street cred. Perhaps they even mention quickly "hey, I see you've made a name for yourself - I can now trust you with this" and you get extra gigs. Instead, they just appear out of thin air on your map. It's a cheap and unimaginative way of doing things.

 

[BigWezz69]

This isn't RDR2, and these aren't random events.

.. well yeah I know that. I was using it as an example since RDR2 also launched on the PS4 (and worked), and its random events are better than the CP77's way of telling the player where to go for everything, thus littering the map.


This is a nice clean map. And the player is taught very early on that things will show up as they adventure around, so even though it looks empty, there's things to be found.

This is a littered map.

Over half of those pips and markers could be removed and only shown as the player is near by, thus encouraging exploration. What makes this even worse is that this is the default view. Yes you can toggle things on and off, but seeing this straight out of the gate I was shocked, as it looks congested and its a "go here, now go there, then go here" over "go explore and see what you find".

Post automatically merged: Jan 7, 2022

As far as I recall TW3 had the map just as cluttered, the few quests only available through the notice boards didn't even make a tiny dent in the clutter aspect.

Sure it made more sense to take the quests off the notice board, that worked in TW3, pretty much as well as getting contacted by the fixers in CP2077, the difference is that the markers are available on the map in the latter whether or not the fixers get in touch with V, which is simply stupid to put it bluntly.

I had to google it as I cba to reinstall TW3 to check, but this is what I remember the map looking like.

Your right, its cluttered, but as cluttered as CP77? I'm not sure. Even folding a few quests away into notice boards still helps imo.

V's phone with every fixer trying to get them to do missions and buy cars none stop .. man that annoyed me. How do they all know V, shouldn't V not do a meet and greet?

CDPR definitely could have done things better, even with the fixers. Why not have a few of them hang out at the Afterlife and that's where V goes for work/jobs/missions ect? That would have made the Afterlife feel like a second home.

 

[SteelDragon2050]

@BigWezz69
You act like word just doesn't get around. Between the job we did for Wakako, and being looked at for work by Dex, one of the biggest fixers in the city, word was probably out we were a solid merc on the rise. A little digging, or a few eddies to the right people, and it's easy to see how they get our number.

 

[GrimReaper801]

I had to google it as I cba to reinstall TW3 to check, but this is what I remember the map looking like.

View attachment 11272846

Your right, its cluttered, but as cluttered as CP77? I'm not sure. Even folding a few quests away into notice boards still helps imo.

V's phone with every fixer trying to get them to do missions and buy cars none stop .. man that annoyed me. How do they all know V, shouldn't V not do a meet and greet?

CDPR definitely could have done things better, even with the fixers. Why not have a few of them hang out at the Afterlife and that's where V goes for work/jobs/missions ect? That would have made the Afterlife feel like a second home.

I'd argue that TW3's map feels less cluttered because it is bigger and things are more spaced out. It has a lot more empty areas as one would expect from a medieval setting. Kind of like the badlands in CP2077 aren't nearly as cluttered as the city. As far as pure icon numbers, I'm pretty certain they're damn close to one another in terms of total icon numbers.

Yet, even in TW3, it's completely absurd that Geralt knows straight away where all these areas of interests are. Sure, it's a "?" until you get close but you shouldn't even be aware that there is "something" there until you are told about it through one mean or another.

It leads to the whole thing feeling like a chore you have to accomplish and removes all sense of discovery and exploration.

 

[exxxed]

I had to google it as I cba to reinstall TW3 to check, but this is what I remember the map looking like.

View attachment 11272846

Your right, its cluttered, but as cluttered as CP77? I'm not sure. Even folding a few quests away into notice boards still helps imo.

V's phone with every fixer trying to get them to do missions and buy cars none stop .. man that annoyed me. How do they all know V, shouldn't V not do a meet and greet?

CDPR definitely could have done things better, even with the fixers. Why not have a few of them hang out at the Afterlife and that's where V goes for work/jobs/missions ect? That would have made the Afterlife feel like a second home.

This is how I remember TW3 map, and as well I cannot be arsed to reinstall at the moment.

Sure, it's definitely not as cluttered by a long shot compared to CP2077, it's not even a contest here.

But it just shows CDPR's design philosophy when it comes to open world design.

 

[SteelDragon2050]

At least it's a truly open world. Witcher 3 isn't. I can't ride from Kaer Morhen to Toussaint, for example. Cyberpunk i can drive anywhere i please.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

This is a nice clean map. And the player is taught very early on that things will show up as they adventure around, so even though it looks empty, there's things to be found.

It's funny as example, because if I remember, in this case on RDR2, there is "only" the quests on the maps who are available (so nothing to do where there isn't icon... or maybe hunting or random repeatable/useless events...) So yes, the map is clean, but the available quests also are too
For example, on this map, if you go wandering all around Strawberry, there is no chance to find/launch/trigger a quest, there is simply nothing available there.

For Cyberpunk, yes It's dense (icons are big and yellow), but not sure there is "more" on the map (scale/icon's number).
A good way to display would may be as Bethesda did in Skyrim or Fallout, only appaear (unlocked) on the map when you are close enough (when you discover them).

 

[CS554]

What I liked to complain about...

Silenced submachine guns appear to be useless with Problem Solver and Fenrir (iconic M221 Saratoga's) being exceptions. Sure any submachine guns is lethal even silenced, it's just that silencing them doesn't achieve anything in game play terms but reduced damage.

 

[Garrison72]

For some reason TW3 didn't feel bloated to me, and organically exploring the map with markers turned off worked great. Content was properly spaced and cohesive as the map opened up. 2077 on the other hand feels ...empty. There's lots of stuff there but the world doesn't react and everything is cordoned off. It doesn't feel bustling and alive like a big city should. Without a doubt they need randomized encounters, but I also think that exploring a mostly horizontal countryside is a vastly different design problem than exploring in a vertical mega-city. And CDPR really missed the mark on this despite claiming many times they're aware of the difference. They even had a dedicated 'open world' team, unlike TW3 . Yet it's just worse by every metric.

 

[BigWezz69]

It's funny as example, because if I remember, in this case on RDR2, there is "only" the quests on the maps who are available (so nothing to do where there isn't icon... or maybe hunting or random repeatable/useless events...) So yes, the map is clean, but the available quests also are too

Well excepts for random encounters, sight seeing, finding world building lore such as tracing a serial killer, watching NPC's actually behave like human beings, listen in on their conversations, drink, gamble, hunt/fish, ect

These are not on the map true, but they are there for the player to find. If it was done like CDPR, the map would look as littered as CP77's.

For Cyberpunk, yes It's dense (icons are big and yellow), but not sure there is "more" on the map (scale/icon's number).

When I first played the game, it felt like the map made my eyes bleed to how many things were on it. It actually looked like a chore-fest rather than cool things to do.

A good way to display would may be as Bethesda did in Skyrim or Fallout, only appaear (unlocked) on the map when you are close enough (when you discover them).

Agreed.

Post automatically merged: Jan 7, 2022

This is how I remember TW3 map, and as well I cannot be arsed to reinstall at the moment.

Sure, it's definitely not as cluttered by a long shot compared to CP2077, it's not even a contest here.

But it just shows CDPR's design philosophy when it comes to open world design.

As another said, I think what helps is that they are more spaced out. But it too is cluttered, definitely something CDPR need to work on.

 

[MartineDee]

My priority list? But a realistic one?

I wanna be able to order a Jackie Welles drink on a regular day, without waiting until the very ending.
I wanna have more up to scale car mechanics, iow displayed unit should really be mph (or km/h) in the world's units.
I wanna roam the rails without worrying about invisible obstacles meant to make them unwalkable.

 

[BigWezz69]

@BigWezz69
You act like word just doesn't get around. Between the job we did for Wakako, and being looked at for work by Dex, one of the biggest fixers in the city, word was probably out we were a solid merc on the rise. A little digging, or a few eddies to the right people, and it's easy to see how they get our number.

V is a merc who, from the outside, blew a job, got her/his friend killed, got their fixer killed, killed Saburo Arasaka (since that's why Takemura was initially hunting V). Who would want to even work with someone like that??

On top of that, it was V's first major job and it went bad, real bad. That does not sound like a good Curriculum vitae

V should have been working their way back up, and that's how CDPR could have tied in the Street Cred system.

In fact, imo, it would have been a better story overall if V and Jackie were together longer, ie playing that 6 month montage, building their Street Cred up, getting good at the job, getting their name about. Then Dex comes along, and it all goes bad. From there, V would then have to attempt to convince the fixers that they are still good to work, rebuild their Street Cred and still attempt to find a cure.

Heck, perhaps Street Cred could have played into that too. Perhaps V needed to raise through the ranks to finally get to Mr. Blue Eyes who might just know a way to help V ..

But anyway, there are better ways of doing it, and littering the map is not the way to do it imo.

 

[SteelDragon2050]

If anyone blew the job, it was Dex. Circumstances were out of V's hands. Besides, most fixers probably have enough sense to take the word of Arasaka with a few grains of salt. Wakako flat out states she's no friend to Arasaka, but from experience, knows V can get the job done, so would give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[BigWezz69]

If anyone blew the job, it was Dex. Circumstances were out of V's hands.

Yeah because everyone would omnisciently know that. From the outside and from what the news media span, and what Arasaka said, I think its reasonable that many would think that V blew the job.

Besides, most fixers probably have enough sense to take the word of Arasaka with a few grains of salt. Wakako flat out states she's no friend to Arasaka, but from experience, knows V can get the job done, so would give him the benefit of the doubt.

Not not about what Arasaka might say, its about the heat that comes with V. In the game Arasaka just stops perusing V .. for some odd reason. But in reality, they would still be hunting V, probably with a vengeance too. So here is a merc who might have blown a large job, their fixer ended up dead, and the have serious heat from Arasaka, the largest (or one of) corporation in NC. Sure sign her/him up

 

[LeKill3rFou]

What I liked to complain about...

Silenced submachine guns appear to be useless with Problem Solver and Fenrir (iconic M221 Saratoga's) being exceptions. Sure any submachine guns is lethal even silenced, it's just that silencing them doesn't achieve anything in game play terms but reduced damage.

All can be useful, but the better one (most powerfull) are "better" than any other
A legendary DS1 pulsar also work well. The same for the Arasaka Shigure who could to the job nicely but not available in legendary.

 

[CokyRustler]

Personally, I found this more disappointing than AI or physics. With those things, I can understand: maybe people working on it ran out of time, or were just too inexperienced for the job.
But CDPR's approach to how they integrate and allow player to interact and discover content in an open world game feels very outdated, "lazy", and uninspired.
They seem to miss the whole point: it's about the sense of adventure, mystery, feeling like you're a "stranger in a strange land", and giving the player enough freedom and agency feel like s/he in a control of this journey.
That is one thing that Bethesda understands really well and is a key reason for massive popularity of their games: after the tutorial dungeon section, you always land on a vista, whole world is in front of you...and then you're free to discover things on your own.
Levelled loot/enemies makes exploration restrictive and linear, fixers constantly calling player strips game of sense of agency, immersion and discovery, and main story very early pushes false sense of urgency: CDPR seems to hate entire reason people play open world games to begin with.
Since 2015, video games have moved forward in direction of more "hollistic", immersive design ( large influence came from Souls series), and even very popular mainstream games like Zelda or RDR II, are designed this way without suffering negative impact on sales. Even Ubisoft, Grandmother of UI clutter And Handholding, have moved in this direction.
CDPR, unfortunately decided to stay behind, and despite some improvements, feels far more outdated than Witcher III was ( in 2015).
There are so many things that could have been done better.
Imagine how much better, and more popular ( in retention of player base), the game would be if open world was designed this way:
- After lifepath prologue, you meet Jackie in Tom's diner, and two of you, lowly mercs with no repution and in need of eddies, try to look for work
- World map is fully cleared/"clean": your only points of interests are places like prominent nightclubs, Afterlife, etc
- Two of you first go and visit Afterlife: but you're thrown out. Then visit Regina: but she refuses to hire you ( as she's never heard of you), but points you to a few lowly fixers, like Kirk, for some small time work
- You can also visit a few other places that offer some work and act as "quest hubs": journalist agency ( detective style quests, with focus on uncovering crimes), local netrunner group ( heavily focused on hacking), black market/"thief guild" ( stealth and crime), local NCPD branch ( doing some "off the record" work for cops), etc. Later on, as you gain more rep, you can join Max Tac, rockerboy band or Trauma Team.
- You can visit those places to receive handcrafted quests, or can access random/repetitive side activities through your phone( for example: by tuning into NCPD frequency, the game will notify you of nearby crime activities).
- This would give the player much more "immersive"/sense of control of accessing content and better pacing with quests
- You also receive unique rewards by progressing through quests and increasing reputation with your guild: unique cyberware, gear, perks
- For fixers, first you need to visit them, introduce yourself, and after doing a few smaller/easier jobs and proving yourself, you can ask them ( on phone or in person) for specific types of missions ( hitman, stealth, etc)
- And no levelled loot/enemies means almost entire game world is fully accessible post prologue: difficulty is more a combination of player perks, gear and cyberware vs. enemy stats/weaknesses and abilities ( instead of extremely simplified level vs. level). Some enemies ( corporates, or Animals, Voodoo boys) are tougher than others, but you can hugely adapt to this with specific type of cyberware and weapons

 

[Feline_Witcher]

Definitely sounds like a Pisces!

I don't know shit about astrology but Pisces sound like cool people, if Judy is indeed one

 

[backtron]

V not saying anything when you press F to talk with NPCs, but them replying. Could pop something like minimal "Hi / how are you / bye / Piss off " choice.