sure they can. They could make a white V drop N bombs left and right.
None of this insulates them from critique. They can do whatever they want, and we are allowed to critique it.
None of this insulates them from critique. They can do whatever they want, and we are allowed to critique it.
Well i guess the point went over your head. Can't even talk generally and not have people assume something, i didn't say or allude to.
But FYI to you, CD doesn't live in a cave system. They'll ask about feedback about this and other things from appropriate parties and from people at conventions that they show game footage to. So while yes (as i stated before) CD can make the game their way, it's still in their best interest to figure out. How to handle these sort of things without the need for potential heavy handed identi-fiers. Because again as it's been said, they haven't tackled this sort of City wide -cali influenced- diversity and VO work.
So no in that sense they can't make their characters speak however they want, just like they wouldn't allow for Geralt to sound like Dolly parsons, for example.
Even though they could, doesn't mean they should and can be questioned. If they try to portray elements from different ethic groups in a monolithic way, regardless of the year the game takes place. Doesn't mean they censor themselves, just have the characterization reflect all the research and common sense takes over after that. All of which is apart of the process that most sensible creatives go through, when creating something.
So asking that CD be a bit more self-aware about certain things, isn't telling them what to do. It's just advice.
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to take this thread in a different direction, but on the same subject.
what would some of you consider good examples of a latino character that doesn't feel stereotypical?
just thinking highlighting positives instead of negatives can shed more light on it.
what would some of you consider good examples of a latino character that doesn't feel stereotypical?
just thinking highlighting positives instead of negatives can shed more light on it.
i honestly cant think of any from gaming outside of Just Cause or fighting game characters, which, well, says a lot. but for movies i'd point to, say, Michael Pena's work in End of Watch or Benicio Del Toro's work in Sicario, for some recent examples. obviously they're latino in real life, but im more looking at the writing for the characters, it builds around their identities without making it ABOUT them being latino.
And Just Cause obviousl.
some great examples, i love both those actors.
Ive also seen both movies, the original sicario was great looking forward to the 2nd.
Pena's character in end of watch while well portrayed, he mainly talks about being mexican and didn't really sound like that.
which is fine for the movie, as it fits in the world of that story.
im just wondering how you strike that balance if you want to give a character an accent, or give him closer ties to the country of his birth.
Del toro in sicario, is probably a closer character to what CDPR is trying to do with Jackie.
Both kick ass, speak english and as jackie does in the E3 demo, del toro also uses some spanish when he feels the need.
As he guns down a target, he says 'adios' as he shoots him.
Its a cool moment and doesn't detract from the character imo, maybe because we have seen more about del toros character it doesnt carry as much weight as the E3 demo when thats all we've seen of Jackie so far.
i guess what im asking is where is the line, where its ok for a character to show visual cues or other characteristics that they are latino? accent, language, clothing etc
surely sounding and talking like the average person in USA/UK isn't what makes a character less of a sterotype?
I think it depends on a character's motivations for using their own native language (which we can only guess at). For example, take swearing, which is somewhat similarly used in speech for effect, and can be used for many different reasons.
It could be used for "peer and social bonding - swearing can serve to show that we belong in a certain group, or that we are able to be ourselves and be wholly comfortable with the members of that group. If done correctly, it can also signal that we are open, honest, self-deprecating, easygoing, and barrels of fun."
On the other hand, swearing could be used for "pain relief — Swearing activates the "fight or flight" response, leading to a surge of adrenaline and corresponding analgesic effect. Richard Stephens of Keele University found that people who swear are able to hold their hands in ice-water for twice as long. But this only held for people who swear a few times a day, not "chain-swearers." Presumably chain-swearers are desensitized to their swearing, and so are not particularly aroused by it. It remains unclear whether some swear words are more effective than others. But it seems very likely."
Source: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/hell-yes-the-7-best-reasons-swearing
So, I would say that ideally a character's language should reflect their individual motivations as a character, but too much of swearing (chain-swearing) or use of other language might seem forced, unnatural, or just habitual, losing it's 'strength' to the listener, or running the risk of sounding stereotypical.
It could be used for "peer and social bonding - swearing can serve to show that we belong in a certain group, or that we are able to be ourselves and be wholly comfortable with the members of that group. If done correctly, it can also signal that we are open, honest, self-deprecating, easygoing, and barrels of fun."
On the other hand, swearing could be used for "pain relief — Swearing activates the "fight or flight" response, leading to a surge of adrenaline and corresponding analgesic effect. Richard Stephens of Keele University found that people who swear are able to hold their hands in ice-water for twice as long. But this only held for people who swear a few times a day, not "chain-swearers." Presumably chain-swearers are desensitized to their swearing, and so are not particularly aroused by it. It remains unclear whether some swear words are more effective than others. But it seems very likely."
Source: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/hell-yes-the-7-best-reasons-swearing
So, I would say that ideally a character's language should reflect their individual motivations as a character, but too much of swearing (chain-swearing) or use of other language might seem forced, unnatural, or just habitual, losing it's 'strength' to the listener, or running the risk of sounding stereotypical.
Alright then, elaborate on your point since I apparently missed it. It looked to me like you were saying CDPR needs to carefully consider how a person from a specific culture would believably speak and avoid force feeding stereotypes into the mouths of it's players.
Here is the problem.... Define believable in this context? Would it be more believable if the character in question spoke exclusively in English or Mandarin? Or would we just find something else to nitpick, and arbitrarily decide the accent was too convincing?
The entire discussion went from concerns about certain voice acting and dialog being cheesy and lacking depth to being about stereotypes in entertainment. It's quite clear from many of the comments steering it this way it was done deliberately.
You want to know a secret? Part of the problem with stereotypes is trying to shove people of certain religious views, cultural backgrounds, skin colors, or any other defining characteristic into a neat little category.
I must agree. CDPR would allay my concerns about this if they simply announced that Mike Pondsmith will voice the male V. Not only does he posses a compelling voice, but no one else on the planet can get inside the minds of these characters better than author himself.
you think?
I mean, that's EXACTLY why some of us were concerned in the first place. How can you understand this and not connect the two ideas?
no one's accusing them of doing anything wrong on purpose. I think if he DOES end up being a caricature (we wont know til later), it will be 100% unintentional.
Hmm, I'm not sure you understood my meaning. Latino person, Black person, White person, Asian person.... We could just as easily dispense with everything in front of person and reduce it to, yep, person. The mere act of creating these labels perpetuates the problem in itself, is what I am getting at. This is not to say one should not attempt to better understand the culture or heritage of a specific person and, regardless of the degree of this understanding, make an active attempt to respect it. The simple truth of the matter is you do not need to create labels or categories to achieve this goal.
In any case we are talking about a game here. There is certainly a valid case to be made for avoiding stereotypes and generalizations. Discussing it on a game forum, much like politics, religion or a number of other "sensitive" topics, is dangerous territory. Not because the discussion has no merit. Quite the contrary. It's because people are... passionate creatures
. This is probably why the mods insinuated the discussion should move back toward the quality of the dialogue itself, and away from this particular aspect of it. Perhaps it's my own views clouding my perspective. I know I'd personally never sit there and think twice about a character in a video game with a certain appearance speaking in English and throwing Spanish profanities into the sentence. I would not sit there and say, yeah, this must be a Latino person. The appearance and speaking pattern would have literally zero relevance on how I would view that character. Just as it would have zero relevance on how I view actual people. If someone sees it differently you're probably not going to change their mind, sadly.
And if it was a black V dropping N bombs, it would be all right, and you wouldn't critique it?!
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if the world worked that way, i'd agree with you, but it doesn't. The labels exist, and they aren't going anywhere so its really foolish and naive to just ignore it.
depends on how they did it and wrote the character. if he was just dropping it randomly just to do it, yeah, that would be stupid.And if it was a black V dropping N bombs, it would be all right, and you wouldn't critique it?!
my post about that was more about how ridiculous the "CD Projekt can write things however they want to" statement was. sure, they can do that, but it doesn't mean it wont end up really poorly.
Obviously, CDPR needs to reach out to some MS13 gang members and some crips and bloods ,all from California, and make this truly authentic. And of course they need to be paid at the same union rates as screen actors guild members,etc,etc.... /s
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Maybe we should wait till we hear dialog interaction in the game before getting too in depth on this. I mean, from official gameplay of course.