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Monsters seem a bit overpowered right now...

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#1
Just their finishers, consuming from grave on deploy generates too big of a swing with no counterplay other than hoping you end up with card advantage so you go last.

Might be a problem with deploy finishers being too strong in general.
 

kAiSeR007

User
#3
It is strong, but since the current meta is SK Beasts, MO consume or big mons, ST boost; Regis, Yrden are getting inmense value now.
 
#5
Honestly, it really isn't. There are so many cards you can put into your deck to completely wreck large units and boosted units. Run enough of these and large MS decks can face real problems. Granted, this isn't the only viable MS strategy or leader. Nothing prohibits the big MS player from adjusting their approach around these cards either (you basically have to do so... case and point, NR is a pretty tough MU for big MS IMO).

If you're claiming big MS is hard to stop if it gets last say I'd agree. The same could be said for most decks though.
 
#6
Honestly, it really isn't. There are so many cards you can put into your deck to completely wreck large units and boosted units. Run enough of these and large MS decks can face real problems. Granted, this isn't the only viable MS strategy or leader. Nothing prohibits the big MS player from adjusting their approach around these cards either (you basically have to do so... case and point, NR is a pretty tough MU for big MS IMO).

If you're claiming big MS is hard to stop if it gets last say I'd agree. The same could be said for most decks though.

There's no counter if you have to pass before the opponent.
 
#7
There's no counter if you have to pass before the opponent.
If you're claiming big MS is hard to stop if it gets last say I'd agree. The same could be said for most decks though.

Odds are the high end for a single card with last say for big MS is 23 pts off an Ozzrel consume on Speartip with Woodlands on top. So you cannot counter a single GY consume without last say.

I'd point out this isn't completely accurate either. Black Blood, Blue Dream, Xavier and Cahir immediately come to mind. I'm sure there are others.
 
#9
The fact that you should tech against one deck shows how strong that deck is.
Maybe true. Many of these "tech" cards aren't necessarily terrible against other decks though. Xavier might be. Which is probably why nobody runs it. It's not like Xavier was a good card against anything except like two decks before it was nerfed either. So nothing changed there.

All of these tech cards can find value against any type of buff deck. Many of them can find value against any common deck floating around right now. You don't really have to hard tech big MS to beat it either. NR sure as hell doesn't. NG has plenty of good cards against it that work just fine in general. SK and Scoia both have ways to handle it. In the first case I wouldn't call it unreasonable for the golden child faction to be forced into going the extra mile to beat other strong decks. In the second case it's not unusual for the red headed step child faction to have to go the extra mile. ST players are used to it. Not counting the few instances where it's been viewed as a top echelon faction anyway.

I know certain outdated meta snapshots glorified as gospel rate big MS as an amazing, high tier deck. I just don't see it. Not as playing with it or from facing it. It may be decent. It's by no means unbeatable.
 

Esmer

User
#10
I know certain outdated meta snapshots glorified as gospel rate big MS as an amazing, high tier deck. I just don't see it. Not as playing with it or from facing it. It may be decent. It's by no means unbeatable.
Who says it's unbeatable? It's just too strong considering the simplicity of its strategy and the fact you have to tech against it.
 

jgolden234

User
#11
Who says it's unbeatable? It's just too strong considering the simplicity of its strategy and the fact you have to tech against it.
Oh the point slam of open beta I do not miss you. We have only one deck that really does it right now, so I supposed that is a step in the right direction, but that's why it is an issues; it has insane temporary in any round. It can win a card down too if you don't draw your answers. Personally I find foltest to be more of a challenge at the moment, but that is just me.
 

kAiSeR007

User
#12
Foltest is too strong, Big monsters is too strong, Schirru is too strong, Skelligue is too strong, RNG is too strong, I don't get the cards I want when I need them. Please, next time just post your deck, and ask for a buff to all your win cons, and a nerf for all their counters, we will finish faster.
 
#13
Who says it's unbeatable? It's just too strong considering the simplicity of its strategy and the fact you have to tech against it.
You don't have to tech against it to beat it but it helps to have cards good against it. Teching against it also isn't a big deal considering cards that can stop it are also good against other decks.
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Oh the point slam of open beta I do not miss you. We have only one deck that really does it right now, so I supposed that is a step in the right direction, but that's why it is an issues; it has insane temporary in any round. It can win a card down too if you don't draw your answers. Personally I find foltest to be more of a challenge at the moment, but that is just me.
You really think the removal meta is more interesting? I sure don't.
 

kAiSeR007

User
#14
I'd point out this isn't completely accurate either. Black Blood, Blue Dream, Xavier and Cahir immediately come to mind. I'm sure there are others.
I play Big Monsters, well at least this season for the 40s. Got up to 2465 with 40ish matches, tried to go for the 2500ish. Chained a loss streak of 10: 4 Usurper in blue coin (me) with Regis, or Yrden or Peter; rest of them Regis, and Yrden mostly and one Schirru. Never chained such a loss streak, but well, it is possible, people equip specific cards to beat the meta, and if the meta right now is boosted cards, then you have to deal with it. I'm not complaining, just saying that the speach people says about this is too strong, nerf nerf nerf, is just the perfect image of people not playing the correct decks at the correct moment.

loss streak.png
 
#15
Foltest is too strong, Big monsters is too strong, Schirru is too strong, Skelligue is too strong, RNG is too strong, I don't get the cards I want when I need them. Please, next time just post your deck, and ask for a buff to all your win cons, and a nerf for all their counters, we will finish faster.
lol, guess who didn't read the opening post?

Finishers on deploy cards when going last are too strong and every archetype has them. Monsters just happen to have the most obnoxious 1 card finishers.

ST gets complaints because of 2 reasons. 1 Artifacts are a little broken atm with there not being enough cards to remove Artifact spam without building a bad "no artifacts for you" deck.

Other reason why is because Sihil is overpowered when you can play it 4 times in a match.

I don't know why people think Foltest is overpowered though. He basicslly gets 3 free zeals then the deck starts sucking.
 
#16
Who says it's unbeatable? It's just too strong considering the simplicity of its strategy and the fact you have to tech against it.
That is just it. I don't think it's too strong. Evidently you disagree.

Finishers on deploy cards when going last are too strong and every archetype has them. Monsters just happen to have the most obnoxious 1 card finishers.
Finishers in general are too strong. On that point we agree. Incidentally.... coin flip....

It's not isolated to MS. I don't even think MS is worse in this regard compared to everything else either. Last say is too important across the board.
 
#18
So did anyone bother to calculate how much value on average you get from this deck? I believe Tall MO is currently way over the top.
I understand that tall MO has it's weaknesses and you can counter play but there are 2 issues with that.
1) You HAVE to counter play or you simply can't reach them point wise. You can't simply let them grow while you unveil your strategy because they will always be bigger than you.
2) You need to have the luck to DRAW the counter. I have Yrden and Berrek's in my deck. There are still matches that I don't draw either of them from my deck vs Tall MO.

Let's count how many high tempo plays tall MO has? I believe anything >8 falls in this category.
Old speartip, golyat, speartip:asleep, weavess:incantation, 3 ghouls (counting the ranged guy here too), woodland spirit ability....the list goes on. Throw in witchers+roach or the 2 wild hunt riders (with the super easy deploy ability), and you can consistently play ONLY high tempo cards + pretty good thinning value too. With riders/witchers/roach/weavess you thin 5 cards! Better than some SK decks.
Also don't even dare lose round one or risk facing 3+ 12point plays in a short round 2 and gl beating that!
But surely such good tall cards means they probably have crappy bronzes? Nope.
Archespore - one of the best bronzes in the game. Drowner - double removal (damage +movement) and thrive. 3 immune units, not counting eredin here. Insane value for provision cost.

So when is this deck going to be brought down to earth where the rest of the decks are?
 
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#19
So did anyone bother to calculate how much value on average you get from this deck? I believe Tall MO is currently way over the top.
The short answer is the big units provide value under the provision cost and the GY consumes and cards like Incantation offset the loss by earning it back. Thrives are the wild card, gaining additional value via the bigger units.

In the event thrives get shut down and big units get destroyed or reset the value you get off this approach is not impressive. Which is why some of the popular NR decks can straight up wreck tall MS builds. They can kill thrives. They can kill big units. Depending on build, they can put up impressive positive numbers themselves.

1) You HAVE to counter play or you simply can't reach them point wise. You can't simply let them grow while you unveil your strategy because they will always be bigger than you.
I'd dispute this claim. There are quite a number of cards capable of 8+ positive value in a single card play. Many of them can exceed anything tall MS can put up points-wise, barring Woodlands getting used, at a lower provision cost. The difference is most of them require setup. Most of the big tempo plays available to tall MS do not.

2) You need to have the luck to DRAW the counter. I have Yrden and Berrek's in my deck. There are still matches that I don't draw either of them from my deck vs Tall MO.
Doesn't this apply to everything where failing to draw a counter leads to trouble?

Let's count how many high tempo plays tall MO has? I believe anything >8 falls in this category.
Old speartip, golyat, speartip:asleep, weavess:incantation, 3 ghouls (counting the ranged guy here too), woodland spirit ability....the list goes on. Throw in witchers+roach or the 2 wild hunt riders (with the super easy deploy ability), and you can consistently play ONLY high tempo cards + pretty good thinning value too. With riders/witchers/roach/weavess you thin 5 cards! Better than some SK decks.
7-8 counting Woodlands, usually. Depends on the tall MS build.

Most probably aren't running all of the cards listed because it would mean the ability to do anything to the opponent board boils down to Drowners and a maybe a couple 2-3 damage units. It's 113p for all the cards you listed. That leaves 52 for the other 12 cards. So yeah, you get a lot of big units. And almost all of the other player cards can go untouched.

The SK comparison is not fair. Thinning by 5 using twice as many cards for like twice the provision cost, when none of them can fix a deck, is not the same thing.

So when is this deck going to be brought down to earth where the rest of the decks are?
If it's so amazing everyone would be playing it and stomping everyone else. It's not the case. Try it if you don't believe me.
 
#20
Something must be done about this deck. It is absolutely ridiculous. I mean, the deck can easily go up to 30-40 points in just a few cards. You can't counter cards because none of them have Orders or Countdowns. I'm talking about both versions of Speartip, Golyat, Ozzrel and Ghouls. Don't even get me started on those brain-dead "Thrive" units.

I've tech-ed against it and I only win when I have a perfect hand. That's like once every five matches. I run Scorch and Bekker's Twisted Mirror.

The exact same Monsters deck is ALL I'm seeing while playing ranked or casual. I didn't think I'd start complaining so soon, but seriously, use some different decks guys.