Might want to work on making that look more like an actual steam graph.
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I specifically said that there are valid points in this thread. I fully agree that there are some valid discussions in this thread. It doesn't detract from the fact it's an echo chamber. Again, an echo chamber is not necessarily devoid of valid points or valid discussions. I'm really not sure where you get this definition that the second a valid point/discussion is made within an echo chamber it automatically invalidates the echo chamber.
We'll just agree to disagree on that I guess.
This is a perfectly valid argument but I did say Steam is a good point to start. That means developers shouldn't limit themselves to Steam either. Like you, I don't believe there is any one place developers can look at that shows the full picture. They have a bunch of various tools to look at for that. Steam is just a really good starting point and it's a far better starting point than the forum.
LOL
Are you actually trying to imply I falsified this?
You realize everyone can look this up?
Cyberpunk 2077 on Steam (steampowered.com)
Better?
Again, please, I've provided two screenshots straight from the Steam page supporting my claims. You have provided nothing. Please show us this very easy to see negative slump.
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Echo Chamber
2. an environment in which the same opinions are repeatedly voiced and promoted, so that people are not exposed to opposing views: an online echo chamber; We need to move beyond the echo chamber of our network to understand diverse perspectives.
If we're gonna be pedantic lets just go all in I guess.
My apologies, I did not notice you had replied to me.
I'm not completely disagreeing with you on this. There are some horrible reviews on Steam. Positive and negative. Single sentence thumbs up/down. I'm also not that much of a fan of a system with only positive or negative. I'm not saying Steam is a flawless place to look at for feedback.
But how is this any better?
Anyone can create an account and attack/support the game. For all we know, and for all CDPR knows, there could be one person here impersonating 5 different people with the same opinion. Let's also not kid ourselves and act as if all the feedback here is well thought and rational. There are plenty of "EVERYTHING IS HORRIBLE/GREAT" posts around here.
Plus, out of 20K reviews, I'm willing to bet there are faaaaaaaar more reviews that are both well thought out and positive than there are negative ones here. Of course, this is entirely impossible to verify but there is not a single doubt in my mind.
But we are not talking about 5 good reviews. We're talking about 20 thousand. it's not even comparable to a company. A 19 pages thread with... what maybe a 100 uniques users? Or 20 thousand people saying "Like it". Yeah, to CDPR, it's definitely the 20k.
Edit: You know what, looking at the last few pages, I'd say you and @ozoak are right. This thread isn't an echo chamber. There is enough of an influx of opposing views. I can admit when I am wrong.
But I don't subscribe to the idea that an echo chamber must be devoid of any and all opposing viewpoints to be an echo chamber. It's a far too strict a definition.
Because (this is where the edit ends - the rest was there before)
Thing is, you will find opposing viewpoints in every single echo chamber out there. [...] Granted these people get jumped on and get forced to leave but I don't doubt for a second that there are some here who would gladly push those of us with a positive opinion of 2.0 out of the thread if they could.
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I really don't understand the "This game is Dead/Ruined" level of backlash I'm seeing here and a few other threads.
Sure, there are some changes I don't love now that I've really gotten into it, the level scaling being a big one, I could also do without some of the hacking changes, Although I don't think it's nearly as bad as people have made it, Quick Hacking is still Viable in open combat, and with some skill and a bit of a learning curve, in stealth. Sonic shock is a must have for stealth that a lot of people missed.
But overall, the skill tree is WAY more engaging, they're actually skills and abilities not just "Numbers Go Up" perks. The enemy AI seems much smarter which is arguably a good thing, unless of course you just want to destroy mindless punks like a god, and then there is easy mode for that anyway. Vehicle combat and actual real time chases and events are a very welcome addition.
Cyberware is also better now, there is more utility and options in builds than previously, I wish the capacity system was a little bit better balanced and less buggy, but I'm optimistic 2.02 has mostly fixed that, I haven't had the chance to play yet, but I'll finally have down time tomorrow, so I plan on jumping back in.
Like sure, 2.0(and its subsequent patches) was not perfect, and sure, I'd like to see a few more tweaks/fixes/adjustments before they fully move on to the next project. But the game is not dead, and beyond anyone's singular opinion on how "Good" 2.0/PL is, the sales data, reviews, overall positive online sentiment prove that. There are a ton of new and returning players that love the changes, there are tons of websites and videos and posts detailing how 2.0 has given them the game they wanted when it launched, and the sales are doing solid number still almost 3 years later. The game is definitely not "Dead."
I will concede that not all of the changes are a win, and for people who stuck with the game since day 1, instead of waiting for it to "Get Fixed" or bouncing in and out of the game every few months, yeah, those changes that don't land perfect are a letdown. But dead is an overstatement.
Sure, there are some changes I don't love now that I've really gotten into it, the level scaling being a big one, I could also do without some of the hacking changes, Although I don't think it's nearly as bad as people have made it, Quick Hacking is still Viable in open combat, and with some skill and a bit of a learning curve, in stealth. Sonic shock is a must have for stealth that a lot of people missed.
But overall, the skill tree is WAY more engaging, they're actually skills and abilities not just "Numbers Go Up" perks. The enemy AI seems much smarter which is arguably a good thing, unless of course you just want to destroy mindless punks like a god, and then there is easy mode for that anyway. Vehicle combat and actual real time chases and events are a very welcome addition.
Cyberware is also better now, there is more utility and options in builds than previously, I wish the capacity system was a little bit better balanced and less buggy, but I'm optimistic 2.02 has mostly fixed that, I haven't had the chance to play yet, but I'll finally have down time tomorrow, so I plan on jumping back in.
Like sure, 2.0(and its subsequent patches) was not perfect, and sure, I'd like to see a few more tweaks/fixes/adjustments before they fully move on to the next project. But the game is not dead, and beyond anyone's singular opinion on how "Good" 2.0/PL is, the sales data, reviews, overall positive online sentiment prove that. There are a ton of new and returning players that love the changes, there are tons of websites and videos and posts detailing how 2.0 has given them the game they wanted when it launched, and the sales are doing solid number still almost 3 years later. The game is definitely not "Dead."
I will concede that not all of the changes are a win, and for people who stuck with the game since day 1, instead of waiting for it to "Get Fixed" or bouncing in and out of the game every few months, yeah, those changes that don't land perfect are a letdown. But dead is an overstatement.
Let's try to boil your points down to something we can actually test and verify. From the wall of text I gathered the following:
- Someone must spend perk points, otherwise they can't finish the game because the game expects you to have the bonuses from some perk trees;
- Weapon categories have a single linear progression path;
- One will play the game for gameplay, at most, a number of times equal to the categories of guns + netrunning;
On the second point: the devs do make you choose between skills. Nothing in the game forces you to pick all of the perks in a particular skill tree path. Doing so is actually detrimental to build variety: the gameplay design team made a deliberate effort to place most of the impactful perks in the Phenom level (attribute 15) so players can have the end game functionality even in hybrid builds. Many Legend level perks (like the Intelligence ones, for example) are simply overpowered upgrades which you can absolutely do without if you have other avenues at your disposal. They're only necessary if you're doing a pure build.
As for your first point, the question lies open for the moment. Haven't tried that yet...
Thing is, you will find opposing viewpoints in every single echo chamber out there. [...] Granted these people get jumped on and get forced to leave but I don't doubt for a second that there are some here who would gladly push those of us with a positive opinion of 2.0 out of the thread if they could.
I think it's fair to say that people with criticisms of 2.0 feel they are likely not welcome either, it's not just you
This thread has had some...not nice...reactions to both criticism and praise, which have gone into personal attack territory.
On the face of it, this thread offers quite a simple premise, for the OP (and some others): the game, in 2.0, is dead for them. It's a statement of personal opinion, and while the individual points can be volleyed back and forth, and perhaps some opinions swayed in either direction, it doesn't really require debate. It is what it is, and beyond the minutia of it, it's accurate, right? The game is dead for some players. As such, any back and forth discussing pros and cons of 2.0 is somewhat? healthy in the grand scheme of things as far as internet discussions go, IMO
I've definitely seen far more toxic and nasty discussions over much less divisive topics.(On a side note, I might have to use italics less often for emphasis
)I like some of the changes in 2.0, on balance I dislike more I suppose and it makes the game boring for me. That's definitely a me problem though (with a potential argument that it's never ideal to alienate any users of a prior established product, but that's another topic, right?).
I really disliked the netrunner changes initially - that was influenced by me loading an existing save, which had been netrunner geared, and having it feel pretty pathetic. There's still some things I don't like about netrunner in 2.0, don't get me wrong, but it's hardly as dire as I thought initially. I don't do builds never have, I just wing it and progress characters and play the way I like. IMO 2.0 is less forgiving of that kind of casual approach to character development, so getting tips from here and other discussion groups was pretty key to making netrunner work nicely and swaying me away from hating on it.
Other things though, are just so 'meh' now with no upside (clothing, crafting, upgrading, mods, iconics, plus a few others) and I haven't heard any compelling reasons to change my mind.
The too-and-fro, the give and take, is buried sometimes in this thread, I think, but it is there.
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And just to throw some additional salt in (come on, have a laugh folks): I did miss the aerial take downs.
My first CP playthrough, I think v1.5 at the time, I tried netrunner and I kinda sucked. I did zero reading, I just dove in. So I started over. Focused on body tech and blades, gorilla arms, breaking into things and slaughtering with a katana, no investment in crafting or really into cyberware much. It was fun. Then I grabbed the perk for dropping down onto enemies to do take downs. That brought a whole new level of joy.
Why did that have to be removed?
Carry on!
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I don't know. I played for the first time properly last night instead of just larking around, having finally bothered to put all my perks into place.
Hacking was a blast in that there was a real sense of risk and "do this fast or you're dead". And I loved the pre patch 2 game, but nothing, really nothing, prepared me for the thrill of a whole gang coming for me in the rear view, backlit in a pathtraced sunset, while I tried to get out of a car park as quickly as possible because they were going to kill me.
The changes have added, to me, at least, a sense of thrill that in the old version faded away the higher your level became.
Hacking was a blast in that there was a real sense of risk and "do this fast or you're dead". And I loved the pre patch 2 game, but nothing, really nothing, prepared me for the thrill of a whole gang coming for me in the rear view, backlit in a pathtraced sunset, while I tried to get out of a car park as quickly as possible because they were going to kill me.
The changes have added, to me, at least, a sense of thrill that in the old version faded away the higher your level became.
I think it's fair to say that people with criticisms of 2.0 feel they are likely not welcome either, it's not just you
This thread has had some...not nice...reactions to both criticism and praise, which have gone into personal attack territory.
On the face of it, this thread offers quite a simple premise, for the OP (and some others): the game, in 2.0, is dead for them. It's a statement of personal opinion, and while the individual points can be volleyed back and forth, and perhaps some opinions swayed in either direction, it doesn't really require debate. It is what it is, and beyond the minutia of it, it's accurate, right? The game is dead for some players. As such, any back and forth discussing pros and cons of 2.0 is somewhat? healthy in the grand scheme of things as far as internet discussions go, IMO
(On a side note, I might have to use italics less often for emphasis
I like some of the changes in 2.0, on balance I dislike more I suppose and it makes the game boring for me. That's definitely a me problem though (with a potential argument that it's never ideal to alienate any users of a prior established product, but that's another topic, right?).
I really disliked the netrunner changes initially - that was influenced by me loading an existing save, which had been netrunner geared, and having it feel pretty pathetic. There's still some things I don't like about netrunner in 2.0, don't get me wrong, but it's hardly as dire as I thought initially. I don't do builds never have, I just wing it and progress characters and play the way I like. IMO 2.0 is less forgiving of that kind of casual approach to character development, so getting tips from here and other discussion groups was pretty key to making netrunner work nicely and swaying me away from hating on it.
Other things though, are just so 'meh' now with no upside (clothing, crafting, upgrading, mods, iconics, plus a few others) and I haven't heard any compelling reasons to change my mind.
The too-and-fro, the give and take, is buried sometimes in this thread, I think, but it is there.
See, I can agree with pretty much everything here. I mean, literally everything except some of your "meh" stuff (some of them I agree with but I can't possibly agree with everything now can I?).
It's a pretty rational and well thought out take on things. Yes, the game is dead for some people. That's fair and it does suck for these people. There is no discussing tastes. What works for one person doesn't work for another and neither is superior to the other.
The thing is, a lot of people do think that what they prefer is the superior and correct way and they want everyone to adhere to that way. You can see a lot of that in this thread. One way or the other.
And just to throw some additional salt in (come on, have a laugh folks): I did miss the aerial take downs.
My first CP playthrough, I think v1.5 at the time, I tried netrunner and I kinda sucked. I did zero reading, I just dove in. So I started over. Focused on body tech and blades, gorilla arms, breaking into things and slaughtering with a katana, no investment in crafting or really into cyberware much. It was fun. Then I grabbed the perk for dropping down onto enemies to do take downs. That brought a whole new level of joy.
Why did that have to be removed?
Carry on!
I'm confused, you know the aerial takedowns are still in, right? They're not a skill you need to take anymore, you can just pull them off from the get go.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
And just to throw some additional salt in (come on, have a laugh folks): I did miss the aerial take downs.
My first CP playthrough, I think v1.5 at the time, I tried netrunner and I kinda sucked. I did zero reading, I just dove in. So I started over. Focused on body tech and blades, gorilla arms, breaking into things and slaughtering with a katana, no investment in crafting or really into cyberware much. It was fun. Then I grabbed the perk for dropping down onto enemies to do take downs. That brought a whole new level of joy.
Why did that have to be removed?
Carry on!
It's actually not removed, the takedowns still exist, they just don't need the perk anymore, if you time the jump/landing right, they should still be there, it's a change they definitely should have explained better, I missed it too, until I saw a video that pointed out "Changes you may have missed" and I was like "Oh I guess they should have let us know lol"
As for the rest of your post, While I generally agree that sharing an opinion of is something doesn't "work for you" is perfectly fine even helpful feedback for dev teams, I think some people sort of jumped on the overly negative bandwagon, and things got a little harsher than they needed to. I also dislike the mentality some people have of, "I don't care who likes it, I DON'T so it's bad and you're bad, and everything is bad, and you need to change it back for ME." I'm not accusing the OP of this necessarily, but some people on the forums, yeah absolutely, that's how they sound.
And just to throw some additional salt in (come on, have a laugh folks): I did miss the aerial take downs.
Why did that have to be removed?
The Hidden Dragon Ninjutsu perk is an innate ability as of 2.0. Here's a list of other innate abilities as well.
OMG
Dear CDPR I shouldn't have to discover this sort of thing online!
I'm tempted to fire the game back up.
Thanks, everyone. Yes, I genuinely thought they'd removed them because once was a perk, now not, and it's not (as far as I saw) explained in game at all that it was made an innate ability. Sigh.
Dear CDPR I shouldn't have to discover this sort of thing online!
I'm tempted to fire the game back up.
Thanks, everyone. Yes, I genuinely thought they'd removed them because once was a perk, now not, and it's not (as far as I saw) explained in game at all that it was made an innate ability. Sigh.
Well, thank you all for your replies. Despite multiple reminders, this thread does seem to go off topic quite quickly. Addtionally, it seems to be mostly going in circles now.
Feel free to start new threads for individual issues or continue discussion of those issues in other existing threads.
This general "Game is Dead" thread is now closed.
Feel free to start new threads for individual issues or continue discussion of those issues in other existing threads.
This general "Game is Dead" thread is now closed.
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