My favourite game, now dead

[yabab]

That's cool, didn't know that was possible, I've always been under the impression once the alert is active that the enemy hunt you down. Unless you run half a mile away. Though I've never tried those other grenades, will have to give them a whirl, never thought flash was worth it.

Memory Wipe quickhack is also a way to break combat. Relic perk for the Optical Camo is a third option.

 

[MartineDee]

Bosses support stealth combat. Like I said, you seem to have a very narrow perspective on what the game can provide. Try branching out a little more... I'm sure you'll find other games within Cyberpunk 2077.

Here is also some 1.63 gameplay, my maxed-out V vs. Adam Smasher on the very hard difficulty. V is a deity at that stage in 1.63, though it also helps that Adam has weakness to electricity.

And... that is how the comic was made.

 

[Nixilos]

We all just gonna pretend the problem was solely that V was too strong and not that bosses were also severely under-tuned? At least nerfing yourself was clean and easy before if you wanted to hold back. I had a lot of fun intentionally not taking or at least not using my strongest options before. I'm not even sure what to remove from my build anymore if I want a challenge.

Quickhacks are still godly with little to no investment at least in open combat. Ban contagion? Ban finisher/takedown enablers? Idk anymore.
Nekomata 1 or 2 shots without perk investment. Should I use a lower tier? Use something else? Idk anymore.
Mantis blades either feel dull and slow at reflex 9 or like a 1-2-finisher machine at reflex 15-20. I wouldn't mind so much if there were side/back finishers and I didn't have to watch the game snap them into place for a frontal finisher every time. Good or not it's just ugly to me.
Should I remove the Biomonitor so that there's a chance I'll die even though my body attribute is 4? Probably.
etc. etc.

It's hard to find the sweet spot between meat sponge enemies vs not having to look at the screen while I play even though I'm on very hard. The fun of tuning a build for just the right difficulty is gone for me.

 

[ozoak]

Sorry, yes it's a lot of text, but you asked. As my swan song I'll offer the feedback

Since you're emotionless about this, I assume you're able to have a decent conversation about this without going into obviously emotionally charged answers that so many have provided before.

Sure. I mean others have tried, I've tried. There's not much point to it, as the most common response is along the lines of "what about this improvement" without really hearing the criticism. Lets give it one last spin though.

What was less monotonous about the old systems?

V had no skill to speak of - the skill tree was largely just passive small incremental % upgrades.

I haven't really complained about skills in 2.0, though some are now gone and netrunning is...different.
Additional skills do now exist. Largely added around (poor, I'm KB/mouse user) car combat, with welcome recognition of mantis/mono/gorilla cyberware, and what seems to be a heavy focus on turning enemies into blood mist with up close combat.

Summary: The skill tree expansion could have been implemented without removing & changing other elements.

Netrunning was as thoughtless as it could be.

An opinion, which is fine. I'd challenge though: is it less thoughtless now? In my opinion, no.
Many vocal people enjoyed netrunning. Were some of the mechanical changes to it welcome? Heck yes. eg: Queing? Yes please!
Under 2.0 netrunning is simply...fine. My opinion is that it feels dull and flat now with only a limited number of queued combos having any real effectiveness. This is less a reflection of skills being removed (though some were) or changed (again some were) and much more, in my opinion, due to the collision of mechanical changes to the game (eg: enemy detection rates, enemy trace rates, enemy aggro spread, trickle-down impacts from level scaling).
People thought netrunning (in a cyberpunk game) was OP pre 2.0. I wont argue that it wasn't, I would assert though that in a single player game, it didn't need to be "fixed". People who didn't like the nature of the play style simply played another playstyle, just like they do now. Net zero.

Pure speculation but I would be very surprised if (like some other changes) the netrunning changes telegraph multi-player changes to core gameplay. Balancing a "class" like this, recognising "OP" and flattening it while raising others, feels entirely MMO.

Summary: netrunning isn't objectively much less powerful, it just feels without depth, making it dull.

By level 25 the game posed little to no challenge to anyone and by 35 posed no challenge at all. On very hard.

I'm not sure what I should be addressing with this one.
My experience with 2.0 is that it is now not a challenge from the very outset all the way through, with only a couple of named NPC exceptions.
Again: flattened. Aside from literally a few encounters, I didn't feel challenged. Each encounter along the way, wherever I am, whichever group it is I'm fighting, feels just the same as the last encounter. Is it significantly worse than pre-2.0, perhaps only a little but not significantly. However this has been a dilution of the enjoyment by small degrees across multiple factors.

Summary: "Second verse, same as the first!". Difficulty isn't "better", just flat.

Itemization was that of a mediocre looter shooter.

Itemisation could have been improved. Instead it was eliminated.
In a turnaround, I'll ask: how can it be argued it's now better?

Cosmetics were a difficult thing pre 2.0 given the 1st person nature of the game, I personally didn't mind not having transmog. It felt more meaningful to try and find an ensemble outfit that didn't look like vomit and delivered the stats/abilities you wanted. The 'wardrobe' largely solved and scratched that collector/fashion itch for people who wanted it however clothing still had some value. Now though, that flameproof aramid balistic dress? (as just an example) Previously it felt like an example of advancements in technology that a dress could be imbued with physical properties given it protective attributes. Equipment is now more irrelevant than it was before, giving more "what's the point" vibes.

And weapons? Mods? They don't make sense.
I can craft weapons & mods. I can upgrade unique weapons.
I can't remove mods? even the ones I made and installed into the weapons I made?
I can upgrade a unique weapon I didn't make, but not the one I did?

There is no enjoyment in finding new gear, of any sort really. Collecting clothes/weapons is just fodder for the crafting components. And if you do/have PL, why would you bother opening random containers in the world when you just do the drops and cars, if hunting components are your thing it's pretty hard to dismiss the efficiency in those two new mechanics.

IMO this is simply more foreshadowing (testing?) of flat itemisation appropriate for an MMO. Someone joined the dev team who didn't like/understand the endorphin hit players get from RPG item collection cycles. IMO.

Summary: itemisation and equipment has been ironed flat and rendered meaningless.

Cyberware was largely fine but rather uninspired compared to it's description in lore.

I really like the expansion of cyberware parts and variety, it might not be extensive, but it gives it some more depth. However the random/cycling stats thing can get in the bin.

I'll ask people to ponder: in what kind of game do studios (or publishers) give players crafting but simultaneously want players engaged in a constant hunt for "the right" stats on items that can't be upgraded/crafted.

I'm genuinely asking here - because you mentioned being in an emotionless state over all this - what made the previous system less monotonous, exactly.

Asking "what makes it monotonous now?" is a different question to "what made it less monotonous before?". Subtle, but different.

For me the experience was less smooth before. Skills, encounters, items, enemies, etc etc all had dips and troughs. And sure, as you leveled those contrasting moments became less frequent, but they could still be there. The lack of monotony perhaps coming from the gap in the dips/troughs rather than the peaks and lows themselves. If that makes sense?

Now the experience feels end to end the same. So much has been eliminated and flattened that the gap almost doesn't exist. There's no peaks and troughs, and no variety. No drive to find something new, because no new discovery pushes towards a peak because peaks don't exist.

You need to look at the gameplay loops from a higher, holistic, level than individually. Individually there are improvements and unwelcome changes, improvements may even outnumbers the unwelcome ones. However the "flattening" is just entirely unentertaining.

I didn't stop playing out of a sense of determination that I "hated things so much I would just play something else", but realised I hadn't played for days, didn't miss it, and had no interest in launching it again because for me the flat nature numbed multiple "sense of achievement" points

I moved on from the game passively, unconsciously, because in analysis the game feels now like it's been sedated, numb and pointless. (How very Cyberpunk of the devs to meta their own game like that.)

I'm really asking. Not trying to diminish your opinion or anything of the sort. Just a genuine, emotionless, conversation about why you think the previous system was less monotonous.

Thanks. I'm not sure anyone's really listening to this kind of feedback. God knows negative feedback can be exhausting. I would think the worst thing that could happen to a game is people, once energised by it, walk away because they're bored. Maybe someone somewhere can grok that.

 

[zkarma]

I'm utterly shocked by this patch. Utterly.
I was entirely buying into the hype-train of how good it would be, but this patch has killed the game dead for me.

Hacking is just gone. It is now so weak, it is literally not worth using. Why would I spec so many points to stealth and hacking if it does no damage, costs a fortune to use, is staggeringly slow, none of the hacks spread without that top perk (however the hell you unlock that; your awful new UI explains nothing), and is now just a way for enemies to instantly locate you and blow you away? I have the top 5+++ starred gear in the game; it is now worthless. Is that supposed to be a good feeling?

Add to that that I no longer have health packs (the top maxdoc restores about 5% of my health meter (how is that any use to anyone?) and you've effectively removed grenades given how slow they 'spawn' (a ridiculous and immersion-destroying decision) and the fact that every car in the game i now a grenade in waiting.

And finally, the worst part: we can respec ONCE in a game we are likely to play for dozens upon dozens of hours? No. Just no. This is likely the worst decision you made. How am I supposed to redefine my playstyle to this new paradigm if I cannot experiment with builds? it is just nonsense.

You've [...] made all the wrong decision. I am now gonna have to stop the playthrough I was in the middle of and wait until you reconsider this mess and give us back any form of power or control in the game. At least I hope to Jebus you reconsider, as this game is just dead to me, right now. All the fun, all the playstyles I liked, has been utterly stripped out and I am now left with an extremely buggy vanilla shooter that I have no interest in playing.

This is Cyberpunk. A game I am supposed to be able to play as an elite netrunner. It now just feels like any other shooter, and is massively worse for it. Please, for the love of my favourite game, reconsider your decisions.

[...

Question. You still feel this way? Or did you stop playing?

 

[Kraxe13]

Question. You still feel this way? Or did you stop playing?

Can't speak for the OP, but here is a screenshot of my time played.

And keep in mind I played on PS4 then PS5 before the PC.

And now I can't work myself up to doing the heist mission. Every build I play feels terrible, and I start over.

I have tried mods, I have tried guides.... I just want my old 1.63 net runner combat back. No overclocking. No "ram tax" for "shock" then the hack you want to do. No pistol finishers or something else just as stupid. And I don't want to play an "anime" type combat system.

It's so frustrating to want to see PL, and just be held back by the combat system changes.

 

[GrimReaper801]

Asking "what makes it monotonous now?" is a different question to "what made it less monotonous before?". Subtle, but different.

For me the experience was less smooth before. Skills, encounters, items, enemies, etc etc all had dips and troughs. And sure, as you leveled those contrasting moments became less frequent, but they could still be there. The lack of monotony perhaps coming from the gap in the dips/troughs rather than the peaks and lows themselves. If that makes sense?

Now the experience feels end to end the same. So much has been eliminated and flattened that the gap almost doesn't exist. There's no peaks and troughs, and no variety. No drive to find something new, because no new discovery pushes towards a peak because peaks don't exist.

You need to look at the gameplay loops from a higher, holistic, level than individually. Individually there are improvements and unwelcome changes, improvements may even outnumbers the unwelcome ones. However the "flattening" is just entirely unentertaining.

I didn't stop playing out of a sense of determination that I "hated things so much I would just play something else", but realised I hadn't played for days, didn't miss it, and had no interest in launching it again because for me the flat nature numbed multiple "sense of achievement" points

I moved on from the game passively, unconsciously, because in analysis the game feels now like it's been sedated, numb and pointless. (How very Cyberpunk of the devs to meta their own game like that.)

I'm not going to go on on a point by point rebuttal of everything you said, there has been more than enough of that. My sole point was to get a better understanding of your experience in comparison to my experience without all the emotional response that most people can't seem to get past.

It does give me a better understanding of your point of view and I do understand what you're saying. We've all been there I'm certain - we've all slowly stopped playing a game over time without missing it and without being fully conscious that we are stopping until one day it just dawns on us that we have stopped playing and this wasn't fun to us. We've all had games we wanted to just love but it didn't pan out that way despite our best efforts.

I still don't understand why you feel that way about the game now and didn't before. Frankly, I don't have to understand and there is probably no way you could get me to understand, our point of views are diametrically opposed in many ways. You provided a rebuttals to some of the points I've made and I could provide a rebuttal to yours. Even the peaks you say don't exist anymore I completely disagree with.

Despite my disagreement, I can relate to your experience and at least sympathize with having a game you liked suddenly turned into a game you don't like.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with everything you've said. I agree on certain things in fact.

Thanks. I'm not sure anyone's really listening to this kind of feedback. God knows negative feedback can be exhausting. I would think the worst thing that could happen to a game is people, once energised by it, walk away because they're bored. Maybe someone somewhere can grok that.

Honestly, I strongly believe they do read the player feedback here and they are listening. The problem is that so much of the feedback is of terrible quality, positive or negative.

It's not just for CP2077 or video games in general. Most feedback about anything is terrible. Just in this thread, the vast majority of feedback is of completely horrible quality and largely worthless. If people could, like you just largely did, explain their experiences instead of "this sucks/this is broken/this is XYZ" and let the developers consider how they might improve this while staying true to their vision of the game, it would go a long way. That's just not how people typically provide feedback though. It's how it always been and most likely how it will always be. Wadding through what is good feedback and what is bad feedback is a challenge.

For the record, I'm not saying I'm any better at providing feedback. In fact, I typically don't offer feedback which is arguably worse.

 

[aladinf]

Never played pre 2.0. Started with PL as a Netrunner on very hard. Haven't read the whole thread. But i kinda find it too easy. Overclock Audioshock Synapse and everything dies before any alert. Bloodpump. Biomonitor and Second Heart and you never really die. I found it so busted that i switched to smart weapons but when i found Warden this build is mega busted aswell. Imho the 10 additional Levels are over the top. Builds overlap too much now.
But overall i love it. One of the best games ever.

 

[rickboy333]

If you want to oneshot with assault rifles, don't want to die or having a click-time adventure with hacking, just play on normal/easy?

Why are people complaning if the literal highest difficulty is been made actually hard(er)? If enemies wheren't bullet spongeses or did't do loads of damage (either high damage or high DPS), they wouldn't be hard. Fact of the matter is that 1.6 was very easy on the highest difficulty. Now you need (some) skill to finish the game.

 

[Wint3rking]

I did a netrunner playthrough before 2.0 and I'm currently doing one now and my opinion is relatively the same. The build is overpowered AF.

Not really strong in the beginning but it doesn't take long. And stealth netrunning is indeed possible, although I usually can kill every group of enemies before they can detect me without using Sonic Shock.

 

[Kraxe13]

If you want to oneshot with assault rifles, don't want to die or having a click-time adventure with hacking, just play on normal/easy?

Why are people complaning if the literal highest difficulty is been made actually hard(er)? If enemies wheren't bullet spongeses or did't do loads of damage (either high damage or high DPS), they wouldn't be hard. Fact of the matter is that 1.6 was very easy on the highest difficulty. Now you need (some) skill to finish the game.

Tracing is still there on easy. A hack can one shot an npc, and the trace still goes off.
The only real solution is mods, and even then the rest of hacking looks(*) terrible in game play.

(*) “Looks” because I have yet to get past the heist mission, I can no longer find a build I actually enjoy playing.
it’s getting kind of ridiculous at this point.

Post automatically merged: Oct 27, 2023

I did a netrunner playthrough before 2.0 and I'm currently doing one now and my opinion is relatively the same. The build is overpowered AF.

Not really strong in the beginning but it doesn't take long. And stealth netrunning is indeed possible, although I usually can kill every group of enemies before they can detect me without using Sonic Shock.

First of all, I don’t think anyone is saying the new way is not effective, it just looks like a system many of us don’t want to play. Personally I don’t want to rely on overclocking to do end game. I prefer the pre-2.0 gameplay more.

Second, not every scenario allows me to “kill all the enemies” in the allotted trace time. I found I had to “hack and run away” a lot. Not really enjoyable compared to how it was.

Before 2.0 I was really fairly mod less (I think I had an inventory mod for awhile, but I dropped it when it was not patch updated).
Now I am heavily modded to counter act the 2.0 changes, and I have yet to capture how good the game felt for me in 1.63.

I’ll keep saying it. I feel like they baited me in with a new content dlc, then they switched out the combat system to one I hate.
Maybe someday a mod will show up to change the gameplay enough that I might actually get to experience what I paid for.

 

[GrimReaper801]

I’ll keep saying it. I feel like they baited me in with a new content dlc, then they switched out the combat system to one I hate.
Maybe someday a mod will show up to change the gameplay enough that I might actually get to experience what I paid for.

CDPR was upfront about this new system - the new system was released days before PL. If you still bought PL/didn't refund despite hating the new system, that's on you.

You even said this earlier in this very thread.

Yeah. I played the "new'" unmodded gameplay for 2 hours and determined it sucked. Just like many others here on these forums. What was I supposed to do, play it for 50 before understanding the obvious?

I know what I like. The "new" 2.0 netrunner combat is not enjoyable. It was enjoyable to me in 1.63, and now it is very much not so. And I felt it right away. The only reason it took me even 2 hours was that I was so incredulous that they would make such a horrible combat change.

In other words, you could have gotten a refund. You chose not to.

There was no bait and switch here.

It's fine that you don't like the game as it is now and it sucks that you can't get access to PL without accepting changes you dislike but let's not create some false narrative that CDPR somehow baited you into this. You chose this. You could have asked for a refund and been exactly where you were prior.

 

[Kraxe13]

CDPR was upfront about this new system - the new system was released days before PL. If you still bought PL/didn't refund despite hating the new system, that's on you.

You even said this earlier in this very thread.


In other words, you could have gotten a refund. You chose not to.

There was no bait and switch here.

It's fine that you don't like the game as it is now and it sucks that you can't get access to PL without accepting changes you dislike but let's not create some false narrative that CDPR somehow baited you into this. You chose this. You could have asked for a refund and been exactly where you were prior.

I knew they were making combat changes, but I was not in a beta for the dlc. They have made combat changes before, tweaks really, how was I supposed to know that they were going to upend the system by that much this time around?
I assumed it was just additional tweaks, getting rid of some unpopular choices, adding finishers, streamlining trees…

I purchased the dlc the moment I was able to. And I purposefully avoided most of the announcements because I wanted to avoid spoilers.
They could have implemented the combat changes first before the dlc (the combat changes happened regardless of dlc purchase) but they did not. So there was no forewarning about how terrible these combat changes were going to be.

So if you think there was any real way of me knowing how drastic those combat changes were, you are mistaken.
My comment stands.

 

[GrimReaper801]

I knew they were making combat changes, but I was not in a beta for the dlc. They have made combat changes before, tweaks really, how was I supposed to know that they were going to upend the system by that much this time around?
I assumed it was just additional tweaks, getting rid of some unpopular choices, adding finishers, streamlining trees…

I purchased the dlc the moment I was able to. And I purposefully avoided most of the announcements because I wanted to avoid spoilers.
They could have implemented the combat changes first before the dlc (the combat changes happened regardless of dlc purchase) but they did not. So there was no forewarning about how terrible these combat changes were going to be.

So if you think there was any real way of me knowing how drastic those combat changes were, you are mistaken.
My comment stands.

Beta? What?

No one was in any beta - there wasn't any beta.

Patch 2.0 was released on September 21, 2023. With it came all the changes. Phantom Liberty was released September 26, 2023.

So, no, you are factually wrong and definitely could have seen the changes prior because they were implemented before the DLC released. CDPR was very upfront about the changes. This thread was created on September 22, 2023 in fact. That's 4 days before PL released.

But, again, in this very thread you also said that you felt it right away. It didn't take you 2 hours to feel how wrong it was. Hence, you could have gotten a refund but chose not to.

Again - entirely on you regardless of how you look at it. No bait and switch here.

 

[Wragan]

Well, I have finally reached the point I knew I will reach - faster than I thought I would. Thanks to the messed up skill tree rework, I have left with no intention to play the game (and the DLC). I already know what would happen if I went with pistols/revolvers, shotguns, power AR/SMGs etc.

Introducing game-changing, high-tier perks was a great chance to shake up the game, lay the foundation for player and - by implementing more of them - developer creativity. I believe they had a chance to set up skill trees which allowed players to be creative, CREATE their own playstyle by picking perks from multiple skill trees - not all, maybe with only one lvl 20 perk - and have their own "classes". The new perks don't SUPPORT playstyles (which could have allowed mixing things up), they DETERMINE them.

What I feel like we were left with are preset options. I, the player have no real control over my own playstyle in the sense that I can't create effective ones. I can't stray from the paths of the skill trees because then I will be sh*t. "I will to this and that with those weapons category." This literally set the number of meaningful replays - at least for me. Also, for me, going with a category, and then shoving netrunning next to it isn't count as a new one - I would just support the main thing not with movement/Sandevistan, but with quickhacks, I will still do the same thing with my weapon.

This also make the Iconics almost pointless. Why would I even bother finding these otherwise cool, unique looking and feeling weapons when 99% of damage comes from the perks? This - for me, at least - makes the Iconics as meaningful as weapon skins. They CAN'T bring anything important to the table. And to be clear on this: any game that I played that had loot and/or unique weapons - Diablo games, POE, Borderlands games, Fallout games, Division games, etc. - one of my favorite part was getting my hand on unique weapons. Whether they came from fixed points (quest rewards), or were random drops that needed to be farmed. Those were a great part of the fun I had with those kind of games.

I personally think CDPR made the game dumber with the skill tree reworks. Before, I get every bonus, but if I wanted to feel like I made something during playing the game - in character/stat/style sense - then I had to figure out how to use them and the items and cyberwares to have my own stuff (not because it was necessary, but because I wanted to). Now, I can't do anything else. You get the weapon specific skill trees that give you the ILLUSION OF ACHIVEMENT, by getting you heavy results when you max them out, but then you will be left with the same thing, if you want to use that same category - this only favors for those who didn't cared for creativity in the first place. Aiming to make the game more fun for more people, it's always a good thing!
But simply going for the lowest common denominator is one of the reasons why gaming keeps getting reduced to meaningless, soulless "next products", the next FIFA, the next COD etc.

 

[ozoak]

Why are people complaning if the literal highest difficulty is been made actually hard(er)?

You're not reading the complaints properly, or at all and are making some assumptions. Virtually no-one is saying hardest difficulty is harder - because it's not.

If enemies wheren't bullet spongeses or did't do loads of damage (either high damage or high DPS), they wouldn't be hard.

They aren't hard. Who's post are you responding to here? Bullet-sponges? yes. High damage? Questionable. Hard? Nope.

 

[Guest 3847602]

https://www.pcgamer.com/cyberpunk-2...o-2s-skill-trees-and-dooms-relentless-combat/

I'll just leave this here (straight from horse's mouth), though many of us already suspected - main source of inspiration for 2.0 are Diablo, Doom and anime.
Outstanding!

 

[SkipDaemon]

Are people really mad you can't spam short circuit and win anymore? You have to be creative now, experiment with the combo system. I like the changes. And yes, it could use some tweaking, but I think they've got the right idea. I don't want this game to go back to short circuit/overheat spam. That was boring.

I am pretty p**sed that I am at level 60 with Sandy Pistol build and doing 50 points of damage with transedent unique teir 5++ pistols on enemies with 2000+ hit points, maxed out in cool for pistol and snipers perks and doing minimal damage.

I am not stuck at a part of the game (liverty, when you rescue the pressi and there is a lift ambush ) and I can't kill the enemies quick enough to get through it.

There is a difference between balancing the game and a f***ing it up.

 

[Wragan]

https://www.pcgamer.com/cyberpunk-2...o-2s-skill-trees-and-dooms-relentless-combat/

I'll just leave this here (straight from horse's mouth), though many of us already suspected - main source of inspiration for 2.0 are Diablo, Doom and anime.
Outstanding!

And they even failed to do those justice!
In Diablo 2, you get skills, which you can use with whatever weapon/gear/set up you want!
In Doom, you only stop shooting if the gun runs out of bullets or when you die - not when you run out of breath!

 

[SkipDaemon]

I want to know who thought it was a good idea to use stamina whilst firing weapons.

Oh my pinky is knackered, guess I can't fire now.

Stupidity of the highest order.