Never been a supporter of Mill. Wouldn't mind if it was gone forever.
I always liked playing against mill, because it was different and it felt like you had to think about every single step you made instead of just playing nearly the same as against other decks.
Moreover, playing against mill favours decks with a lot of synergie and slow archetypes, which I think is good, such that not every archetype is point vomitting.
The only thing negative, that I see is that it takes ages to play, but that is easily solvable by having similar to a fast chess game a total time, which gets increased by maybe 15 seconds for every turn.
Moreover, playing against mill favours decks with a lot of synergie and slow archetypes, which I think is good, such that not every archetype is point vomitting.
The only thing negative, that I see is that it takes ages to play, but that is easily solvable by having similar to a fast chess game a total time, which gets increased by maybe 15 seconds for every turn.
Ι have to agree with some of the points made here. Even as detestable as Mill is, it might still be more fun to play against than Dwarves for example. Depending on the deck. I'd prefer to face mill with anything but my Reveal deck (which thins a lot 
) than to face Dwarves with my swarm deck (at Ithlinne's mercy). Because even if your opponent gains card advantage, it's usually not enough. Mill is low tempo and to win rounds, you often need to go 2 cards down. Final CA is not enough to make up for that often.
) than to face Dwarves with my swarm deck (at Ithlinne's mercy). Because even if your opponent gains card advantage, it's usually not enough. Mill is low tempo and to win rounds, you often need to go 2 cards down. Final CA is not enough to make up for that often.
ser2440;n10417062 said:Ι have to agree with some of the points made here. Even as detestable as Mill is, it might still be more fun to play against than Dwarves for example. Depending on the deck. I'd prefer to face mill with anything but my Reveal deck (which thins a lot
The original point here was that Mill is no longer low tempo. You can play your basic viper witcher/slave driver deck and just toss in all the mill cards.
Always makes me chuckle when people say Mill is based on skill.
And yet it certainly is. Shilard, Avallac'h, Stregobor and Albrich all have a strength of 8 - 10 when the average bronze is 12 points. Viper Witchers are also worth 12 in most Mill decks and Slave drivers are worth 11 - 12 too. Which means the highest bronzes can only produce an equal value to what the opponent of the mill player probably gets EVERY turn. With werewolves, you can get 12 - 14 + 2 or +4 depending on how many boons you have and whether you play werewolves or alphas. For Mill this is impossible to match usually.
The problem is that this value will then be detracted from you because thinners like the Slyzard or Siren in said deck (I also use Ge'els) will then brick in your hand. You just have to have earned enough and rely on a powerful finisher to counter that. Of course I agree with you that it is higher tempo than it once was
ser2440;n10418112 said:And yet it certainly is. Shilard, Avallac'h, Stregobor and Albrich all have a strength of 8 - 10 when the average bronze is 12 points. Viper Witchers are also worth 12 in most Mill decks and Slave drivers are worth 11 - 12 too. Which means the highest bronzes can only produce an equal value to what the opponent of the mill player probably gets EVERY turn. With werewolves, you can get 12 - 14 + 2 or +4 depending on how many boons you have and whether you play werewolves or alphas. For Mill this is impossible to match usually.
The problem is that this value will then be detracted from you because thinners like the Slyzard or Siren in said deck (I also use Ge'els) will then brick in your hand. You just have to have earned enough and rely on a powerful finisher to counter that. Of course I agree with you that it is higher tempo than it once was
I've seen the same 15-16 point witchers in a mill deck, but they don't even have to be, as long as they remove your engines, which they will no matter what it is. I've seen same old 14-point ale plays, same old rezzes, all in a mill deck. Doesn't seem like the tempo was any lower than usual. I mean, it's almost impossible to beat mill with the decks I build, unless it's a mulligan deck, but nowadays I can't even set up to get any points. Engine cards get pinged off by witchers and then I'm out of cards by the end of round 2. Fun!
Well, let's count first.
In extreme mill case you have: 2x Avallach (renew) + Shillard + Stregobor + Albrich = 2*2+1+1+1=7 cards. That may be extended (at a great cost - as we have almost zero tempo play) by two, with the leader and decoy, making it 9. Perhaps we can also have Vilgefortz for extra card. Making it 10. The number of cards may be also increased (normally by 1, max 2) with Sweers. Now, normal deck has 25 cards, out of which 10 is drawn initially, then 2 then 1, so total 13. So, with milling of 7 cards, we get to 20. So, you should still have 6+ cards for thinning for mill to be anyhow successful. The extreme mill, at cost of almost zero tempo for decoy / leader will, in optimal draw (which happen rarely), get maybe 3 cards more (depending on opposite player skill, Sweers will get 1 card on average, and max 1 card in Ciri Nova 26 card deck), punishing you for 3+ tutors. That is not extreme at all - just punishes decks which are overtuned and use more than 5 tutors and spies (honestly - with 3 tutors you will usually win). Now, you can have 26 cards or 27, which generally makes mill very weak.
In my games when I tried mill, I only rarely managed to actually get opponent to zero cards - however, the tutors they have halves the value of their bronzes, + some cards which just draw another cards may be non-active - hence mill may get value. But it is a tricky and difficult way to play, especially that you really need good initial draw or you are toast - if you miss Avallach (turn 2 latest) or renew, you cannot mill even tutor-rich decks. Also, the better players know how to play against mill even with such overtuned decks - one e.g. should not use Summoning circle on opponent spy - if you use it, well, you just played into opponent strategy...
Generally, as long as 27 cards or more decks exist (though already 26 now is enough, as Ciri Nova decks do not have that many tutors), mill will lose to those. So, the niche is really small - currently in meta we have several decks based on tutor cards, which are a bit unbalanced now - and mill may punish those. But the archetype as is kind of weak, as most decks build around value will not struggle against mill - as you need really 6+ thinning cards... Remember, the maximum is 40 cards - that number exist for a reason... Not all decks should be 25 - and if you have 25 and many tutors, well, you will lose to that rare mill deck.
In extreme mill case you have: 2x Avallach (renew) + Shillard + Stregobor + Albrich = 2*2+1+1+1=7 cards. That may be extended (at a great cost - as we have almost zero tempo play) by two, with the leader and decoy, making it 9. Perhaps we can also have Vilgefortz for extra card. Making it 10. The number of cards may be also increased (normally by 1, max 2) with Sweers. Now, normal deck has 25 cards, out of which 10 is drawn initially, then 2 then 1, so total 13. So, with milling of 7 cards, we get to 20. So, you should still have 6+ cards for thinning for mill to be anyhow successful. The extreme mill, at cost of almost zero tempo for decoy / leader will, in optimal draw (which happen rarely), get maybe 3 cards more (depending on opposite player skill, Sweers will get 1 card on average, and max 1 card in Ciri Nova 26 card deck), punishing you for 3+ tutors. That is not extreme at all - just punishes decks which are overtuned and use more than 5 tutors and spies (honestly - with 3 tutors you will usually win). Now, you can have 26 cards or 27, which generally makes mill very weak.
In my games when I tried mill, I only rarely managed to actually get opponent to zero cards - however, the tutors they have halves the value of their bronzes, + some cards which just draw another cards may be non-active - hence mill may get value. But it is a tricky and difficult way to play, especially that you really need good initial draw or you are toast - if you miss Avallach (turn 2 latest) or renew, you cannot mill even tutor-rich decks. Also, the better players know how to play against mill even with such overtuned decks - one e.g. should not use Summoning circle on opponent spy - if you use it, well, you just played into opponent strategy...
Generally, as long as 27 cards or more decks exist (though already 26 now is enough, as Ciri Nova decks do not have that many tutors), mill will lose to those. So, the niche is really small - currently in meta we have several decks based on tutor cards, which are a bit unbalanced now - and mill may punish those. But the archetype as is kind of weak, as most decks build around value will not struggle against mill - as you need really 6+ thinning cards... Remember, the maximum is 40 cards - that number exist for a reason... Not all decks should be 25 - and if you have 25 and many tutors, well, you will lose to that rare mill deck.
I like the Mill archetype. I think it adds a layer of resource management thinking to the game.
You thin your deck mindlessly down to only 2-3 cards? Then you lose.
I find it healthy to have Mill in the Meta, keeping greedy decks honest.
As an archetype shouldn't be pushed to Tier 1.
You thin your deck mindlessly down to only 2-3 cards? Then you lose.
I find it healthy to have Mill in the Meta, keeping greedy decks honest.
As an archetype shouldn't be pushed to Tier 1.
wojteks0;n10419512 said:
Well, first, I haven't seen decoy used, but every mill deck I played against ran Emhyr/Cahir combo for extra two cards, so that's nine. Sweers, which by himself can wreck certain acrhetypes, adds two more. Plus 13 cards played. So you're looking at 24 cards drawn. Throw decoy in and it becomes 25. Throw in a spy and it's 26. So even if you run one tutor, it's dead in the water. If I run commandos or volunteers i'm two cards short. Running 2-4 tutor cards is not uncommon. That's like 4-5 completely dead cards, so I'm basically 4 o5 5 cards down trying to compete for points with a deck that could beat me on even cards (slave drivers/witchers). Even if I run a mulligan deck without any thinning, it's going to be tough, but like, who doesn't thin their decks?
p.s. I would not run more than 25 cards in a deck unless it is a Nova deck, so basically I have even more incentive to run Nova decks, as if I needed any.
Barracuda88;n10419702 said:
Well, with all due respect, it seems your maths is wrong. If you use Cahir, then you lose one other card from the golds (there are only 4 spots). Counting decoy, we still are at 10 cards milled. So, that means you need 2 tutor cards for a mill to get you to zero cards in 25 cards deck. To get mill an advantage, you need more tutors than that. That is, obviously with the perfect draw in the mill deck, which happen rarely, as mill deck normally does not thin to zero, but have 3-4 cards left (with all the card drawing cards played - if one has 1 of those cards in those not drawn cards, mill player cannot draw all those cards, leading to failure at milling and easy loss - typically at least 1 drawing card is not drawn - they are many).
Now, small hints - if you see mill, do not play your spy... discard it instead... Also, if you expect mill, play your cards smartly, so Sweers will get max 1 card (or zero) - you know, Sweers has to be played before any cards which cause card draw, so there is quite a bit of guessing the mill player has to do. Some folks call it skill, but it is mainly skill of the opponent as you give targets.
Finally, yes, if you use the ST dorfs, and *if* mill player has the right cards, mill is favoured (but not as much as you think in case of expert players). It is highly favoured, if you do not play really well in the round 2 (you should be getting rid of your tutor cards in that round), do not play around Sweers well and perhaps make an mistake with playing an extra spy with summoning circle if you run that card. But honestly, you can have 25 card list and win with mill 30-40% of time. If you think mill is a problem, you can also easily use 27 cards in that deck and the mill player is dead in the water, while your deck is just very slightly less consistent. With 27 cards you will win with mill archetype every single time - of course at a cost of losing a little bit more often with some decks which are thinning more aggressively.
Finally, I do not think that any deck should thin to zero cards without any help from the opponent - which is now the case for some popular decks. Those decks are unhealthy as when you play against them, it is almost always the same game, which is not that great - and as those decks are similar - it is getting boring very quickly. That is the case why ST dorfs are disliked - not only the deck thins efficiently, leading to you seeing the same cards (well, almost the whole deck) again and again, but additionally it is not very interactive - the ST just build their side of the board, with little regards to opponent actions and not much interactivity. So, there is not that much of meaningful stuff the opponent can do while playing, apart of the same standard actions, as there is little uncertainty about all the cards being played... On the other hand, when playing against decks which do not thin so much, one can hypothetise which cards the opponent has, which are in the deck and try to adjust strategy accordingly - uniquely in every game.
I lost quite a few matches against mill. But it`s my (hyper) thinning decks that suffer. THe decks that othewise would be most consistant.
I also won quite a few matches against them, with deckes that more relay on their own strenght than on the usual combo`s (reinforcement, ADC, marchiing orders, etc etc.).
I currently can`t say whether mill is in a good/bad spot. To me it feels kinda balanced, but maybe it`s different at other mmr levels.
I also won quite a few matches against them, with deckes that more relay on their own strenght than on the usual combo`s (reinforcement, ADC, marchiing orders, etc etc.).
I currently can`t say whether mill is in a good/bad spot. To me it feels kinda balanced, but maybe it`s different at other mmr levels.
I never said it is fun but these witchers are usually worth 12 points in a mill deck (5 + 7). And they only have 3 of those. Novices into Mahakam Ale is the only "decent" play. The point is I've never had any trouble not only out-tempo'ing mill but also then casually playing the bricked cards in my hand.
wojteks0;n10420002 said:
1. Not sure where the math is wrong. The fact that Cahir takes up a gold spot does not make the mill count any different. And it's not exactly a waste: you get to use your leader ability twice. 10 cards milled, plus 2 by Sweers (1 if you get the Sweers target in hand), which with cards played makes it 24 at minimum. 25 if Sweers pulls 2, 26 with a spy.
2. Is there a way to actually discard a card without like playing a card that let's you do that? I've never done it personally. You can run the timer down, but won't it discard a random card? Not sure about this one, honestly.
3. I think it's fairly easy for the Sweers' owner to figure out which card to "Sweers". Doesn't have to be dwarf deck. I had my Marksmen sent off, as well as Officers, Pros, you name it. Yeah, I could disguise the deck, but when they start with a slave driver into alchemist into potion you don't exactly know it's a mill deck yet at that point. Also, a statement that a 27-card deck is only slightly less consistent than a 25-card deck is just as unproven as the one about 27-card deck somehow winning "every time" against mill. I doubt both very much, but see no way to prove it without wasting a lot of time.
4. I generally thin hard, but I never thin down to zero. I think 5 cards in deck in round three is a good number to strive for.
Barracuda88;n10420292 said:
Yeah sure, just drop the card in the graveyard. Sometimes that`s the smart play when you have anything bricked or otherwise working against you... (looking at you scorch, haha). I learned this during the last midwinter challenge, where you had to discard to win.
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SoSaHer;n10420312 said:
Well, dang. Learned something new. Good to know, that. Thanks
Barracuda88;n10420292 said:
Well, you have 4 gold spots. Avallach + Renew + Shillard + 1 card. I calculated the total with Vilgefortz - you can exchange it with Cahir. In both cases it is 1 card, so adding Cahir and removing Vilgefortz does not change anything. So you get 6 cards from golds + Albrich + Stregobor + Decoy + Sweers. Honestly that is 10 cards max - if you get Sweered for more than 1 card, it is more your fault than anything else. So that leads to 23 cards... Not 26 as you stated.
However, the mill you describe, with witchers, does not run all those cards, because they almost auto-lose against anything else than hyper thinning decks. For example, I have just played against mill (version with witchers) with Eredin deck (4 tutor cards) and even though I had to discard one tutor in round two, I ended up the game easily winning with card advantage, drawing the last card at the beginning of round 3 (we both ended up with zero cards).