As I see, CDPR have has introduced another brainless deck with this patch. Now in every second match we have to see 5+ Waylays played in the same turn.
The Vanadain/Alissa/Simlas decks may be poorly balanced, they may be no fun (although that would be purely a matter of taste), but they are not brainless. Avoiding bricks, setting up supporting cards, timing big point slams, handling bleeding and other strategic issues arise that are not trivial.
I am absolutely frustrated with every other post criticizing so called “brainless” decks that are both hard to construct and hard to pilot. Instead of simply throwing out insults, I suggest actually analyzing why a card might be bad/OP and presenting a constructive argument.
The Vanadain/Alissa/Simlas decks may be poorly balanced, they may be no fun (although that would be purely a matter of taste), but they are not brainless. Avoiding bricks, setting up supporting cards, timing big point slams, handling bleeding and other strategic issues arise that are not trivial.
I am absolutely frustrated with every other post criticizing so called “brainless” decks that are both hard to construct and hard to pilot. Instead of simply throwing out insults, I suggest actually analyzing why a card might be bad/OP and presenting a constructive argument.
I honestly don't see what's hard to construct or pilot in this deck. I think it's super easy. Minor varieties in supplementary cards do not make any difference because 5-6 Waylays compensate for any minor mistakes the player might make in constructing or playing this deck.
I point out that all this combo is deploy-deploy-deploy, so the opponent cannot do much in their turn.
This combo usually plays for around 30-40 points in one turn, plus removal of at least a couple of units.
This month I have to tailor my decks to include one card for 6p removal and another card to banish from grave (or to include Vigo's Muzzle), specifically to deal with the extremely popular Waylay deck.
Yes, after a year on the shelf, the change that made Waylay a straight, non-conditional 6 for 4 suddenly made Vanadain worth playing. The nerve. Must hotfix!
On the topic of ST, personally I absolutely love the the waylay buff. I dislike most ST archetypes but elves are one of the few which I both like playing as and against. Already had an elf (trap) deck with Simlas+waylays which I was playing before the patch, needless to say it got massively buffed.
If you think the Simlas waylay wombo-combo is so bad, you really have to ask yourself, would you rather have this or Saskia redcoin abuse, or perhaps greedy annoying nature decks? If there is any ST deck I want in the meta it would be this one.
On the topic of ST, personally I absolutely love the the waylay buff. I dislike most ST archetypes but elves are one of the few which I both like playing as and against. Already had an elf (trap) deck with Simlas+waylays which I was playing before the patch, needless to say it got massively buffed.
If you think the Simlas waylay wombo-combo is so bad, you really have to ask yourself, would you rather have this or Saskia redcoin abuse, or perhaps greedy annoying nature decks? If there is any ST deck I want in the meta it would be this one.
It's only the first week after the patch, after a completely DEAD season for ST, and the patch only buffed one archetype. So yes, that's what ST players are going to play, because that's the one deck that has a chance at the meta, though that said, I did see other ST decks this months, as well. Wild hunt is predominant for MO right now, because it's been buffed, and firesworn for SY for the same reason.
Well i think 2 or 3 seasons ago, in The patch notes i said Alisson Henson with vanadain and simlas would be meta.
People laugh at me in that moment.
Yes, i wasnt totally right, since that combo didnt be the meta i thought it could be. But now, with a "simple" buff in waylay this combo would be problably meta right now
It's only the first week after the patch, after a completely DEAD season for ST, and the patch only buffed one archetype. So yes, that's what ST players are going to play, because that's the one deck that has a chance at the meta, though that said, I did see other ST decks this months, as well. Wild hunt is predominant for MO right now, because it's been buffed, and firesworn for SY for the same reason.
That ain't no buff for WH. Red Riders is weaker now than it was before and so it winter queen. So 2 buffs and 2 nerfs to the gold cards. I won't even mention the bronze because they weren't even playable before and they still aren't so nothing changed really.
That ain't no buff for WH. Red Riders is weaker now than it was before and so it winter queen. So 2 buffs and 2 nerfs to the gold cards. I won't even mention the bronze because they weren't even playable before and they still aren't so nothing changed really.
Not sure what 2 nerfs you mean to the golds? Red riders is bronze, no? And I'm not crazy about this rework, because replaying wild hunt bronze is clunky, but would I call it a nerf? Nah. You can find those 4 points of frost you lost. It's certainly played more now, in the first week of the patch, than it was before. Nor would I call the queen rework "a nerf." Are you mourning the loss of thrive? Have you ever seen her above 6? I personally have not, and now she still doesn't get above 6, but now she's a lot more threatening, almost like a unit version of mahakam horn, preventing you from passing when you want and requiring removal.
On the subject of Wild Hunt I concur with many other players who pointed out before that the buff to this archetype is questionable. Couple of useful cards were (arguably) nerfed. Overall, this patch makes WH maybe just a little bit stronger, but nowhere near to make it to the meta.
The Vanadain/Alissa/Simlas decks may be poorly balanced, they may be no fun (although that would be purely a matter of taste), but they are not brainless. Avoiding bricks, setting up supporting cards, timing big point slams, handling bleeding and other strategic issues arise that are not trivial.
I am absolutely frustrated with every other post criticizing so called “brainless” decks that are both hard to construct and hard to pilot. Instead of simply throwing out insults, I suggest actually analyzing why a card might be bad/OP and presenting a constructive argument.
In fairness, I was finally able to construct and test a Vanadain deck. It was hard to construct (but I don’t particularly like special card archetypes), and while I would not call it easy to pilot, it was not particularly difficult (probably about midway in difficulty of the decks I’ve played). I will say that playing it reveals numerous weaknesses — I will discuss these in another post when I have time to make it.
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I observed the following weaknesses in a Vanadain deck (mine uses Renew, but not Vernossiel):
1. It is very dependent upon the “correct” draw order for Vanadain, Alissa, and Simlas — for this I really needed both Call of the Forest and Royal Decree. You might be able to get by with Oneiromancy instead, but I don’t think anything less would be consistent.
2. The deck has one good play — Simlas into 3-5 Waylays (dependent upon draws, what I can set up, and opponent’s ability to mill my deck). This yields 20-32 points which is not the most OP combo out there. Vernossiel versions have a second good play with Vernossiel, but this play is often in the same round as Simlas and not needed. And including Vernossiel probably means giving up either Renew or a Tutor.
3. Without Vanadain, Waylay is still low tempo. Typically I play two from hand.
4. The deck struggles against heavy distributed removal. If Isengrim and Yaevinn are denied value, carrying a second round is difficult.
5. Engine heavy decks are also problematic. Nearly all my control is in the form of two and three point pings. I have used Malena In some emergency situations, but often my only recourse is either passing or premature use of Simlas. Both leave me vulnerable in later rounds.
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Finally, be aware that Vanadain decks can come in many flavors. At its most basic level, the Vanadain deck only “requires” 5 cards (Vanadain, Alissa, Simlas, and two Waylay) with a total provision count of 34. This is only slightly above average provision cost for 5 cards (which is about 33). Thus “Vanadain” should probably be viewed as a package more than an archetype.
Absence of Venossiel is a weakness for this deck. You can generate many deadeyes with Vanadain&Waylays + 3 more with leader ability, so she is almost a must. My version of this deck also has renew and on the drawback I have a bit shittier bronzes that are pulled in R1 by Saskia Commander.
And I have tutors to pull all those cards, of course. Where would modern Gwent be without tutors... (sigh)
2. The deck has one good play — Simlas into 3-5 Waylays (dependent upon draws, what I can set up, and opponent’s ability to mill my deck). This yields 20-32 points which is not the most OP combo out there.
Absence of Venossiel is a weakness for this deck. You can generate many deadeyes with Vanadain&Waylays + 3 more with leader ability, so she is almost a must. My version of this deck also has renew and on the drawback I have a bit shittier bronzes that are pulled in R1 by Saskia Commander.
This is definitely evidence of how drastically Vanadain decks can differ. Upon reflection, I should probably substitute Vernossiel for my Triss Telekinesis (I originally included her hoping to greed out 7+ Waylays with Simlas, but after playing, I realized this was highly unlikely and will only occur in matches I would win anyway). But working in Saskia would totally change the deck. I have no other “obvious” provisions, and I only have 5 distinct tags.
Including Saskia would totally change the play of the deck. I believe the strategic round one goals would be very different — I am quite willing to lose the round if my opponent commits his high tempo cards to do so —and usually I can force this. I suspect a Saskia deck is more all-in in round 1.
This is definitely evidence of how drastically Vanadain decks can differ. Upon reflection, I should probably substitute Vernossiel for my Triss Telekinesis (I originally included her hoping to greed out 7+ Waylays with Simlas, but after playing, I realized this was highly unlikely and will only occur in matches I would win anyway). But working in Saskia would totally change the deck. I have no other “obvious” provisions, and I only have 5 distinct tags.
Including Saskia would totally change the play of the deck. I believe the strategic round one goals would be very different — I am quite willing to lose the round if my opponent commits his high tempo cards to do so —and usually I can force this. I suspect a Saskia deck is more all-in in round 1.
Yes, renew is meme in my opinion (a really good meme, but still a meme - again, in my opinion).
For the discussion about snowdrop or alessa, i prefer alessa, but If i can ask, i want to know your arguments to prefer snowdrop.
For me alessa is better for this points:
- you can use The waylays created in The same round you play vanadain and get 9 points per waylay (If vanadain dont die/lock, of course).
- you dont need to get alessa in The same round as vanadain. You can use her in laters round.
- she is "cheaper" than snowdrop and have The "same" points (usually both play for 6, of course snowdrop can play for more, but usually in this deck no).
My arguments why snowdrop would be better (but I still prefer alessa).
- If you have The 3 cards in hand (venadain + snowdrop/alessa + simlas) you can make a huge combo in The same rounf. Buuut, snowdrop combo is quicker (since you dont need to play waylays) and The full combo with alessa in The same turn you will problably full your rows).
- If vanadain dies/lock with snowdrop you have more consistent to trade 2 "dead" waylay and dont need to play them.
But why i think alessa is better? Because in fact i like to play those waylays with vanadain. They are 9 points and i think 9 points is really good for any card
Yes, renew is meme in my opinion (a really good meme, but still a meme - again, in my opinion).
For the discussion about snowdrop or alessa, i prefer alessa, but If i can ask, i want to know your arguments to prefer snowdrop.
For me alessa is better for this points:
- you can use The waylays created in The same round you play vanadain and get 9 points per waylay (If vanadain dont die/lock, of course).
- you dont need to get alessa in The same round as vanadain. You can use her in laters round.
- she is "cheaper" than snowdrop and have The "same" points (usually both play for 6, of course snowdrop can play for more, but usually in this deck no).
My arguments why snowdrop would be better (but I still prefer alessa).
- If you have The 3 cards in hand (venadain + snowdrop/alessa + simlas) you can make a huge combo in The same rounf. Buuut, snowdrop combo is quicker (since you dont need to play waylays) and The full combo with alessa in The same turn you will problably full your rows).
- If vanadain dies/lock with snowdrop you have more consistent to trade 2 "dead" waylay and dont need to play them.
But why i think alessa is better? Because in fact i like to play those waylays with vanadain. They are 9 points and i think 9 points is really good for any card
You basically summed it up pretty well here. I prefer Snowdrop, because I prefer not to play Waylays from hand. It's definitely a valid option, but to me, the more natural way to pilot the deck is to lean on the two heavies: Feign Death and Vana-Snow-Simlas combo to win a round. So I generally only put down Vanadain if I have access to the other two in the same round, and if I don't, I play FD. Survival rate on Vanadain is not great, imo, so Snowdrop is safer. Also, it can improve the hand if needed. But if Vanadain DOES survive, then you still get those 9 points, but it's slamming faster this way, though at the cost of a bit harder, less flexible, and therefore a bit less consistent setup.
I have to admit that I jumped very fast to PRO rank with a Vanadain (Renew + Alissa Henson combo) combined with Simlas and the Elf package.
Probably old waylay (3 for 4 plus deathblow condition 6 for 4 + elfen deadeye synergy) was too weak.
I would adjust it as following:
Damage an enemy unit by 3.
Deathblow: Spawn an Elven Deadeye in a random row.
Devotion: Always trigger deathblow
=> From my perspective cards like Allissa Henson, Oneiromancy and Renew make this combo so problematic. Players would need other thinning and tutoring tools if they want the devotion reward. So Call of the Forest might be an appropriate choice for them. Additionally, they will challenge getting a huge Simlas combo in round 2 or 3.
=> For further patches I could also imagine some SC specific graveyard manipulators.
e.g. Elfen Attacker
Provision 4 Power 4
Deploy (Melee): Gain vitality dependent on the total numbers of Elven Deadeyes in this row
Deploy (Ranged): If your graveyard contains two or more of the same bronze special card, spawn an additional one in your deck.
I could even imagine having engine based gold cards which can move bronze specials from the graveyard to the deck each round.
=> At least for now, I consider this SC deck to be too strong
Now in every second match we have to see 5+ Waylays played in the same turn.
