Perspective Thread: Third Person vs First Person debate goes HERE.

[Restlessdingo32]

I honestly think too much weight gets placed into the player perspective. There are positives and negatives to FPP, TPP or having access to both. Valid arguments could be made for any of the above. The overall selling point is the game play, IMO. If the game play is interesting, dynamic, well constructed and draws me in the perspective is immaterial.

 

[Mebrilia]

And that is a concerning too i am not in fact shunning FPP but FPP only is good for some kind of game and FPP always been underwhelming for rpg.. You can see yourself usually FPP roleplay games are old school dungeon crawlers or rpg where world interaction and customization is quite limited.

 

[gogmeister777]

... unless you really think players will be happy with animations that look off or bad in one perspective or the other?

Yes, animations are important to me and, I suspect, quite a few others here.

I recently played a bit of Fallout 4 again after heavily modding my character. Whilst they looked pretty good, the moment I went to TPP to see them 'in action', I immediately regretted it. I'd forgotten just how poor the animations were. Even the facial expressions in dialogue and the fidgeting about the character does is fairly awkward.

Not that I'm saying that CDPR would have animations of that.....er, quality :s

 

[Snowflakez]

I strongly disagree one of the key 4 point of cyberpunk is style over substance and is not only tied to the way your character act but also how is looking cool doing that.. Is a world where what you dress can give you a totally different impression.

That's all fine, you can disagree (for what it's worth, I agree with a lot of your points). I'm just telling you the reason they aren't making it an option. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Sardukhar]

And that is a concerning too i am not in fact shunning FPP but FPP only is good for some kind of game and FPP always been underwhelming for rpg..

Nah. I played Bloodlines pretty much exclusively in FPP on my Toreador playthrough, my first and favourite ( no melee) and it was great. Just great.

You can play BL only in FPP and have one of the best RPG experiences anywhere. Ever.

I did it again on my Tremere playthrough. Still awesome.

Given how clumsy melee was in TPP on Bloodlines, it made playing my Brujah and Malkavian much more meh. My Gangrel was still fun, but the TPP claw attack was cool enough to offset the Third Person out-of-body jarring effect.

It's really meant as a FPP game.

Here's the Steam description: "Vampire®: The Masquerade-Bloodlines™ delivers a new type of RPG experience-one that blends all the core elements of a traditional RPG with the graphical richness, immediacy and brutal combat of a first-person action game. "

And here's a post from TEN YEARS ago, when FPP was of course the go-to perspective. How times change.

"I know most of you would rather play 1st person perspective games. But I, however am a diehard fanatic when it comes to playing 3rd person perspective... Call me vain or whatever you want. I love seeing my character in action (ALL the time). I appreciated Troika for making melee combat 3rd person at least. However, there is no way I will be able to fire guns from the hip in 3rd person. "

So, no, FPP has not always been underwhelming for RPG. TPP is the new player and it has many flaws.

 

[Mebrilia]

That's all fine, you can disagree (for what it's worth, I agree with a lot of your points). I'm just telling you the reason they aren't making it an option. Don't shoot the messenger.

Not shooting here at all just attempting to explain my points..

And yes Sard but also bloodline was also TPP the game could had benefit from a longer development cycle it had a great atmosphere and was actually pretty glitchy good but no character customization again.

Not sure i agree TPP is the new player and it has many flaws.. TPP allows for more variety of movements dynamic positioning and better interaction that FPP doesn't allow also talking about bloodlines the melee was in third person but we also have to compare the tecnology of the past to the one of today..

FPP is good for a certain kind of game but in a game where you are supposed to create your character and customization and style will be always underwhelming.. looking cool is part of the setting? Not so quite unless i can glitter and paint my nails and while being awesome to do in the end would still end to restrain customization.

And yes it restrain customization and is a bit of let down in a game where you are supposed to create your character is also why most FPP rpg have limited customization and pretty much all of them have a set protagonist unless they are dungeon crawlers party based rpg.

Most of the past RPG went also FPP because at the time there was not enough cool tecnology for a proper TPP. And in a rpg like Cyberpunk 2077 is supposed to be i would rather take a clumsy or not perfect TPP than a forced FPP any day also because FPP in majority of game is prospectively wrong and that for me is immersion breaking.

 

[BaalNergal]

Not shooting here at all just attempting to explain my points..

And yes Sard but also bloodline was also TPP the game could had benefit from a longer development cycle it had a great atmosphere and was actually pretty glitchy good but no character customization again.

Not sure i agree TPP is the new player and it has many flaws.. TPP allows for more variety of movements dynamic positioning and better interaction that FPP doesn't allow also talking about bloodlines the melee was in third person but we also have to compare the tecnology of the past to the one of today..

FPP is good for a certain kind of game but in a game where you are supposed to create your character and customization and style.. looking cool is part of the setting? Not so quite unless i can glitter and paint my nails and while being awesome to do in the end would still end to restrain customization.

And yes it restrain customization and is a bit of let down in a game where you are supposed to create your character is also why most FPP rpg have limited customization and pretty much all of them have a set protagonist unless they are dungeon crawlers party based rpg.

Most of the past RPG went also FPP because at the time there was not enough cool tecnology for a proper TPP. And in a rpg like Cyberpunk 2077 is supposed to be i would rather take a clumsy or not perfect TPP than a forced FPP any day.

In all seriousness? Technology hasn't advanced much since the days of Bloodlines, as games like Skyrim show. Yes, the animations are slightly better, but not anywhere close to what they could be. Plus, TPP can seriously interfere with shooting.

 

[Mebrilia]

In all seriousness? Technology hasn't advanced much since the days of Bloodlines, as games like Skyrim show. Yes, the animations are slightly better, but not anywhere close to what they could be. Plus, TPP can seriously interfere with shooting.

Skyrim is a bad example to take in consideration there are plenty of third person rpgs were the character moves extremely good and have great animation as well.. And again nobody here is talking about not wanting FPP at the countrary we just want a toggle between the two.

This is not an FPS is a roleplaying game where you are supposed to create your character were the setting explains is important to look cool while you are doing cool stuff..

And i don't get the same if i am forced in a prospectively wrong underwhelming visual for customization that reastrain what is a big part of cyberpunk.

Skyrim is a game of 2011 and bethesda is using the same engine since oblivion. Heck even arma 3 has a better third person visual than skyrim.

And about shooting there are game that are fantastic shooters and are in third person and is pretty sure that melee in first person is always underwhelming.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

And yes Sard but also bloodline was also TPP the game could had benefit from a longer development cycle it had a great atmosphere and was actually pretty glitchy good but no character customization again.

Bloodlines had a VERY troubled dev cycle. Very. It was good because it was lucky to have such good developers for it to salvage what was left to salvage.

 

[BaalNergal]

Skyrim is a bad example to take in consideration there are plenty of third person rpgs were the character moves extremely good and have great animation as well.. And again nobody here is talking about not wanting FPP at the countrary we just want a toggle between the two.

This is not an FPS is a roleplaying game where you are supposed to create your character were the setting explains is important to look cool while you are doing cool stuff..

And i don't get the same if i am forced in a prospectively wrong underwhelming visual for customization that reastrain what is a big part of cyberpunk.

Skyrim is a game of 2011 and bethesda is using the same engine since oblivion. Heck even arma 3 has a better third person visual than skyrim.

Skyrim is a good example for one particular reason: It shows the problem never went away.

There were games prior to Bloodlines with great TPP action. The Zelda series, for example, has always excelled in TPP when 3D.

And they all suffered from the same problem: TPP is simply bad for using firearms. You can't use a scope or aim down the sights in TPP; it has to switch to FPP to be useful. Unfortunately, when you design a game around two perspectives, which one you focus more resources on depends on which one you feel will be more used; for a firearm-heavy game, this means you need FPP working far more than TPP. Thus, games with both perspectives and heavy gunplay tend to focus more on FPP than TPP and have a lacking TPP.

You see this result in Bloodlines. And in Skyrim, as an unintended consequence of an engine intended primarily for Fallout.

Another aspect, and one not discussed as much, is camera bugs. Toggle perspective games are very prone to buggy cameras; even the best examples I've seen mentioned have noted unpatchable camera glitches that the players simply have to learn to live with and work around. GTA, Skyrim, Fallout, Bloodlines; it doesn't matter. The problem has not gone away since the days of Bloodlines, and by all evidence simply won't due to inherent limitations of our technology.

And before someone argues CDPR can do it: They've never done a toggle perspective before, and have made it clear this time around they are not willing to try it in base game beyond driving. So anything they do after this with a toggle will be an tacked-on option the game's engine wasn't designed to handle, and thus guaranteed to be buggy and unsatisfying.

So, pretty much, TPP has to be a base-game focus from the very beginning if you want to avoid another Skyrim. Unfortunately, take one look at the issue of TPP and using firearms to see why it is they had incentive not to go that path.

This is not to say FPP is inherently superior. Just that, for a game as firearms-heavy as CP2077 is going to be, there are parts of the game where TPP will be literally useless, and that helps explain why it is CDPR decided to put all of their efforts into the perspective they need working and not the one that is of lesser importance for this particular game. Just like they did with the Witcher series and TPP.

As for seeing your character: Even Doom 3 had working mirrors. It's not that hard for you to see your character while in FPP if they put in the effort.

 

[Sardukhar]

As for seeing your character: Even Doom 3 had working mirrors. It's not that hard for you to see your character while in FPP if they put in the effort.

Which they've said they'd do. Lots of places to see your character apparently.

Also, these:

Can you see your own limbs, etc? Perspective on own body?

June 16/18 Kyle Rowley: "We have it. If you look down you can see your body and legs. We also show it when vaulting, sliding "

Can we see hands when shooting, etc?

June 16/18 Kyle Rowley: "Yes, although we have different poses depending on the weapon of course."

So we will be seeing our limbs.

 

[Mebrilia]

Sadly that's doen't mean much sard..

Conan exiles had a first person that you could see your legs and if you aimed upward with the bow you would notice your shoulders were visible at the top corner of the screen.

The fact you can see the lower body dosn't mean the cam is in the head.

 

[Sardukhar]

The fact you can see the lower body dosn't mean the cam is in the head.

I never said that it did. It's just a nice thing to see.

Your cam-in-head issue isn't a problem for me. I don't know if it's a very common issue - I don't recall having heard of it before.

Playing F4 tonight, the cam seems in a fine place - and the only time the weapon is square in front of me is while aiming, a la Weaver stance. I look right down the rear sight to the front sight, at roughly arm's length from my head in front of my monitor. Just fine.

I have no real problem with the cam location in FPP games.

 

[Snowflakez]

So, one thing I super don't agree with is the notion that you can't have excellent shooting in TPP... because it's categorically false. It's been done, and it continues to be done.

Not to mention, what is satisfactory to some may not be so for others. Super subjective.

So, by all means, let's argue about how FPP or TPP does or doesn't fit 2077, but maybe avoid the blanket "it doesn't work for XYZ" because such hardline statements are rarely accurate.

Gears of War felt great. GTA V felt great. So did Just Cause, Max Payne, Warframe...

Seriously, I can go on.

I'm not saying TPP was better than FPP in those games (although it probably was, since the developers chose to go that route for a reason), but it most certainly wasn't worse. Not objectively, anyway.

Bottom line: CDPR did not choose FPP for the game because TPP "didn't feel right" for things like shooting, they chose it because they want players to feel the scale and immersion of the city on a more personal level (don't fully agree with that explanation, but I understand it). Furthermore, even if they did choose it for that reason, their decisions aren't gospel for the entire industry.

 

[Sardukhar]

SBottom line: CDPR did not choose FPP for the game because TPP "didn't feel right" for things like shooting,

This you don't know. I would bet that was, in fact, a big part of the reason.

And in terms of their decisions being gospel for the industry, they are pretty good at what they do. In their forums, arguing other developers know better about design decisions, myeh, not really gonna fly. I obviously disagree.

I certainly found the shooting in the games you mentioned more clumsy than FPP. Watch Dogs was fun though. The others, very meh for controls.

From a controls perspective, clumsy FPP vs TPP isn't a lot different, no. Those games are controller games.

The snap-reflexes of mouse and keyboard shooting are so much more precise, you can't even have the competitors against each other.

And for competitive, high-accuracy, non-randomized damage shooting games, well, FPS is the standard for a reason.

 

[Trazon]

The thing I see with Perspective, is that it all takes in consideration of the Perspective and setting of the game itself, Witcher 3 TPP felt right to me, FPP would have felt off and on the whole wrong, I love both for what they are.

Now for Bethesda games, I have always played in FPP, unless I am taking screenshots or random moment's. But like all Bethesda games it suffers from, shared Love of FPP/TPP when if they had focused on one or the other it would have been amazing.

Dishonered was a amazing FPP to me, and would have felt Horrid in TPP, Just down right would not have fit the setting, Games Like Dishonered/S.T.A.L.K.E.R/Dark Messiah/ Dues Ex/etc felt Right, anything else in my most honest of opinion would have taken away of the subject and feeling of the setting and game-world.

Outside of Bethesda games, we literally have only a small handfull of TPP rpg's Bioware games are the only ones I can think of atm, sorry. Again they all "Feel" Right for the setting. (Though in all Honesty, would love a Space Opera FPP Rpg, traveling the tight corridors of Station's and Ships.) Would love to hear feedback on this.

 

[Snowflakez]

This you don't know. I would bet that was, in fact, a big part of the reason.

No, I don't know. But it's not the reason we were given, and I'm not going to make assumptions about what they may or may not be thinking in a discussion such as this one. Better to work with the facts we have.

And in terms of their decisions being gospel for the industry, they are pretty good at what they do. In their forums, arguing other developers know better about design decisions, myeh, not really gonna fly. I obviously disagree.

Well, I didn't say other developers know better about design decisions. No one developer, whether we are on their forum or not, is perfect. I'd say the same thing on Bethesda's forums. CDPR is not perfect, and their reasoning for their specific game, even if it is 100% perfect, does not necessarily extend to the rest of the industry.

It's fine if you felt the games I mentioned were clumsy. But a hell of a lot of other people found them to be excellent. *shrug* This is my point. It's subjective. There's no "this is objectively better for X" outside of maybe competitive games.

So I bristle when people say there is a "Better" or "worse" because it inevitably becomes "well, I think it feels better because X, or I think it feels worse because Y," which is just not a great way to try to convince people of anything. In my opinion. We can certainly have opinion-focused talks (kind of the point of forums), but that specific argument has just worn thin for me.

My intention... to clarify... is not to spark a big ol' discussion about other devs and the very nature of TPP and FPP in those games. In fact, I want to do the opposite, because I'd prefer to focus on why FPP or TPP is better or worse for CP2077, not every other game on the planet.

But that's just me.

 

[BaalNergal]

So, one thing I super don't agree with is the notion that you can't have excellent shooting in TPP... because it's categorically false. It's been done, and it continues to be done.

Not to mention, what is satisfactory to some may not be so for others. Super subjective.

So, by all means, let's argue about how FPP or TPP does or doesn't fit 2077, but maybe avoid the blanket "it doesn't work for XYZ" because such hardline statements are rarely accurate.

Gears of War felt great. GTA V felt great. So did Just Cause, Max Payne, Warframe...

Seriously, I can go on.

I'm not saying TPP was better than FPP in those games (although it probably was, since the developers chose to go that route for a reason), but it most certainly wasn't worse. Not objectively, anyway.

Bottom line: CDPR did not choose FPP for the game because TPP "didn't feel right" for things like shooting, they chose it because they want players to feel the scale and immersion of the city on a more personal level (don't fully agree with that explanation, but I understand it). Furthermore, even if they did choose it for that reason, their decisions aren't gospel for the entire industry.

Every single example you gave of "great TPP shooting" was actually a hybrid of TPP and FPP. Gears of War, you used FPP during parts. Same with GTA, Just Cause, Max Payne, Warframe, Mass Effect... every single one of those, there were points where in shooting you went straight to FPP.

Yes, they likely chose FPP for shooting because it felt right. Just like every single example you mentioned used FPP for the parts where TPP simply cannot do it.

So, yes. It remains a fact that, with shooting, there are areas where TPP is useless and there is no game that is a true TPP shooter.

 

[Snowflakez]

Every single example you gave of "great TPP shooting" was actually a hybrid of TPP and FPP. Gears of War, you used FPP during parts. Same with GTA, Just Cause, Max Payne, Warframe, Mass Effect... every single one of those, there were points where in shooting you went straight to FPP.

...What on earth are you talking about? I don't mean to be rude, I'm just genuinely confused.

 

[Mebrilia]

The thing I see with Perspective, is that it all takes in consideration of the Perspective and setting of the game itself, Witcher 3 TPP felt right to me, FPP would have felt off and on the whole wrong, I love both for what they are.

Now for Bethesda games, I have always played in FPP, unless I am taking screenshots or random moment's. But like all Bethesda games it suffers from, shared Love of FPP/TPP when if they had focused on one or the other it would have been amazing.

Dishonered was a amazing FPP to me, and would have felt Horrid in TPP, Just down right would not have fit the setting, Games Like Dishonered/S.T.A.L.K.E.R/Dark Messiah/ Dues Ex/etc felt Right, anything else in my most honest of opinion would have taken away of the subject and feeling of the setting and game-world.

Outside of Bethesda games, we literally have only a small handfull of TPP rpg's Bioware games are the only ones I can think of atm, sorry. Again they all "Feel" Right for the setting. (Though in all Honesty, would love a Space Opera FPP Rpg, traveling the tight corridors of Station's and Ships.) Would love to hear feedback on this.

I strongly disagree those games you posted while being fantastic games had a very construct fpp this mean cam is not in the head but is exclusively at the chest height Dishonored in fact to me. felt really gamey and not natural at all and none of the games you mentioned have custom character creator or an acceptable ammount of customization..

To make you an example a game that aimed to have an almost realistic first person view was mirror's edge and also still there when the character had a weapon in hand like a pistol got it prospectively wrong like if the arm with the pistol where popping out from the side of the character head.. I am going to use a vignette to explain it.

Also i don't think for this Cyberpunk game that is based on the pen and paper feels right to be FPP only... Is a game were you will have ton of customization because looking cool is part of the setting now you can agree with me that for looking cool the first person is the worst choice one can make since you will stare at your hands all the time.


My problem with most of the fpp games around is that they make a first person prospectively wrong that ends to be dealbreaker for me.

And i still think FPP is not an optimal choice at all in a rpg were you are supposed to create your character because it cripples customization and make it pointless... I really doubt you will be able to interact with the world so much because FPP gives also this problem.

Again scale of the city and verticality are not valid exactly how is more immersive the game is forced fpp only (subjective) as argument either if you implement both FPP TPP and it looks great and better because i could be able to see my character and how looks cool how while walking on the strees (Very Cyberpunk feel) even in TPP and fits at the point i am actually surprised some people consider that fluff in a game based on Cyberpunk 2020 pen and paper rpg.

Even GTAV has a FPP now and despite many dislike what i am going to say the FPP in GTAV is way better prospectively talking than every modern shooter around falling with is is supreme.

The true first person is VR that at the moment is still early in development for deliver and when you make an rpg for a setting like Cyberpunk and you force it to be FPP you kill part of the setting.

By crippling customization

By telling the players: Sorry guys i know it woulld be super cool to see your character walking around night city how you designed and dressed it and perfectly fitting the spirit of the pen and paper but we think is more immersive FPP.