Romances: Disparity in quality and quantity

[Iosephus]

I've enjoyed the majority of Bioware's games, and I think overall, they have improved the way they incorporate romance into their games and in many ways, led the industry in that department. However, I think Bioware's party-based approach to their games makes it easier for them to implement their romances more equally. Specifically, Bioware games typically introduce the player to the majority of romantic options in the very beginning of the game, and then from there, you're given a chance to build a relationship with one of the romantic interests. It's a great method to create relationships in the game, but it can also be seen as a bit formulaic.

Cyberpunk 2077, on the other hand, introduces the romantic interests in a more organic manner. You meet Judy in the beginning, Panam and River in the middle, and Kerry towards the end, dependent on the story unfolding. Some of the characters are more involved with the main quest (Judy and Panam), one is related to Johnny's character (Kerry), and one is involved in a separate side plot (River).

I think because it's done in this manner, it's probably a bit more difficult trying to give the same amount of content for each character. Especially for River, I think a legitimate concern for a writer is how to give him more content without detracting too much from the main plot. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm just trying to look at this subject from a variety of angles.

At a glance, each romance in Cyberpunk 2077 starts once the character in question wraps up their personal arc. Judy's romance starts after dealing with Clouds, Panam's romance culminates as she reunites with her clan and becomes co-leader, River's romance begins once he's had a moment to breathe after saving his nephew, and Kerry's blossoms after dealing with Us Cracks.

Panam's storyline in particular was written with moments that allowed for flirtation to occur (staying at a hotel, abandoned house, campfire, etc.). In contrast, I can completely understand why most of Judy's storyline doesn't offer much flirtation because of the tragedy she experiences. River's questline also doesn't leave much for flirtation because he's clearly stressed while trying to locate his nephew. Like Panam, Kerry's quest isn't as stressing as Judy's or Rivers, so there are moments of levity (like when he jokingly invites you to bed if you talk to him shortly after meeting him, or having a touching moment with him after the concert).

Perhaps there are ways it could've been improved, but I thought each of the romances in Cyberpunk 2077 played out in a manner that felt in-line with each character's personality and circumstances.

 

[larrackell]

The difference is that with BioWare you have more options to choose from and they all have equal or close to equal amounts of content to properly develop said romances. And as we already discussed, proper development is something that Kerry's and River's romances noticeably lack.

Yes, this. If you're going to have four romance options, all four romance options need more-or-less the same amount of content (or at least feel like it). It doesn't have to be all the same or everyone having the same impact on the story, but they need to have the same care and attention given so that they can all be satisfying.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I hope the first major expansion will be about romances and rebalance that.
Because I would like that all the players have the same feeling than me about their romance (and Judy):
Oh godamnit ! CDPR, you rock ! It's soooo good
If I have one thing to remember in particular about Cyberpunk, it's not the story, not the city (even if it's gorgeous), not the gameplay, it is absolutely Judy... Pyramid Song is unforgettable for me.
Sadly, I'm not sure it's the same for those who romance River

 

[Alekzie]

If I have one thing to remember in particular about Cyberpunk, it's not the story, not the city (even if it's gorgeous), not the gameplay, it is absolutely Judy... Pyramid Song is unforgettable for me.
Sadly, I'm not sure it's the same for those who romance River

This. This makes me feel bad for players who were expecting balanced romances, and then when they met River or Kerry they didn't experience the same beautiful things.
If CDPR wanted to make things balanced, they'd introduce a male character (or modify River's or Kerry's story) to have more involvement in the main story, like Judy and Panam did.
It was hard to miss the ladies and develop more feelings over time because you got more time to invest yourself in the relationship with them, whether it was a romantic of friendly one. Kerry and River can be easily missed cause they show up in side missions, and you barely have time to know them and all of sudden you fancy each other. Almost at the very end of the game. Man, pacing is important too

 

[Guest 4412420]

At a glance, each romance in Cyberpunk 2077 starts once the character in question wraps up their personal arc. Judy's romance starts after dealing with Clouds, Panam's romance culminates as she reunites with her clan and becomes co-leader, River's romance begins once he's had a moment to breathe after saving his nephew, and Kerry's blossoms after dealing with Us Cracks.

Panam's storyline in particular was written with moments that allowed for flirtation to occur (staying at a hotel, abandoned house, campfire, etc.). In contrast, I can completely understand why most of Judy's storyline doesn't offer much flirtation because of the tragedy she experiences. River's questline also doesn't leave much for flirtation because he's clearly stressed while trying to locate his nephew. Like Panam, Kerry's quest isn't as stressing as Judy's or Rivers, so there are moments of levity (like when he jokingly invites you to bed if you talk to him shortly after meeting him, or having a touching moment with him after the concert).

River's case (heh) is definitely the most complicated one given how intense his questline is.

It's understandable why flirting with Judy isn't an option while you're searching for Evelyn, it would've been incredibly inappropriate. The whole situation with Clouds is pretty serious too, but CDPR found a way to get around this and simply added a sufficient amount of dialogue to make up for it in Judy's final quest. Even if there's nothing in the previous quests it still feels organic.

Panam's personal storyline has 3 quests, so I get why there's a romance specific dialogue option in one main quest she's involved in. Her story is also not as tense as River's, so I understand why her romance specific dialogues are spread out throughout multiple quests and not put together in a single quest like Judy's. It works better for her romance this way.

Kerry's personal questline isn't very tense either, so I don't think it would have been off if his romance was treated like Panam's, but If CDPR felt that it was more right for Kerry's character to handle his romance like Judy's and let V flirt with Kerry only in his last quests, I would have been a-okay with that. The problem is, they didn't, because unlike Judy's romance, there's no more dialogue in his final quest. There's actually less romance specific dialogue in his final quest than on that rooftop.

River's situation is more difficult, but I think some light flirting during I Fought the Law would have been okay. It certainly would have helped his "I missed you" feel like it doesn't come out of nowhere. I think that despite how intense The Hunt is, they could have fit something very lowkey in. Maybe V saying that they're there for River no matter what, and make it exclusive to V with a feminine body type. Romance dialogue doesn't have to be "OMG River you're so hot, bend me over the nearest surface right now!" But if my suggestion doesn't work, they could have treated his romance like Judy's, but again they didn't.

CDPR found a workaround for Judy's romance to make it work despite her questline having some tense and serious moments, but they didn't extend the same courtesy for Kerry's and River's romances, even if the same methods they used for the romances with the girls could have been applied for the guys as well.

 

[CTPhipps]

It's notable that part of the issue is the fact they chose not to include romances for Goro and other characters.

It was an artistic choice in the case of Goro that they didn't think romance would be appropriate and that cost the balance.

 

[larrackell]

It was an artistic choice in the case of Goro that they didn't think romance would be appropriate and that cost the balance.

The lack of a Takemura romance is due to lack of resources and time, according to Philipp Weber.

 

[CTPhipps]

The lack of a Takemura romance is due to lack of resources and time, according to Philipp Weber.

I stand corrected.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

For me the big problem about Kerry and even more for River is the lack of time.
This is also why I think it will be corrected later

For Kerry, it feel it's not finish, even if we don't romance him.
-Normally, we know directly that he is not really interested in women in the first memory of Johnny, but also we can "test" on the roof. So on the boat, normally it's useless to "try again", but even if we say nothing when we help him with "the bar", he says a weird thing like "No it's going to be fine, V, thank you", as if you had tried to flirt.
-And when we watch the boat burn, he offers to bring you back. If you say yes, you are "magically" teleported to Japan Town.

For River, it's even worse, "The Hunt" is for me one of the most Buggy quests in the game (before 1.23). Between the NPCs that River crushes, the car he explodes on his way to the farm and the music / sounds that do not launch or play indefinitely... It's even worse.

Basically, for Kerry and even more for River, it's like CDPR must finish the quests as fast as possible and maybe even cutting parts/dialogues to make it look quite good before the release. But it's only my impression, maybe I'm wrong

 

[Anwell]

The lack of a Takemura romance is due to lack of resources and time, according to Philipp Weber.

And it's such a shame. Goro was such a big part of the plot and had an organic chemistry with V in a way River never had a chance to develop.

 

[Guest 4412420]

For me the big problem about Kerry and even more for River is the lack of time.
This is also why I think it will be corrected later

I wish I had your level of optimism.

For Kerry, it feel it's not finish, even if we don't romance him.

I think that Kerry's questline itself is finished. His romance however, doesn't feel finished at all.

For River, it's even worse, "The Hunt" is for me one of the most Buggy quests in the game (before 1.23). Between the NPCs that River crushes, the car he explodes on his way to the farm and the music / sounds that do not launch or play indefinitely... It's even worse.

That car he crashes into is the van of those 6th Street guys Panam delivers the goods to. It's just a thing in Cyberpunk where the cars drive off to where the player can't see them and stop. But The Hunt definitely has bugs. I never saw River run over NPCs in my game but that endlessly looping music happened to me too.

Lack of romance dialogue aside, I think another thing Kerry and River need is a relic malfunction scene. It was nicely utilized with Judy and Panam to show their more caring side which helped to develop connection with V, be it romantic or platonic. River only gets the optional talk if you romance him, and with Kerry we're left guessing whether he even knows that the biochip is killing V.

I'm not sure where to put one for River. I'd say the morning after Following the River but Joss walks in, so I'm not sure. With Kerry I'd put it at the end of Off the Leash, when V steps away from the railing. V starts feeling weak or groans in pain, Kerry notices it. Que the talk. I'm genuinely surprised that they don't have these kind of scenes, as they could have helped to develop their friendship or romance with V, just like with the girls. But I think this is even less likely to be added.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I wish I had your level of optimism.

It's so obvious that there is an imbalance, that I can hardly imagine that could be intentional, above all after having created such characters/stories like Panam and Judy (really, really great), CDPR said to themself :
"Kerry it's not quite finished and it's not perfect, but that's good enough... And River, whatever, we don't care"

Maybe I'm too optimistic, maybe I'm a little bit naive. But I hope I'm right, if not, that's will be really annoying
(if all the romances were "bad", well I will be less optimistic for sure... But it's not the case at all)

 

[seracy]

I hope the first major expansion will be about romances and rebalance that.
Because I would like that all the players have the same feeling than me about their romance (and Judy):
Oh godamnit ! CDPR, you rock ! It's soooo good
If I have one thing to remember in particular about Cyberpunk, it's not the story, not the city (even if it's gorgeous), not the gameplay, it is absolutely Judy... Pyramid Song is unforgettable for me.
Sadly, I'm not sure it's the same for those who romance River

This right here! I've hopped back in briefly a couple of times to check out the performance patches, but I haven't really played the game since January. After 6-ish months, this feeling still persists for me for the endings. When I read other people talking about their amazing experience with the Nomad ending it just leaves me wishing I had that experience. All these pieces come together in a great package but only for the female romances and there is no other ending like it.

River/Kerry drive up and break up with V (painfully) like 3 minutes before end credits. V had just said goodbyes to Johnny (my fav), then they're dumped by their male LI, then end credits. That Never Fade Away version was just brutal after all that. Unfortunately, this was the first ending I got. I did the Nomad ending once and NEVER again lol.

Post automatically merged: Aug 3, 2021

And it's such a shame. Goro was such a big part of the plot and had an organic chemistry with V in a way River never had a chance to develop.

IMO it would have been better to focus on adding Goro as a conditional romance instead of Meredith. Excluding joy toys, we got Meredith-Alt-Rogue scenes and zero dudes.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

River/Kerry drive up and break up with V (painfully) like 3 minutes before end credits. V had just said goodbyes to Johnny (my fav), then they're dumped by their male LI, then end credits. That Never Fade Away version was just brutal after all that. Unfortunately, this was the first ending I got. I did the Nomad ending once and NEVER again lol.

I have never romanced River nor Kerry, but in The Star Ending (leave with Panam) it's the same as the Sun ending for Judy/Panam ?
Where Judy leaves me like an old sock on the Penthouse's balcony...

 

[seracy]

I have never romanced River nor Kerry, but in The Star Ending (leave with Panam) it's the same as the Sun ending for Judy/Panam ?
Where Judy leaves me like an old sock on the Penthouse's balcony...

Yep! There's a breakup with River/Kerry if you leave, and there's a breakup with Panam/Judy if you stay.

The problem is that you'd expect the Sun with Kerry/River to be the happy one for them, but it's not. The conversations with River/Kerry are actually almost identical to the conversation with Judy (V is distant, LI is frustrated, the relationship is clearly strained, etc), except they don't dump you. That's it. Definitely not at all like the Nomad ending with Judy or Panam.

I'll add - Kerry in the Sun is a lot less negative than River, but has some similar tones.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Yep! There's a breakup with River/Kerry if you leave, and there's a breakup with Panam/Judy if you stay.

The problem is that you'd expect the Sun with Kerry/River to be the happy one for them, but it's not. The conversations with River/Kerry are actually almost identical to the conversation with Judy (V is distant, LI is frustrated, the relationship is clearly strained, etc), except they don't dump you. That's it. Definitely not at all like the Nomad ending with Judy or Panam.

I'll add - Kerry in the Sun is a lot less negative than River, but has some similar tones.

For be extremly simplist about the endings, all sound "quite" logic for me.

Spoiler

Projects :
Panam leave Night City (it's planned before).
Judy leave Night City (it's planned before).
Kerry stay in Night City (his life is here).
River stay in Night City (his familiy his here).

The endings :
Panam can help because Aldecaldos. Judy/Kerry/River can't.
The Devil : You're alone, nothing to said more here.
The Star (Nomad) : Panam leave with you, and if you romance her, Judy also come (she already wanted to leave Night City and she appear briefly at the very end). Kerry and River stay to Night City for their reasons (family, life,...)
The Sun : You will risk your life for a "heist" only for being a legend of Night City. Panam leave (obviously with the Nomads as planned), Judy leaves Night City because she don't want see you risk your life (or what's left) for this foolish dream. And maybe (not sure) Kerry and River for the same reasons. They are all (Kerry/River/Judy/Panam) disgust by your choice to do that, in my opinion.

So no, for me the "big" problem is before the endings
Panam it's great.
Judy it's great (I have no doubt about that).
Kerry certainly not (not sure, but even as "friend", I find his quest line pretty great).
River not great at all (even as friend, it's not as great. Maybe simply the evening with Joss & kids).

So CDPR have to do something before the ending at first, because the lack is already here

 

[larrackell]

Definitely not at all like the Nomad ending with Judy or Panam.

And lately, that's been my biggest gripe when it comes to the endings. It'd be one thing if the Sun was the boys as hopeful as the girls in the Star. Like, I get the story is different in the Sun vs the Star and I get that the Star is the "good" ending - and the theming is a different conversation for a different thread. It's just fucked up that the Sun is "Hey, at least he didn't leave you!" when it comes to the romance.

 

[seracy]

So no, for me the "big" problem is before the endings
Panam it's great.
Judy it's great (I have no doubt about that).
Kerry certainly not (not sure, but even as "friend", I find his quest line pretty great).
River not great at all (even as friend, it's not as great. Maybe simply the evening with Joss & kids).

So CDPR have to do something before the ending at first, because the lack is already here

I agree 100%. Personally I tend to be more forgiving of clunky romance quests if I like how the character's arc fits alongside player character and if the ending has a good payoff. So that's why the endings bothered me more.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

In fact for the end,
It need an ending where V stay in Night City (even dying), but without this dream to be a Night City Legend. An ending where V just want to leave in Night City (it's very risky because Arasaka certainely want kill V, but hey...), with his/her romance (except Panam, because she leave Night City anyway).

In the Sun ending, all the characters are mad because V always dream to be a Legend even after all the past events...
like "You're serious ? Wasn't that enough ? I'm fed up bye"

But even with that, it doesn't fill the void for River or Kerry before (something would be missing anyway).

 

[GogRelvas]

For be extremly simplist about the endings, all sound "quite" logic for me.

Spoiler

Projects :
Panam leave Night City (it's planned before).
Judy leave Night City (it's planned before).
Kerry stay in Night City (his life is here).
River stay in Night City (his familiy his here).

The endings :
Panam can help because Aldecaldos. Judy/Kerry/River can't.
The Devil : You're alone, nothing to said more here.
The Star (Nomad) : Panam leave with you, and if you romance her, Judy also come (she already wanted to leave Night City and she appear briefly at the very end). Kerry and River stay to Night City for their reasons (family, life,...)
The Sun : You will risk your life for a "heist" only for being a legend of Night City. Panam leave (obviously with the Nomads as planned), Judy leaves Night City because she don't want see you risk your life (or what's left) for this foolish dream. And maybe (not sure) Kerry and River for the same reasons. They are all (Kerry/River/Judy/Panam) disgust by your choice to do that, in my opinion.

So no, for me the "big" problem is before the endings
Panam it's great.
Judy it's great (I have no doubt about that).
Kerry certainly not (not sure, but even as "friend", I find his quest line pretty great).
River not great at all (even as friend, it's not as great. Maybe simply the evening with Joss & kids).

So CDPR have to do something before the ending at first, because the lack is already here

About the endings

Spoiler: Spoiler

I can see V going with River as Johnny goes with Rogue alone also. Not Kerry though unless his help would be a distraction like Samurai performed back in 2013(?)