[SPOILER] New ending Mitch and Panam

[ChiliDragon]

Ok, I guess I need to add some infos here

For what reason do you think Songbird pierced the black wall?
Not for her own sake that's for sure... Songbird did it because Myers order her to do it. In the same way as Myers ordered her to "betray" Reed years before (something that has haunted her ever since).

So why does she die?
Because she pierced the black wal, for Myers. So if someone risked the life of everyone on the planet by piercing the black wall, it's Myers and the NUSA, not Songbird.

Why she planned the whole shity crash?
Because for Myers and by consequences the NUSA, Songbird is a atomic bomb for them... She the living proof that by piercing the black wall, Myers and NUSA broke the international laws. Which can lead to another corpo war, but it would be the world vs NUSA. A war they sure will loose.
Myers keep a leach and a close look on her. Songbird don't have any other solution to get out, NUSA and Myers would never let her go (alive).
Either she keep doing what Myers order and die, either she try to escape, even with a shity plan...

Why did Songbird lie to V?
The same reason as V lied to Hanako. Hanako reveal you everything she know about Mikoshi because V agreed to help her... so except if you followed the Devil ending, V "lied" to Hanako too and at the end, she die because V didn't help her.

In my point of view, there are no reason to side with Myers/NUSA either
Yes, Songbird lied to V, Yes she killed people... But what do you think Myers will do if she get her hands on Songbird? She will simply stop what she did, she will become a "nice" president and will be respectful of the laws. No, she won't.... She specially asked to Reed to keep her head intact for a good reason... Continue her evil schemes and keep using the black wall as a weapon.

So again, nothing is full white or black here. But if you ask me and for what I gathered in the expansion, Songbird is the lesser evil compared to Myers/NUSA and by far

Hey, I never claimed that Songbird wasn't sympathetic or didn't have good reasons behind her actions. I only claimed that when V finds out the truth that from V'S POINT OF VIEW, there's no reason for him to still side with her and help her.

Every reason to still side with her comes down to Out Of Character knowledge and meta gaming. Or pure emotional sympathy.

Addressing your points one at a time.

So why does she die?

Be that as it may...we're not assigning who is most at fault here. Who, currently, is unexploded ordinance who might end the entire human race if she "blows" in the present? Song. I don't disagree with you on Myers' moral guilt. But, again, that's not the choice we're making. Disarming the bomb doesn't absolve the person who SET it no, but it's the most immediate, most pressing need.

Why she planned the whole shity crash?

Songbird's motivations are actually really well actualized in the writing. This part I have no objection to. WHY she acted this way is understandable...relatable...downright HUMAN. People want to live. But, I actually wasn't JUST referring to this. At the pivotal moment if you side with her and she does her thing...she causes hundreds, possibly thousands, more innocent deaths then and there too. You fight your way back through the marketplace that you've travelled any number of times before...filled with shopkeepers, hell...that damn robot that you manage to fix and reactivate for no reward.

But from a V perspective...what does it change? Again, Myers is morally culpable, but from V's perspective...is Songbird a good person? Is she worth laying down your life for?

She's lied to you and killed thousands of innocents to save herself. It is UNDERSTANDABLE...but...

You are LITERALLY one of the people she was willing to sacrifice to save herself.

Why did Songbird lie to V?

And again....so what? You can understand her motivations. but, once more, the argument to save her relies on meta gaming at this point....not V's point of view.

Myers is a total bitch sure. But, well, survival of the whole human race at stake basically trumps everything. Morally, the best arguments are either return Songbird and hope that NUSA has a vested interest in STAYING ALIVE and thus stabilizing her and preventing a full breech of the Blackwall...or killing her like she asks to end the threat.

Delivering her into some anonymous third party's hands with some sort of vague promise that it'll all turn out okay? Waaaaay down the list of rational choices.

She herself doesn't even know who arranged her flight, their motivations, their abilities, etc. Total blind leap of faith to hand a global WMD over.

Song is a one person global thermonuclear arsenal. If she goes off it is a global killer. The key is on the "person" part of it. She talks and has a mind and a personality. And that tugs at the heartstrings. Maybe she should never have been "made" to begin with, but you may as well argue against mankind having developed nuclear weapons. In a vacuum, yes, maybe we shouldn't have. The reality is that we did and it is better that they are in the hands of state actors with understood motivations than a complete wild card.

Do you want a nuke in the hands of a state government or some random ass terrorist cell that you know nothing about and can't predict?

 

[CS554]

Not that familiar with Blackhand "history", so correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know what he really become.
He's alive? He work for Militech since? He fled? He's dead?
As far as I know, his fate is "unknown" until now
And even if he's alive, like Rogue he would be the exception... Everybody else involved in the assault and at the Atlantis were "exterminated".

Some interview of Mike Pondsmith, he said Blackhand isn't in CP 2077 because he isn't done with the character yet, so we know that character lives.

What comes to the rest of the assault group, it was particularly dangerous op, but how it would have been any different if it had gone like Johnny remembered it? For edgerunners in general, how many we found on rooftops and other places dead, killed when doing simple contract via fixer? I just don't see some kind of magical karma being factor in cyberpunk and the endings. Mr. Blue Eyes hardly is a solo act but rather presents some faction too, so this theory might be good to troll the Sun ending fans though, haha.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Do you want a nuke in the hands of a state government or some random ass terrorist cell that you know nothing about and can't predict?

In fact, that's my point, Songbird never breach the black wall because she want to... But because Myers ordered it. So if Songbird go to the moon, she won't breach the black wall again. If she do, she will die, again. It would be like after the ending(s), does V will slot a Relic in his neuroport again? Surely not

But if you send Songbird to Myers/NUSA, she will keep breaching the black wall for Myers, that's for sure. And not because Songbird want to, because she don't have the choice... She's considered as a tool by Myers, and tools aren't allowed to decide anything. Loved when Reed said that Songbird still "working" for the FIA at the end... Come on Reed, like if she really want to, better to say that she was turned to be a FIA slave.

Post automatically merged: Nov 4, 2023

Little edit
It's pretty much the same situation as the base game endings.
On one side, you side with Alt, she kill almost everyone in the tower, civilians included, but Soul Killer and Mikoshi are destroyed and Arasaka can no longer use it which will save many lives in the future (knowing that Yorinobu will keep sabotage Arasaka from inside).
On the other side, you side with Arasaka, you spare a bunch of people in the tower, sure. But Arasaka will keep using Soulkiller and Mikoshi as they always did and will still dominate the world by the fear.

Nothing is black or white, but at the end, well corpo remain the biggest evil

What comes to the rest of the assault group, it was particularly dangerous op, but how it would have been any different if it had gone like Johnny remembered it?

Ok, dangerous, but still... Militech led the assault against Arasaka tower, paid the mercenaries and supplied the little nuclear bomb. Arasaka triggered his huge bomb which destroyed the city center and killed thousands of innocent people. But the two corpos rushed to erase the traces (including killing the surviving mercenaries) and put all the blame on Johnny.
Nope, it's not us. We have nothing to do with this!

So again, except for Rogue or Blackhand, it turn out badly for all mercenaries involved... And not because of the operation, but because both of corpos didn't want to be tied to the disaster.

 

[ChiliDragon]

In fact, that's my point, Songbird never breach the black wall because she want to... But because Myers ordered it. So if Songbird go to the moon, she won't breach the black wall again. If she do, she will die, again. It would be like after the ending(s), does V will slot a Relic in his neuroport again? Surely not

But if you send Songbird to Myers/NUSA, she will keep breaching the black wall for Myers, that's for sure. And not because Songbird want to, because she don't have the choice... She's considered as a tool by Myers, and tools aren't allowed to decide anything. Loved when Reed said that Songbird still "working" for the FIA at the end... Come on Reed, like if she really want to, better to say that she was turned to be a FIA slave.

Post automatically merged: Nov 4, 2023

Little edit
It's pretty much the same situation as the base game endings.
On one side, you side with Alt, she kill almost everyone in the tower, civilians included, but Soul Killer and Mikoshi are destroyed and Arasaka can no longer use it which will save many lives in the future (knowing that Yorinobu will keep sabotage Arasaka from inside).
On the other side, you side with Arasaka, you spare a bunch of people in the tower, sure. But Arasaka will keep using Soulkiller and Mikoshi as they always did and will still dominate the world by the fear.

Nothing is black or white, but at the end, well corpo remain the biggest evil

I don't disagree completely with your premise of non black/whiteness.

I disagree with a certain interpretation of things.

How I view Song is that she has breached the Blackwall and "leakage" is already happening. Think how the Reavers work in Mass Effect. She's in the process of being consumed/possessed. Indocrinated.

One breach is enough. She's damaged. Corrupted. Breaking. Broken. Whether she KEEPS reaching back across the Blackwall or not is irrelevant at this point. It's already done. The link...the breach...is there. Something has a foothold.

 

[Mr. Newmark]

Dat's better than a wiki or let's play. I only read the sprawl trilogy and watched blade runner for 25years keep it coming oh there is a YouTube series about cyberpunk in media I also watched don't know the channel right now indigo gaming or so... I will try to read the discussion later so laterz ;',)

 

[LeKill3rFou]

How I view Song is that she has breached the Blackwall and "leakage" is already happening. Think how the Reavers work in Mass Effect. She's in the process of being consumed/possessed. Indocrinated.

One breach is enough. She's damaged. Corrupted. Breaking. Broken. Whether she KEEPS reaching back across the Blackwall or not is irrelevant at this point. It's already done. The link...the breach...is there. Something has a foothold.

In my opinion, it is quite revelant
She's considered as a "nuke" because if she keep breaching the black wall, she can release rogue AIs. Rogue AIs which are the real threat for humanity, not Songbird herself.

-If you send her to the moon, she (a ripperdoc) will use the matrix to undo what the black wall did (a bit like the matrix should do to V, undoing what the relic did). So as long as she use the matrix and don't breaching the black wall again, she's inoffensive. I can't imagine she would, because she was forced to do it and above all, she would die again...
-If you send her to Myers/NUSA, they will keep using her to breach the black wall and possibly release rogue AIs (in the ending, Reed say they keep using her anyway). So for sure, they will continue to do with her what they always did, breaching the black wall and threaten the whole humanity for Myers/NUSA own evil schemes.

Beside, Songbird is also a "nuke" because if the world knew what she did on Myers/NUSA orders, that will literally "destroy" the NUSA and Myers (i.e they intentionally broke the laws about the black wall. Laws that every countries and corporations in the world signed).
That's why Myers want to catch her no matter what. And like a good "patriot", Reed decide to follow orders even if it mean turning his friend into a slave, sad...

On side note, I stick with what Johnny say... Surviving ok, but not at all cost. So yes, she lied, yes she killed innocent, but at the end, even if you don't like her, Myers and NUSA threat is way greater anyway.

 

[CS554]

Ok, dangerous, but still... Militech led the assault against Arasaka tower, paid the mercenaries and supplied the little nuclear bomb. Arasaka triggered his huge bomb which destroyed the city center and killed thousands of innocent people. But the two corpos rushed to erase the traces (including killing the surviving mercenaries) and put all the blame on Johnny.
Nope, it's not us. We have nothing to do with this!

Like you described, it was a black operation to begin with. Arasaka's own nuke was a secret too, which led to situation where both parties had black op gone south / breaking treaties level disaster in their hands.

So again, except for Rogue or Blackhand, it turn out badly for all mercenaries involved... And not because of the operation, but because both of corpos didn't want to be tied to the disaster.

Yes, obviously both corporations had motive to make it go away. Nothing magical here and we are talking one pivotal op in history that sort of failed in spectacular fashion leading the other things.

This has no bearing I can think of, for what with V's coma and Nomads and Panam moving on. Besides V can side with NUSA but then, instead of going to medical operation, can choose go meeting with Hanako and do whatever ending. So no, I really can't see any kind of karma connecting NUSA to Mitch dialogue here.

 

[Nahoward]

In the wrong thread >.>

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Yes, obviously both corporations had motive to make it go away. Nothing magical here and we are talking one pivotal op in history that sort of failed in spectacular fashion leading the other things.

This has no bearing I can think of, for what with V's coma and Nomads and Panam moving on. Besides V can side with NUSA but then, instead of going to medical operation, can choose go meeting with Hanako and do whatever ending. So no, I really can't see any kind of karma connecting NUSA to Mitch dialogue here.

No, nothing "related", but I simply talked about the general feeling of the "NUSA ending". It's a "corpo" ending, so no matter what, it can't be a "good/happy" ending. It was predictable (for me^^). V's cure itself is already more than I expected

But like I said, Mitch's call really lack of explanations about why Nomads and Panam moved on. We just know they moved on... Unlike Judy for example. If I understood, we know she left night city as planned, met someone else and got married. In short, she started a new life and moved on. So obviously, she won't throw evrything she built since because of a ghost arises from the past.

 

[Heartstopper]

I don't know why people get this impression. There's nothing in the relationship between Mitch and panam to suggest there's any romantic interest either way and it isn't true that Mitch shows up and supports Panam without question, when you first meet him he literally refuses to help her. My impression of Mitch's call to V was that he felt awkward about calling V because he is generally a nice guy and is a friend of V and also doesn't want to have to deal with Panam's reaction if V keeps contacting her.

In any case the real answer is that the ending in relation to male V and Panam's is bullshit and badly written.

Same reason people always try to pair characters in their head-cannon that would never be together in any sane universe. Desperate for validation of how they see the world around them.

 

[TheLocalHentai]

Agree that the writing was a little heavy handed in regards to making the story "more cyberpunk" so that it needed to shit on V for very contrived reasons. Friends and the love interest should have been there for V but depending how deep the relationship is, how long they're willing to wait for.

There are dogs that are more loyal than the new ending's Panam, it happens enough that you can find videos of their reaction. If V was in a coma for ten years, MAYBE, since people would think him dead but two years? It especially doesn't make sense since she knows what's going on with the relic and V is in a very extraordinary situation which most likely requires extraordinary solutions.

lack of explanations about why Nomads and Panam moved on.

They posted up near NC because of the potential corpo contract that Saul was trying to put together, Panam being part of the leadership broke the silence the other Aldecaldos were having and after the strike on the wraiths and millitech, the deal fell through, so they already had a foot out the door. Them leaving NC was already in the works, Panam was most likely going to ask V if he wanted her to stay with him.

As for So Mi, she's was always destined to be dead. The blue eyes man is most likely a rogue AI and she was already infected by the blackwall, her motivations are so all over the place that she's probably being manipulated or coerced into flying to the moon.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

They posted up near NC because of the potential corpo contract that Saul was trying to put together, Panam being part of the leadership broke the silence the other Aldecaldos were having and after the strike on the wraiths and millitech, the deal fell through, so they already had a foot out the door. Them leaving NC was already in the works, Panam was most likely going to ask V if he wanted her to stay with him.

By "moved on" I don't mean "leaving" Night City. We know after the queen of the highway that Aldecaldos will leave NC soon. I mean why she don't call nor answer to V
Unlike Judy who left NC (as planned), got married and build a new life so understable why V does no longer have a place in her new life, for Panam and Aldecaldos, we don't know (I think, as far as I remember^^).

 

[CS554]

No, nothing "related", but I simply talked about the general feeling of the "NUSA ending". It's a "corpo" ending, so no matter what, it can't be a "good/happy" ending. It was predictable (for me^^). V's cure itself is already more than I expected

I remembered this discussion while checking other things from the cyberpunk wiki, and according to their knowledge of source material, Spider Murphy survived the op and her status as of 2077 is unknown and Lyle Thompson is alive still in 2077.

For me V having a life ahead is a good ending.

But like I said, Mitch's call really lack of explanations about why Nomads and Panam moved on. We just know they moved on... Unlike Judy for example. If I understood, we know she left night city as planned, met someone else and got married. In short, she started a new life and moved on. So obviously, she won't throw evrything she built since because of a ghost arises from the past.

What I got from it was Panam trying to find V and then failing that wasn't exactly good for hear head and she may have been recovering and getting her own life back.

Didn't really came to think about how similar kind of closure like we get with Judy might had not work with Panam, even if that is what this topic is about. I only came to think that if I had played female V, Judy, River, well there is Kerry but V has no Silverhand engram anymore. Panam having another lover wouldn't work as with Judy as she is very different kind of person.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I remembered this discussion while checking other things from the cyberpunk wiki, and according to their knowledge of source material, Spider Murphy survived the op and her status as of 2077 is unknown and Lyle Thompson is alive still in 2077.

For me V having a life ahead is a good ending.

Yeah, in Cyberpunk Red (The Fall Of The Towers), almost everyone survive to tha assault (don't remember if there is much after in the book).
But I was referring to what Jeremiah Grayson said on the Ebunike to V (and Johnny) about Rogue :
"Have you ever wondered why Rogue is still alive, unlike all those little scums of the Atlantis?"
"I really wonder what she had to do to be spared!"

So I assume that after the tower's events, most of those involved survived, but then Arasaka/Smasher assaulted the Altantis (the equivalent of the Afterlife in 2077, for the mercs and fixers) and killed everybody (except Rogue). But I'm confident that some managed to survive, like Santiago. As Nomad, I'm pretty sure he was able to flee Night City with his family. But at the end, the Atlantis, the heart of mercs/fixers world in Night City at time was totally annihilated (hence the "birth" of the Afterlife).

Didn't really came to think about how similar kind of closure like we get with Judy might had not work with Panam, even if that is what this topic is about. I only came to think that if I had played female V, Judy, River, well there is Kerry but V has no Silverhand engram anymore. Panam having another lover wouldn't work as with Judy as she is very different kind of person.

Yep, but at least for Judy, there is a reasonable/believable reason why she would avoid V. But with Panam, it's just from Mitch's call and something like "Sorry, she won't answer, so please, don't call anymore!"
To be honest, it's rather "light"...

 

[SladeOP]

I know somebody already wrote it, but there is really nothing between Panam and Mitch. Panam has even the same stupid reaction if you play female V, seriously it doesn't make any sense.

Like some already stated, relationships never mattered in this game and the option to live on is everytime the worse one. Phantom Liberty felt like the Arasaka Quest Arc, which I hated the most. That's why, even though she lied to me, in my first playthrough I helped So Mi. Not sure, it felt right.
I mean, along the way you find out more about Myers, but it just gets worse if you side with Reed. The roboter is annoying and in my opinion So Mi's action makes sense. Of course it's just my interpretation, but I believe that So Mi intended to help V.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Like some already stated, relationships never mattered in this game and the option to live on is everytime the worse one. Phantom Liberty felt like the Arasaka Quest Arc, which I hated the most. That's why, even though she lied to me, in my first playthrough I helped So Mi. Not sure, it felt right.
I mean, along the way you find out more about Myers, but it just gets worse if you side with Reed. The roboter is annoying and in my opinion So Mi's action makes sense. Of course it's just my interpretation, but I believe that So Mi intended to help V.

Agreed, except about one thing
Songbird (So Mi) knew from the beginning, so even before contacting V, that the neural matrix will be for single use.

 

[CS554]

Yeah, in Cyberpunk Red (The Fall Of The Towers), almost everyone survive to tha assault (don't remember if there is much after in the book).
But I was referring to what Jeremiah Grayson said on the Ebunike to V (and Johnny) about Rogue :
"Have you ever wondered why Rogue is still alive, unlike all those little scums of the Atlantis?"
"I really wonder what she had to do to be spared!"

So I assume that after the tower's events, most of those involved survived, but then Arasaka/Smasher assaulted the Altantis (the equivalent of the Afterlife in 2077, for the mercs and fixers) and killed everybody (except Rogue). But I'm confident that some managed to survive, like Santiago. As Nomad, I'm pretty sure he was able to flee Night City with his family. But at the end, the Atlantis, the heart of mercs/fixers world in Night City at time was totally annihilated (hence the "birth" of the Afterlife).

Grayson is a bitter fuck trying to play V against Rogue and trying to make him working for Smasher not that bad. His "whataboutism" is an example of writing life like characters.

I don't see this going anywhere relevant, but I take Rogue's character as example of character that is relatable because whatever deal she made, that guaranteed not only her but life of her child too. Instead of doing something stupid she did something clever, she might not have done if Johnny weren't around.

So what could mess all that up? Johnny comes back to play with her head, doesn't even give a fuck, not Rogue, not Arasaka really but has primary goal to be with Alt. Yet, Arasaka, Rogue, one aspect what they were for Johnny was to mirror his own perfection. Thank goodness CDPR wrote these characters like they did and not some black and white caricatures.

Yep, but at least for Judy, there is a reasonable/believable reason why she would avoid V. But with Panam, it's just from Mitch's call and something like "Sorry, she won't answer, so please, don't call anymore!"
To be honest, it's rather "light"...

That's not what Judy says and that's not what Mitch is saying either, not this is not even a reply to what I actually wrote.

Realistic limitation for all the possibilities here what CDPR could do is mentioned earlier in this topic, and others PL ending topic. They didn't want to make some ultimate ending locked behind paywall. What's left to debate is what Mitch actually meant and if there might have been better way to convey the idea about moving on.

 

[Mr. Newmark]

Okay what I get from it, the Panama ending was bad for both... so hurting tragedy no happily ever after, then I would try really hard to meta.

I have a fem m V Savefile with all endings unlocked from release

Post automatically merged: Nov 8, 2023

Sry cannot edit it seem, anyway, Panama was not my l.i. as a lesbian V but my male V will be straight of course, build us try to go need no help, thing is even if cannon ending is sad, I ll try to do a aldecados run with Panama and all the crew, origin has most content later and being a soft hearted guy I try to do romanced game srsly not like chic flics. I hope this songbird stuff I keep reading isn't to interfere in my game, or I ragequit and play my Skyrim Breton vamp fish again oh he was named Billy MaCulloch


Anyways my health and train life is keeping me to reaching out with msgs and calls to irl friends I know I seem a bit like a rascal but it would be nice to get two or three messages this night... I won't share them it s more a courtesy -m.

Post automatically merged: Nov 8, 2023

I hate this VPN PanAm jeeze not the country

 

[mightymatt27]

Loved when Reed said that Songbird still "working" for the FIA at the end... Come on Reed, like if she really want to, better to say that she was turned to be a FIA slave.

From the facial gestures they did with him and Elba's subtle delivery, I felt one could tell he knew what he was saying was BS and just the company line. In his own way he's trapped.

Post automatically merged: Nov 10, 2023

Okay... so this is random but I've seen the title of this thread a few dozen times, New ending Mitch and Panam.
Every
Single
Time
... it triggers my brain to read it to the tune of John Mellencamp's Jack & Diane.

New ending, Mitch and Panam
Two Aldacados in the badlands

I'm sorry. I'll see myself out.

Post automatically merged: Nov 10, 2023

New ending to main story brought so many thoughts but there is one that is boggling me: Panam ragequitting from relationship with V, even tough she supported him going for cure if there is a chance. So my thoughts are that Mitch was this whole time in love with Panam but she always seen him as close friend and nothing more.
Isn't that strange that whenever Panam does or goes even with V, Mitch always show up and supports her without any question like puppy in love?

Now when V is away Mitch is in relationship with her and told her bullshit about V being dead, then he lied to V about Panam being mad.
So V didn't got screwed by Panam at all, but by Mitch who is real snake among Aldecados.

This is a really weird reading of this whole thing. Are you saying that just showing up makes him a "puppy in love"? It isn't weird at at, they're family. Seriously they like, never shut up about it.

Also Mitch forms something of a friendship w/ V on his own. By your (very week) rationale, we can just as easily say Mitch wants V all to himself.

This concept completely ignores the character of Mitch and the culture of the Aldecados and writes in a fan-fic for The Real Housewives of the Badlands.